Topic: G4 Interview with Iwata Reveals New Details

[Ian Sane]

"Well, Nintendo just changed the rule book. You think new or you die."

That true in theory but there's two other console where that rule doesn't apply.  It's really more like "think new or Nintendo dies".  Any third party that doesn't want to follow Nintendo's new "rule" will just do what they did when Nintendo decided that cartridges were the way to go: ditch Nintendo and make more money on another console.

I'll agree that games are getting pretty stagnant but I think that's more to do with Sony and MS having more influence as Sega has gone third party and Nintendo's marketshare has slided.  I think if Nintendo goes off on a tangent to "avoid" the competition it will give them even LESS influence on the industry as a whole.  I think the ideal solution if for a REAL gaming company like Nintendo to rise back up.  Marketshare has more influence in the game industry than anything else.  So Nintendo going all niche on us and targeting non-gamers is probably going to make the rest of the industry even more stagnant.

And there are still great innovative games made today with the current design.  Pikmin for example is a major example.  Another one would be Katamari Damacy.  And despite all the hatred it gets from Nintendo fanboys who act like it's the worse thing to happen to gaming ever Grand Theft Auto III is one of the most innovative games to have been released in YEARS.  New things can still be done.  I think it would better for Nintendo to demonstrate how the current form of gaming can still breed new ideas instead of seperating themselves from the rest of the industry and turning it into an "old way" vs. "new way" battle.  If Nintendo is a niche company they have no influence and the industry will just get worse.  They have to be a major player to improve the industry and they won't be one if they're all "we're not competing" and "we're targeting a new market".

Plus many of Nintendo's least inspired games tend to come when they're trying too hard to be innovative.  That's where stuff like the WATERPACK OF DOOM and some of their really bad DS games come from.  When they're just trying to make a better sequel or the best game they can they innovate more naturally.  I think it's because their thought process is more to achieve quality and thus new ideas come about as a way to make things better.  When their thought process is to achieve innovation it doesn't turn out as good because they're trying to think of an innovative concept first and then come up with an idea for it instead of just coming up with a good idea and innovating as a need to make the idea work.  Innovation must come as a result of great ideas.  Otherwise you're like someone sitting at a table and trying to be an inventor.

[trip1eX]

Why are some of you all entirely too dense to  understand that tilting left or right can each be a function?  Did ya not see the video where the 'chic' is flicking the controller up in a controlled manner to simulate jumping?  

Does that not show you the possibilities that many functions won't need buttons and won't be 'tiring.'

You can also tilt the controller up or down.  You can zoom in and out by moving the controller closer/farther away from the TV.  

Do you somehow think these things will be too difficult?  I mean you use the argument that it only has two buttons to make it look easy to use, but then you use the opposite argument to explain the gryo functions.  So Nintendo makes it look easy to use with the buttons but the gryo will be too difficult for their intended audience?

Has Nintendo not used gryos in GBA games?  Was that stuff not easy to use?  

Did you read up on the gyro technology in 3d mice that have existed on the market for years?  Those mice are capable of mapping keys to gestures.  And they do it accurately.  I'll find a link to a review of one.  The company that makes 'em is the company Nintendo licensed the technology from 4 years ago.

Mapping gestures is a matter of good software.  You've seen how controls in games depend on how the game interprets your movements.  HOw some games have really tight controls and others have really loose controls.  So current controllers aren't immune to bad controls.

And the way the software interprets control movement in 3d space is the same as in 2d space except you've got that extra dimension to deal with.  

So a 3d controller will really be no different.  It's up to the developer to make responsive accurate controls.  The hardware technology is there.  IT's up the developer to play with the controller and find the right limits for each gryo function.  IT's a matter of playtesting just like before.

The power to detect simple motions such as shaking the controller or waving it in a small circle are entirely possible to accurately do.  You're just detecting movement in 3d space instead of 2d.  

