Author Topic: Smash bros!!!  (Read 45615 times)

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Offline Pale

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2005, 04:23:13 AM »
Would you please listen to what I write?  I love your fencing analogy... if you think that the Rev controller is going to be exactly like fencing you have another thing coming.  Static floating movements being translated to moving and attacking on screen is not precision.

And thank you for flaming my saying "I don't think it will be me"...  I really should have said "I think i'll be wrong" apparently... because that would help your cause?  What the hell are we arguing for?

Was melee a rehash of the original N6 game?  I sure as hell don't think so.... yet it used the same control scheme.

I also asked one simple question in my response.  Can you please explain to me how Smash would become a better game if you control everything by waving your arms?  If you can do that, you will change my mind.  But assuming that Nintendo's controller will help EVERY Nintendo game be better than what it was is just silly.  Do you think the new pokemon DS game will use the touch screen to walk around?  Doubtful.  I'm betting the d-pad is still the desired movement tool.  Most likely they will add a new layer to pokemon that implements the touch screen.  Maybe you can pet your monster just like in Nintendogs... I dunno.  That's what I'm hoping for when it comes to Smash.  The same great game with an awesome new layer that I can't even come up with.  That layer will utilize motion sensing.

So do me a favor... Stop quote raping.  It's a very boring way to respond and I (and I'm sure others) hate reading them.  Stop being so personal.  I don't think I get personal and if I come off that way, I'm not serious.  The only reason I'm continuing is cause I don't like people thinking that these kinds of tactics 'win' internet arguments.  
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Offline KirbySStar

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RE:Smash bros!!!
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2005, 04:36:44 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Isn't this the same HAL that made Kirby Air Ride?  Their last attempt at "simplifying controls" for "non-gamers" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence regarding SSB.
Tsch.  It's a hell of a lot better than Nintendo's last attempt at making a kart racer.

Offline Dasmos

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RE:Smash bros!!!
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2005, 05:02:41 AM »
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Originally posted by: KirbySStar
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Isn't this the same HAL that made Kirby Air Ride?  Their last attempt at "simplifying controls" for "non-gamers" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence regarding SSB.
Tsch.  It's a hell of a lot better than Nintendo's last attempt at making a kart racer.



I remember having this same argument not too long ago. I will not get abusive or anything though, my opinion is that Kirby Airride is not as good MK: DD.

Sure MK wasn't perfect, but neither was Kirby. It had a large potential, but had fatal flaws. The one button control should have never been, especially when it makes more than one command. Breaking fine, but shooting should have been moved to another button. It's not hard to control tow buttons at once is it? Whenever you try to shoot in the game it slows you down. Bah! Enough of my bitching......except one more thing, the fastest rides always win, they may have other disadvantages but in the game it never matters.  
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2005, 05:18:40 AM »
How about I play the neutral side and say that both of you suck and both games rocked?
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2005, 07:51:50 AM »
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And thank you for flaming my saying "I don't think it will be me"... I really should have said "I think i'll be wrong" apparently... because that would help your cause? What the hell are we arguing for?
No, I was amused that you woould feel the need to say "I don't think I'm wrong." Think about it a bit. I'll put the answer in my next post.

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Static floating movements being translated to moving and attacking on screen is not precision.
Which is what you will keep repeating until you actually try it. Seriously, you can't offer a single reason to believe this, you just keep saying it over and over again in the hopes that we'll suddenly believe you, a la Goebbels.

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Can you please explain to me how Smash would become a better game if you control everything by waving your arms?
Oh, I don't know that it will. I'm saying that you WILL control Smash by waving your arms. Whether it will be a better game is up to Nintendo.

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That's what I'm hoping for when it comes to Smash. The same great game with an awesome new layer that I can't even come up with.
When you can fill me in on how they could add some amazing new layer to the game without violating the oh-so-sacred Melee formula I'll be more inclined to take you seriously.

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It's a very boring way to respond and I (and I'm sure others) hate reading them.
Sorry, I prefer argument to rhetorical fireworks. If you can't actually handle point-by-point responses, stop responding by all means.
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Stop being so personal.
You don't know what "personal" means. Allow me to demonstrate:

Your problem with reading my posts doesn't seem to be boredom at all. You maintain a tone of hysterical defensiveness combined with dogmatic and uncritical reassertion and a complete inability to substantively engage any one else here. This, I guess, would be why you hate "quote rape": it requires the intellectual capacity to deal with a continuous flow of argument and the emotional capacity to deal with someone disagreeing with you. You have demonstrated neither. Instead of whining about the fact that people haven't just abandoned their own opinions and bowed before you, try developing the spine to respond on rational grounds. A victim complex doesn't help anyone.

That right there is what I would call flaming. I rarely do it anymore. Congratulations, you managed to provoke me.