Anyway none of you naysayers seems to address this extra functionality the Revolution does have.  You just choose to ignore it I guess and live in your own little world.  Your brains can translate from button to motion.  Thankfully NIntendo totally see this.

Come on use your imagination.      

[zakkiel]

This argument is pointless. Either the controller will deliver good game experiences, or it won't. We can go round in circles about sustainability (why would it get old when traditional controllers don't?) or feasibility, or attractiveness, or whatever. At the end of the day there's ONE genre that won't control well, two that we know will have their control improved immeasurably, multitudes of other possible genres waiting to be born, and a bunch of tradtional console genres that the jury is out on. That's the entire extent of our knowledge until games are shown. We don't know if the multitudes of gamers that stopped fifteen years ago will finally come back or not. We don't know if third parties will rise to the challenge or not.  Some of us are excited about the possibilities; others gnaw their fingernails in anxiety at the thought of something different. The lines between won't change for at least another six months.

[ShyGuy]

Wow, Ian knows more than Iwata, Miyamoto, and Reggie combined!

Come on, there's still innovation to be found in the 2D era of games, Innovation can be found making games for the Atari 2600. For that matter innovation can be found in board games, and they've been around thousands of years!

We shouldn't stick to an old format just because the innovation well isn't dry.

[ruby_onix]

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All that really does is let you play SNES games on it (you can already play NES),

Adding one entire generation to the abilities of the controller is no small feat. It brings it up from a style that some of us might be nostalgic for, but was actually painfully limited at the time. There's a REASON why Sega and Nintendo started adding buttons. Someone said "button counts just keep going up and up"? Yeah, they did. Up until the N64. Then they backed down to four main face buttons, which is probably the greatest balance of function vs complexity that anyone can hope for.

Also, once you bring this up from NES to SNES, you can match more recent generations of control with just the analog nunchuck. Add two meager buttons (and triggers that are seperate from that "B" trigger) and you've got the control capabilities of four straight generations of market-leading consoles (NES, SNES, PlayStation, PS2). And three out of four Nintendo consoles (NES, SNES, GameCube).

Plus it's not like the NES couldn't use two more buttons. The official NES Max and NES Advantage (and likely some others too) had four face buttons. Turbofire, dude.

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which I think is a bit unesessary adding all that. TWO sets of 4 buttons? Why?

It only looks like "all that" because all the buttons are doubled, because Nintendo came up with that idea, for holding the controller in a more traditional "sideways" manner. I don't object to that idea. I think it works. However, it makes the controller look like it has more buttons than it actually does, which seems to fly against Nintendo's lowest-common-denominator "non-gamer" concept.

Those lower two buttons on the controller are redundant, and not meant to be used (unless you're holding the controller sideways). Even if we did use and count them as face buttons, like some are suggesting, they're in a downright lousy position. Worse than the Black and White buttons on the Xbox's Controller-S. Bring them up. add a proper "B" button. And a second trigger. That's it. That's all you'd need. Five generations (if we want to count the PS3, which Iwata does) instead of one.

[Ian Sane]

"Why are some of you all entirely too dense to understand that tilting left or right can each be a function? Did ya not see the video where the 'chic' is flicking the controller up in a controlled manner to simulate jumping?"

Tilting left and right are two functions.  But they are not the same as pressing a button.  Different controller functions are appropriate for different uses.  Sometimes a tilt will work better, sometimes a digital button press will.  The Rev controller design assumes that tilting and moving is ALWAYS appropriate and will work fine for any situation where another button could do the trick.  Nintendo is saying that there will never be a situation where more than four action buttons will be needed (and remember the "nunchuk" limits movement so to make use of motion control you really only get two buttons).  That is incredibly restrictive and short sighted particularly when games that require eight buttons already exist.  No one can say accurately that in every game that uses more than two or four buttons that motion control will be appropriate for the extra non-assigned functions.  They just put a couple more buttons on there and PROBLEM SOLVED.  They don't have to worry about anything testing their "only need two buttons" theory.

"You don't realize how great Ian thinks it is either."

To clear things up here's what I like about the Rev:

- good case design.  Small, highly stylish and marketable.  Big improvement over purple lunchbox.
- commitment to online with "90% of users" comments.
- FREE ONLINE!
- wireless controllers.
- very flexible backwards compatibility.  FOUR Cube controller slots?  Now that's being user-friendly.
- download service is cool as hell.
- not nearly as expensive as the competition
- motion control is a good idea if used correctly.
- optional DVD player.  A smart move to allow for wider appeal.
- it's Nintendo and I like them a lot more than Sony or MS.

What I don't like:
- restrictive controller design.  Could be way better with some extra buttons.
- overemphasis on non-gamers.  
- no HD support (minor issue)
- no ethernet jack.  Minor issue but I still don't want to have to buy something extra.

I loved practically everything I saw at E3 regarding the Rev.  I've grown more sour on it because Nintendo decided to needlessly restrict their controller because of this non-gamer focus which will have a ripple effect on the entire console.  All the good things they've done so far can all be undone by this one controller design.

[IceCold]

Oh hey, I just thought of this and I don't think anyone has mentioned an idea like it in here, so here it is..

OK, why don't they put the D-Pad on the BOTTOM of the remote, instead of the a-b buttons. Then, at the top, have three, or possibly four, face buttons. It would be perfect; the D-Pad could be used a secondary feature, and then the face buttons could be used as action buttons, along with the trigger and the analogue/trigger attachment.

And best of all, to play S/NES games, tilt it the OTHER WAY and use the D-Pad and face buttons. That would keep the same amount of buttons (as the small a-b combo would be gone) or at most add another one, but would be more functional.

So not a double set like Ruby's drawing, but a D-Pad at the bottom and one set at the top. I think that Ruby's looked way too congested and there were too many buttons, but this would be just fine.

Any flaws, other than the fact that there will be more than just the A button at the top which will scare away non-gamers? Because with this it would still have the same amount/one more button, but just placed differently.

[Ian Sane]

"It only looks like 'all that' because all the buttons are doubled, because Nintendo came up with that idea, for holding the controller in a more traditional 'sideways' manner. I don't object to that idea. I think it works. However, it makes the controller look like it has more buttons than it actually does, which seems to fly against Nintendo's lowest-common-denominator 'non-gamer' concept."

The first time I showed my Mom the controller the first thing she said was "how do you reach THOSE buttons?"  

Edit: That's not a bad idea IceCold.  My only concern is reaching the d-pad while playing vertically.  Eliminating the redundant buttons would be really good though and realistically for any d-pad game you're probably going to be playing it horizontally.

[MODE_RED]

I think Nintendo is missing out on TWO very useful features in their new controller:

(1 ) A recessed microphone on the top of the controller. The increase in cost is negligible, and it makes sense to have a mic on top, because the controller is already shaped like a microphone handle.

(2) Recessed speakers can emulate the noises of whatever imaginary object the player is holding, which adds to the suspension of disbelief.

By definition, gamers love games. I am a big fan of games (and therefore game developers) that make a conscious, concerted effort to "love" gamers as much as possible through feedback and ease of interaction.

Speakers and a mic built into the controller to supply additional feedback and interaction (i.e. LOVE) are large strides toward success for such small, and easily written-off inclusions.

I M A G I N E
Using the NRC as a gun.
Hearing gun shots, reloading, expending shells, clinking against walls, coming from the NRC.
Blowing in the mic to blow the smoke off of your gun.

I M A G I N E
Being a reporter using the NRC as a mic that you can talk into and hold out to onscreen characters to get them to talk to you. Even squeals next to a speaker. Or maybe its a secret mic/sound recorder hidden in something. Press a button to play back what was recorded, with the sound outputted to your NRC only.

Press a button and it becomes a camera, with complimentary zooming and clicking noises to boot.