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Stop being so personal. I don't think I get personal and if I come off that way, I'm not serious.
Funny thing, just last post I said something about what I would do if I were really quote raping, and specifically said "but that would be silly." You managed to take offense anyway, so I see no point in trying to spare your exceptionally tender feelings.
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Offline Pale

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2005, 07:59:49 AM »
hahahahaha

Man, you just made me feel like such an idiot.... why did i keep this up this long.  At least the rest of the forum listened to my opinion, thought of it what they will, and didn't make grossly wrong assumptions about what I know/think and how smart they are.  No.  I won't be posting in this thread again.

Actually thanks.  You brought on another one of those "why the hell do i spend time in forums" things.  Maybe I'll get some work done now.  Have a good life all star.
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Offline vudu

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2005, 09:36:03 AM »
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I will say this; Nintendo is extremely proud. It's hard for me to see them using the shell instead of their new controller and selling point of the Rev for the sequel to the titles that sold the most on their previous two consoles. Even if ultimately it controls worse then it would have by using a shell (and I would hope it wouldn't), Nintendo probably will go with the remote
How about this senerio...Nintendo has 4 games available at launch.  3 of them use the remote/nunchuk exclusively.  SSB uses the controller as a way of letting developers know that it's okay to continue to make games using the traditional controller.
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So do me a favor... Stop quote raping. It's a very boring way to respond and I (and I'm sure others) hate reading them.
I second that.  I haven't been able to read a single post by zakkiel because they hurt my eyes and my brain.

Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2005, 10:05:44 AM »
"Nintendo has 4 games available at launch. 3 of them use the remote/nunchuk exclusively. SSB uses the controller as a way of letting developers know that it's okay to continue to make games using the traditional controller."

Good idea though I don't know if Nintendo would go for it.  I don't know if Nintendo want to let developers know that it's okay to use the traditional controller.  They never really gave anyone incentive to use the d-pad on the N64.

There is one problem if they went with that idea.  They really would have to make sure that one of their remote games was by far the best game.  If SSB is the best game and it uses traditional controls then they just proved that the old way is better, more or less.  It would be total disaster for Nintendo if their innovative remote games collected dust while SSB killed them all in sales.  Not only would they have egg on their face but they would run into the problem where most Rev owners would be expecting some other "traditional" game to follow up SSB and Ninendo would likely be stuck with a bunch of remote games in the pipeline.

It would be like how Goldeneye was a huge hit but it was different than the other N64 games Nintendo was making and wasn't really expected to be such a big hit.  So suddenly Nintendo had a whole bunch of mature gamers buying their console and they had nothing for that audience in the works so they never really were able to follow up on it.  They can't release Super Smash Bros Online and then follow it up with Yoshi's Touch 'n' Go.

I'm not suggesting Nintendo shoehorn SSB into using the remote nor am I suggesting they dumb it down to not divert attention from their remote games.  I'm suggesting they release some seriously awesome sh!t that uses the remote.  In order for this to really take off they need remote games at launch that are better than the best traditional games.  Twilight Princess is coming out the same year.  Their remote games have to be better than THAT or at least as good.  A Cube game should not win "Best Nintendo Game of the Year" the same year that the Rev is released.  In 1996 SNES games weren't even in the running.  It was unanimously Super Mario 64.  

Offline vudu

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2005, 10:35:37 AM »
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There is one problem if they went with that idea. They really would have to make sure that one of their remote games was by far the best game. If SSB is the best game and it uses traditional controls then they just proved that the old way is better, more or less.
I disagree.  If Metroid Prime 3 and SSBRev are launch titles and SSBRev is the better game it doesn't mean that the traditional controller is better--just better for that particular genre of game.  Now, if MP3 and another FPS were released as launch titles and only one used the remote/nunchuk for control then you could compare the two games and try to determine which method of control was better.

The same would go if Namco released an enhanced port of Soul Caliber III as a Revolution launch title and it used the remote/nunchuk.  If SSBRev used the traditional controller attachment, you could obvious try to compare the two games to determine which control method was better suited for fighters.  However, even then, the two games are so different, it might be hard to draw comparisons between the two.  For instance, perhaps the remote/nunchuk combination is better for 3D fighters but the traditional controller is better for 2D ones.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline zakkiel

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2005, 10:50:25 AM »
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Actually thanks. You brought on another one of those "why the hell do i spend time in forums" things. Maybe I'll get some work done now.
Good. Though maybe anger management would be better than work. Anyway, so long as you're gone it will be much the best all around.