I M A G I N E
The NRC is a talking VOODOO doll, all its buttons corresponding to parts of the voodoo doll's body.

Press a button, poke it in the eye. Choke it. Say LEGS on FIRE, etc.

When the VOODOO doll screams, the NRC rumbles and screams!

I M A G I N E
This is just for starters... I know lightsaber sound effects and the sound of your arm searing when your hand gets lopped off would make many Star Wars fans by a Revolution.

With the ability to add onto the NRC, built-in speakers and mic would be inexpendible.

I M A G I N E
You are blind, and the NRC is your "SEEING STICK." Whever you point, it tells you through visual imagery what is there.

Now I M A G I N E your seeing stick can transform into an EAGLE, a DOG, and more, just by your voice commands.

Using your voice and arm movements, you can command the stick to perform tasks for you, like retrieval.

I M A G I N E your seeing stick can transform from stick, to animal guide, to a weapon like a gun and back to a simple stick in endless combinations during combat.

By the sounds the stick (the NRC) makes, not just the onscreen cues, you can tell what it is you are currently holding and what it is doing.

[Ian Sane]

I'm not a fan of any sort of voice control.  I have concerns over motion control being interpreted correctly.  Voice control is a lot worse for that.

But the speaker on the remote idea is REALLY cool.  It's not worth hiking the price of the controller up for but it's a good idea.

[PaLaDiN]

Okay, this "can't reach the buttons!" thing is getting very old. Pick up a remote and press the buttons in that area. You can do it. It's not that hard... go ahead and try. You don't have to use the other hand. And the controller seems to be smaller than it looks.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

My god...you guys are all insane, microphones, extra triggers, more face buttons, these things are not needed!

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Bring them up. add a proper "B" button. And a second trigger. That's it. That's all you'd need.

It isn't necessary to add in the extra trigger and another button the controller with the nunchuk can already cover all the necessary controls .

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and remember the "nunchuk" limits movement so to make use of motion control you really only get two buttons

You're assuming the final version of the nunchuck will not be wireless, the one shown at TGS was the prototype.

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No one can say accurately that in every game that uses more than two or four buttons that motion control will be appropriate for the extra non-assigned functions. They just put a couple more buttons on there and PROBLEM SOLVED. They don't have to worry about anything testing their "only need two buttons" theory.

In the unlikely chance that they haven't taken this into account,  there is the controller shell, or the GC controller ports to cover that problem.

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So not a double set like Ruby's drawing, but a D-Pad at the bottom and one set at the top. I think that Ruby's looked way too congested and there were too many buttons, but this would be just fine.

This is reasonable, remember nintendo already said that the revo controller shown at TGS was a prototype and that some changes would likely occur.



 

[Ian Sane]

"You're assuming the final version of the nunchuck will not be wireless, the one shown at TGS was the prototype."

Fair enough.  I didn't think of that.

"In the unlikely chance that they haven't taken this into account, there is the controller shell, or the GC controller ports to cover that problem."

The controller shell will work if it's included with every controller and is promoted as something to actually be used and not just a SNES/N64 workaround.  The Cube controller isn't even an option.  No developer is going to design games to use a Cube controller a Rev owner may or may not have.  They can't even estimate what percentage of the userbase has one because the Cube is a whole different console and there's no way to determine what console any Cube controllers sold are used for.

[BigJim]

They could add those 2 things as attachments fairly easily.

I'm all for a QUALITY mic or headset attachment. If nothing else, I want the option to talk to people as I play against them (or strategize WITH them). I do it in real life with multi-player games and online with PC games, so why not with Rev players?

For idea #2, as long as the speakers are good quality, that could be a good idea. The only problem is that if it's not at least as good as TV speakers, they might sound like ass and be more annoying than immersive. Good speakers are usually a battery drain too.

This entire topic can go on forever. The bottom line is that if you're sold on the controller already, then good for you. Not yet being sold on it is valid also, whether the "sold" people like it or not.