Ian, I basically agree. (Wow). And since I doubt that Nintendo would be satisfied to make SSB a niche title, they're pretty well boxed in to using the new controller with it. If Nintendo's launch game on traditional controls is better than the ones with the new remote, then all their claims to be revolutionizing game play go out the window. They're just offering one more alternative in a crowded market. Since some Nintendo official recently said in an interview that they plan for this to become the dominant form of gameplay, I don't think they'd settle for that.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2005, 10:55:42 AM »
"If Metroid Prime 3 and SSBRev are launch titles and SSBRev is the better game it doesn't mean that the traditional controller is better--just better for that particular genre of game."

That makes sense but I don't think that's how people would see it.  I think comparisons would be made no matter what.

I should specify that when I talk about a difference in quality being a problem I mean like comparing SSBM to Luigi's Mansion.  There was a huge difference in quality there and that's why despite Luigi's Mansion being the flagship title SSBM is clearly the more popular game.  I mean if SSB with normal controls is THE Rev game to play and remote games aren't then Nintendo's got a problem.

Nintendo is saying that gaming as we know it is flawed and that they have something better.  So they have to have a Super Mario 64 level game to prove that.  The killer app for remote has to have "best game ever made" being tossed around.

One thing that really sold me on the SNES and the N64 was that the first games being shown looked like they were better than almost every game from the previous console.  I felt like I had to get the next console or I would be missing out.  That's what the initial Rev titles have to do.

Offline Dasmos

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RE:Smash bros!!!
« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2005, 10:20:56 PM »
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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
How about I play the neutral side and say that both of you suck and both games rocked?


Oh I enjoyed both games, I just thought Mario Kart was greater. Both were worth the money, Kirby only cost me $30 though......
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Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2005, 06:52:48 AM »
okay.. ssb needs the nunchuck, we know that much. they need to keep it close to standard fare, but if they want to include some motion sensing capabilities (which people will undoubtedly expect), they should offer alternatives to flicking the wrist.

analog stick controls all movement. dpad can be used as a jump button. z1/z2 are block/throw. flick up can jump, flick down to duck-dodge (think about it; you could do that pretty quickly). offer a C-stick-esque smash option where if you hit A and flick to a direction you can do a smash attack. I'm not sure if you can charge those.

also, i just want to know how many people use the Cstick in melee and how find it to be kinda cheap? I've never used it, but it bothers me when I see my roomate jump into the fray and smash,smash,smash repeatedly. Cstick is lame.
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Offline Darkheart

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RE:Smash bros!!!
« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2005, 07:06:52 AM »
Me and my friends have always kind of made it a silent rule to not use the C stick, it does indeed feel cheap.

Offline zakkiel

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2005, 07:31:07 AM »
I never found it cheap. I think it's a disadvantage to people who depend on it.
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Offline TMW

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2005, 11:30:39 AM »
Yah...I mean, I taught it to my 7 and 12 year old nephews so they could fight better, but I tend not to use it.  I don't know about my friends, as we've never discussed it, but they are good enough that I don't think they need too.
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Now, is Edge Hogging "cheap" or "tactically sound"?  
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Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2005, 01:00:44 PM »
edge hopping... is that jumping off the edge to meteor smash an opponent and then jumping back? or is that jumping off, grabbing the ledge, dropping, double jumping (or up B) back on the field.. gaar, i need to look at some FAQs
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Offline Don'tHate742

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RE:Smash bros!!!
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2005, 01:05:46 PM »
Your right about the NRC definitely needing to be implemented somehow.

I like your idea that uses a flick of the wrist to dodge. And your right, you can do that very easily and quickly. What if you extend that further?

Here's a control scheme that i think could work marvelously (mostly taken form Stimutacs):
Analague stick: Movement
A: Normal attack
B: Special attack
z1: block
z2: throw
Holding A then flicking your wrist: Weak Smash Attack (Smash attacks can now be aimed in any direction)
Flicking your wrist + A: True Smash Attack
Flicking your wrist + A (then Hold): Charging Smash Attack (even more powerful then before but takes longer to reach maximum power. Also you can alter the direction mid-smash (only after being charged for a set amount of time))
flick of the wrist upwards / up and to the right / up and to the left: jump up / up and to the right / up and to the left
flick of the wrist downwards: Dodge (which is changed to allow you to "A" attack (no smash) afterwards)
While in air, holding Block then flicking your wrist: Air Dodge
flick of the wrist left while facing right: slide/jump backwards (if a jump, you still have 2 jumps as you would normally have)
flick of the wrist right while facing right: lunge forward
Lunging forward and at anytime before landing pressing A: Jump Attack (there is a recovery time invovled)
Sprinting and Lunging forward: Dive roll
Holding Block then flicking your wrist: roll
Holding Throw and flicking your wrist: throw item
Flicking your wrist + Throw: Smash throw item (Can be charged)
Throw w/o an item: grab
While grabbing, flicking your wrist: Will throw the opponent in any direction
While grabbing in air, flicking your wrist: Will throw the opponent in any direction and will result with your charachter moving slightly in the opposite direction.
While grabbing in air, flicking the ANALOGUE STICK downwards: Dive while subdueing charachter. If the charachter isn't that weak, he/she/it can break free.
D-pad: This could be used creatively somehow.

I know your probably thinking "Why have a jump back/ lunge forward move when you already can roll?" Well, because you can not only dodge, but jump while jumping back (something you can't do while rolling). Their is no recovery time when you finally land (unlike rolling, where you have a brief moment where you can't do anything). Also, jumping back is very fast. So you can jump back and forth really fast if you time it right. However, rolling still has the ability to roll around a person. Jumping forwards or backwards doesn't allow you to jump through someone. You can, however, shove them back if the charachter is stronger or the opponent has a high percentage.

For example, an opponent is charging a smash. Before they release it you lunge into them, disrupting their charge and forcing them back. While they slide back, you can press A mid-lunge and attack them. The opponent can counter this move simply by releasing the charging smash before you hit them. However, if you were to jump Attack the opponent instead of just lunge, then the player who had the more powerful attack would deal more damage and would move less.

I see a one on one fray between masters going like this:
Ganondorf: 110%
Link: 75%
Ganons on the right, Links on the left.

Ganondorf does a super-punch. Link jumps back barely missing the punch, then jumps forwards and attacks. Ganon rolls back, charges, grabs Link, and tosses him forward. Ganon follows up with a sliding kick. Link, as soon as he touches ground from the throw, hand-springs backwards (requires perfect timing), jumps upwards and stabs downwards. Ganon is sent flying off to the left. He returns to the platform barely by hanging off the edge. He flips upwards off the edge. Link retaliates by jumping and attacking mid-air. Before he can attack though, Ganon grabs him mid-air and dives towards the ground. They crash into the ground, and Ganon flips off of Link. Link rolls to the right, and it becomes a stand-still. Link charges forward, stops short, throws his boomerang, and jump attacks forward. Link had hoped Ganon would dodge the boomerang then get hit by his jump attack, instead Ganon simply blocks and slides across the playing field as a result of the force (the block "bubbles" are gone, and are now replaced with translucent bubbles that light up at the point of contact). Link sprints towards Ganon. Ganon prepares a charge smash attack (which direction can be changed mid-smash after a set amound of time). Link sprints towards the charging Ganon, only to dive roll as Ganon releases his charging smash attack. Link, now behind Ganon, delivers a spin-attack.....

So on and so forth
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Offline TMW

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2005, 04:37:56 PM »
I meant standing on the edge when someone is trying to get back on the stage, and you not letting them, through various means.

Jesus saves! Everyone else, roll for damage.<BR><BR>Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's not an invisible monster about to eat your face off.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2005, 04:44:33 PM »
The term I always use is "Edge Guarding," but yeah, it can be really cheap at times...I tend not to do it even if my opponents do...
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Offline KnowsNothing

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2005, 04:56:38 PM »
Oh I always do that.
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Offline IceCold

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RE:Smash bros!!!
« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2005, 06:40:41 PM »
C-Stick mashing really isn't cheap... it's easy to dodge and if they keep doing it then it's really easy to find a way to get them.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2005, 08:40:22 PM »
I never edge guard.  My friend and I have a rule that you don't edge guard until you get to 90% damage, and even then I'm reluctant to do it.
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Offline wandering

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2005, 06:59:50 AM »
I'll edge guard occasionally. It's their fault for falling off the side.....I tell myself as I laugh maniacally and look down at my weakling opponent and his pathetic struggles to save his own life.

Oh, as for how the NRC controller might be used for Smash....
Pale has actually convinced me that motion wouldn't work well as a replacement for the analogue stick when it comes to normal attacks. So, that opens up some other possibilites. I like Don'tHate's/Simutac's ideas......but I have anohter: the gyros could be used for super-duper smash attacks. Imagine that each charachter has an ultra-powerful attack that can only be used once every 30 seconds or so, and requires a simple hand gesture to execute. For DOnkey Kong, you might swing the remote around in a circle to do a super punch. For Mario, you might flick your wrist right, hold to charge, then flick left for an ultra-powerful fire ball blast. For jiggly puff, you might have to swing the controller around in a complex pattern in order to use her special Jiggly Dance! move that generally dishes out about 1 percentage point worth of damage.  
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: Smash bros!!!
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2005, 10:13:52 AM »
My view is that nothing that wins is cheap, provided its built into the game. SSBM adjusted the invulnerability time on the edge just so it wouldn't be as devastating. It means you just have to work harder not to fall off.

I really dislike the idea of moves with a 30-second cooldown. I see no place in SSB for that kind of nonsense. If you have a more powerful move, it should have some tactical drawback, not a restriction on how often you can use it.
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