I give them all the credit they deserve that the new potential uses are many and varied, but I'm not going to be sold on the controller until:

1. We see the final design.
2. We see real, fully functioning games. (demos, even MP, are not satisfactory to me since it was a controlled demo in a controlled environment for a controlled period of time.)
3. We see that we haven't lost more than we've gained in terms of *practical* functionality.
4. We see that epics aren't released at an even slower pace at the expense of non-games.

Motion and tilt is not an end-all-be-all solution for missing buttons. Neither is suggesting the D-pad adequately substitutes action buttons since using more than one action button at a time is often desired.

If they were to add x/y buttons to the bottom of the controller so that a sideway design would allow 4 action buttons (basically the same layout as the DS), I would probably be more easily sold.  Then I would *know* I'm not losing much functionality, and that the motion and tilt is *on top of* an already adequately functioning controller.

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Okay, this "can't reach the buttons!" thing is getting very old. Pick up a remote and press the buttons in that area. You can do it. It's not that hard... go ahead and try. You don't have to use the other hand. And the controller seems to be smaller than it looks.

I just happen to have my Tivo remote handy. This is the rundown. For me, there is a comfortable "thumb reach" of about 3 inches. That's the distance from the Tivo button at the top to the volume button closer to the center. As it translates to the NRC, the D-pad and A button are a no-brainer. The Select/Home/Start buttons LOOK like they're right around that 3" borderline from the d-pad. They could get annoying as action buttons because at that point my thumb would be bending inward and cramping to reach them. And of course the a/b buttons on the bottom would be out of the question.

At worst, they're not suitable as action buttons due to reach. At best, they could be annoying. And I have big hands with a size 12 ring.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

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The controller shell will work if it's included with every controller and is promoted as something to actually be used and not just a SNES/N64 workaround

I think the Nintendo spokesperson said it was intended to be used with traditional style games which would not work on the frestyle controller, in fact the Revo controller with Nunchuck fulfills the needs for N64 without the shell

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The Cube controller isn't even an option. No developer is going to design games to use a Cube controller a Rev owner may or may not have. They can't even estimate what percentage of the userbase has one because the Cube is a whole different console and there's no way to determine what console any Cube controllers sold are used for.

Fair enough

[ruby_onix]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
Oh hey, I just thought of this and I don't think anyone has mentioned an idea like it in here, so here it is..

OK, why don't they put the D-Pad on the BOTTOM of the remote, instead of the a-b buttons. Then, at the top, have three, or possibly four, face buttons. It would be perfect; the D-Pad could be used a secondary feature, and then the face buttons could be used as action buttons, along with the trigger and the analogue/trigger attachment.

And best of all, to play S/NES games, tilt it the OTHER WAY and use the D-Pad and face buttons. That would keep the same amount of buttons (as the small a-b combo would be gone) or at most add another one, but would be more functional.

So not a double set like Ruby's drawing, but a D-Pad at the bottom and one set at the top. I think that Ruby's looked way too congested and there were too many buttons, but this would be just fine.

Any flaws, other than the fact that there will be more than just the A button at the top which will scare away non-gamers? Because with this it would still have the same amount/one more button, but just placed differently.

That could really work. I already disliked having the buttons in such close proximity to the D-pad in the vertical position. Putting the D-pad at the bottom of the unit allows you to use it with your free hand. And the "lower" D-pad fits the style of the GameCube and other similar pads.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
- optional DVD player. A smart move to allow for wider appeal.

Oh yeah, has anyone guessed yet where Nintendo is going to attach that "dongle" to the Revolution, in order to enable DVD playback? It seems obvious now.

So the question is, can Nintendo control a DVD player with a remote that has a D-pad, one button, and a trigger, or are they going to have to add extra buttons to the DVD dongle?

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Okay, this "can't reach the buttons!" thing is getting very old. Pick up a remote and press the buttons in that area. You can do it. It's not that hard... go ahead and try. You don't have to use the other hand. And the controller seems to be smaller than it looks.

Tell that to someone with a Controller-S.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

We need a mighty photo of Reggie holding the NRC.  Then we'll realize how small it is.

[BigJim]

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Oh yeah, has anyone guessed yet where Nintendo is going to attach that "dongle" to the Revolution, in order to enable DVD playback? It seems obvious now.

So the question is, can Nintendo control a DVD player with a remote that has a D-pad, one button, and a trigger, or are they going to have to add extra buttons to the DVD dongle?

It's a physical part. They said it was going inside the system.

I think there are enough buttons for DVD playback.

Menu: Home button
Navigation: d-pad or motion sensors
Navigation Select: Select
Play/Pause: Start
Fast Forward: b
Rewind: a
Skip Forward: A
Skip Back: B

It's not every feature under the sun, and you might shuffle that example configuration around a bit, but it's adequate.

Edit: BTW, IceCold, your suggestion was very astute. That would be a much better configuration. It's a relatively small change but sounds like it makes a big difference. It's an easier way to accomplish my concern also.  

[Don'tHate742]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
Oh hey, I just thought of this and I don't think anyone has mentioned an idea like it in here, so here it is..

OK, why don't they put the D-Pad on the BOTTOM of the remote, instead of the a-b buttons. Then, at the top, have three, or possibly four, face buttons. It would be perfect; the D-Pad could be used a secondary feature, and then the face buttons could be used as action buttons, along with the trigger and the analogue/trigger attachment.

And best of all, to play S/NES games, tilt it the OTHER WAY and use the D-Pad and face buttons. That would keep the same amount of buttons (as the small a-b combo would be gone) or at most add another one, but would be more functional.

So not a double set like Ruby's drawing, but a D-Pad at the bottom and one set at the top. I think that Ruby's looked way too congested and there were too many buttons, but this would be just fine.

Any flaws, other than the fact that there will be more than just the A button at the top which will scare away non-gamers? Because with this it would still have the same amount/one more button, but just placed differently.

Nice work. I commend you. Although, if you added two more buttons to the a/b scheme so it resembled the SNES, you'd also have to add shoulder buttons correct?

Anyway, like BigJim mentioned I won't be sold till I see how the games actually control. If I see that hand-gestures are the substitute for buttons (such as morphing), I might be really really pissed off. Giggling a controller to morph Samus into a ball just doesn't sound good to me.

Who knows it just might work flawlessly, so i'll keep an open mind. However, I am still skeptical ESPECIALLY since Nintendo can easily solve this problem with both IceCold's and my own advice.

 

[ShyGuy]

BigJim, the controller is pretty small, if you see it in Iwata's hands. I think the 3 inch range will get you to the x y buttons no problem.

[ShyGuy]

The Morph Ball was the select button! how do these rumors get started?

[mantidor]

Ive said it twice, yet people dont read my posts

[zakkiel]

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(and remember the "nunchuk" limits movement so to make use of motion control you really only get two buttons).

Huh? Everyone who played any of the demos specifically noted that only small movements of the wrist were necessary. How many times do we have to recover this ground?

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I loved practically everything I saw at E3 regarding the Rev. I've grown more sour on it because Nintendo decided to needlessly restrict their controller because of this non-gamer focus which will have a ripple effect on the entire console.

This may be unfair, but all I can recall hearing from you was how dire it was that Nintendo had shown so little at E3.

Whether the restriction on the NRC is needless is the entire point of contention. It seems to me that a major gaming company employing focus groups to test this idea is perhaps better-equipped to discern how to capture non-gamers than we. Just a thought. Certainly something happened between the NES and N64 that lost a massive chunk of the market, and I doubt it was the graphics.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It was Final Fantasy VII and big-budget ad campaigns.  That's what happened.

[Ian Sane]

"This may be unfair, but all I can recall hearing from you was how dire it was that Nintendo had shown so little at E3."

I did feel they should have shown more but I also said I liked what they did show.