Topic: Nintendo and it's philosophies

[Ian Sane]

A gimmick is when something is changed from the norm yet provides no advantage or improvement and is only different to get an initial  "wow" reaction from people.  The goal is to try to get people interested in something that is not worthy of any interest.  So touchscreen steering in Ridge Racer DS is a great example.  It's neato but it's useless.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
A gimmick is when something is changed from the norm yet provides no advantage or improvement and is only different to get an initial  "wow" reaction from people.  The goal is to try to get people interested in something that is not worthy of any interest.  So touchscreen steering in Ridge Racer DS is a great example.  It's neato but it's useless.

You've got a much more negative connotation of gimmick than the dictionary definition would suggest.  

[Artimus]

Denotation is the dictionary meaning. Connotation is the publicly accepted emotion/feeling related to the word. Gimmick in our society has a positive denotation, but a negative connotation.

[Don'tHate742]

I just wanted to bump this thread so people would give it a second read.

Turns out...I was right about everything I argued about. People stating that Simplicity (in design) and Functionality could be done, and done by Nintendo were absolutely wrong, and the "shell" proves it.

Basically Nintendo made two controllers: One for Simplicity (that may or may not provide complex games) and one for functionality (for games that need those extra buttons, that extra complexity). If they could have both, then they would of done it correct? No need to waste time on a "shell."

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Mario said: Not with that attitude they can't, which is lucky because you don't work at Nintendo.

Bill said: Ahaha, very true...I'm very glad you don't work at Nintendo...

If I had worked at Nintendo, my design would be uncanny to the NRC, so therefore you would be VERY glad that I worked at Nintendo correct?

Hating a forum goers idea, then turning around and praising Nintendo when they produce that almost exact idea is.......what do you call that.....hmmm..........Hypocritical? Face it, your a FAN-BOY!

[PaLaDiN]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you basically argued that Nintendo should give us the shell as the standard controller in your first post and spent a while bashing simplicity, which by your own admission is the focus of the actual controller. Hardly uncanny.

Plus:

"People stating that Simplicity (in design) and Functionality could be done, and done by Nintendo were absolutely wrong, and the "shell" proves it.

Basically Nintendo made two controllers: One for Simplicity (that may or may not provide complex games) and one for functionality (for games that need those extra buttons, that extra complexity)."

You just contradicted yourself. People were wrong to assume that Nintendo could offer both functionality and simplicity, because Nintendo offered both functionality and simplicity?

I have no previous post or argument in this thread to back up... it just seems you're twisting words around to be able to say "I told you so", is all.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Hey guys, I like the controls.  Bring me these new-fangled ways of playing games.

[IceCold]

Dammit, DontHate, will you stop blowing your own trumpet please? It's getting quite annoying

And who turned their back on your idea? I seem to remember that when everyone was drawing up their own mockup, we discussed it and all, but to say that everyone rejected your idea like that isn't true.

Nintendo probably didn't want to include the shell. If they had their way they would have just left it at the remote. But to appease third parties who didn't want to have to spend time thinking of how to implement their game into the controller (and fans who wanted a traditional setup) they created the shell.

And I really believe that if the remote was tweaked a bit, it would look simple and appealing, and have basically all of the functions needed for traditional games. Right now even it is functional, but not for some specific games, but it definitely could be.

[zakkiel]

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Basically, it's either simplicity or functionality....you can't have both Nintendo. I hope they realize this and come up with a solution, because either option doesn't achieve the main goal: Expanding the numbers of videogame users.

So basically you're saying there is no solution but you hope Nintendo comes up with one? Honestly, I can't tell what you mean by simplicity or functionality in your post. You seem to keep changing definitions as you go through. Me, I have a very straightforward standard for control: SSBM. You could remove the Dpad, a shoulder button, an analog stick, and either the x or y button and still have a fully functional game of insanely deep proportions. You can play it just fine with an analog stick, five play buttons and a start button. If you count the bottom of the Dpad you have that much functionality in the nunchuck before you even get into the rest of its abilities.

Also, I hear tell there is a near-magical object capable of providing all the functionality that you need to manage cities and armies, yet it is so smooth, so natural, so simple that a four-year-old can use it with ease. They call this legendary artifact... the mouse. Oh wait. That's a sparkling innovation.

[SgtShiversBen]

NO!! You can't remove the d-pad from Melee!  HOw would you be able to taunt (that option always makes me press up on the d-pad in any other game when I do something cool only to be let down).  Other than that though, the game does fit perfectly.

[trip1eX]

Nintendo is making the classic controller shell not because they don't think their controller will have enough functionality or anything, but to give consumers a choice and developers a choice.  

I think is the best of both worlds and a bridge to getting the horse&buggy crowd to try the new controller.    

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Ian likes choice.

~~~~~

What divides TV gaming and PC gaming for me is 'convenience.'  Taking advantage of a mouse involves, in an everyday sense, seat/"desktop space"/monitor setup.  It's long established, and will continue to stay.  However, importing the mouse/keyb combo into my home theater/couch setup is just... clunky.  Being able to wave the magick Rev Wand from just about anywhere sounds nice, almost as well as holding a traditional controller at any position/angle while I can lie around and vegetate as I play.  Mouse/keyb while lying down in my couch.... not really happening.

[Don'tHate742]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
Dammit, DontHate, will you stop blowing your own trumpet please? It's getting quite annoying

And who turned their back on your idea? I seem to remember that when everyone was drawing up their own mockup, we discussed it and all, but to say that everyone rejected your idea like that isn't true.

Nintendo probably didn't want to include the shell. If they had their way they would have just left it at the remote. But to appease third parties who didn't want to have to spend time thinking of how to implement their game into the controller (and fans who wanted a traditional setup) they created the shell.

And I really believe that if the remote was tweaked a bit, it would look simple and appealing, and have basically all of the functions needed for traditional games. Right now even it is functional, but not for some specific games, but it definitely could be.

I just want recognition where recognition is due. It's like Nintendo not getting a damn emmy for videogame acheivement.

Remember how Racid Planet came up with the idea for FPS's where you could control the gun as if it were real? Ya, I came up with that idea a while ago yet people praised him. Then people started "coming up" with their own ideas saying that you could shoot everywhere, even behind you! Ya, I came up with that idea too, but for some reason no one says a damn thing and doesn't give me any recognition. Therefore, I have to, and if you call that blowing my own trumpet, then f**k, so what?!

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you basically argued that Nintendo should give us the shell as the standard controller in your first post and spent a while bashing simplicity, which by your own admission is the focus of the actual controller. Hardly uncanny.

Hahahaha, you obviously mis-understood me. And I will correct you cause you are wrong  . I was stating how shell-like functionality was needed. I never said we needed a classic controller or a "shell." Instead, I was saying that Nintendo needs the shells functionality (its ability to play all games). You'd agree correct? If it didn't then how would we play N64/Snes games?

The only diffence between my idea and Nintendo's is the number of buttons. They are both two-piece controllers (with the option to use only one piece). They both interact on a 3-D plane for 3-D movement. They both achieve the same advancements in all the same genres (FPS, Link Sword-fighting). They only difference was that they went with simplicity in their controller design and added an attachable shell for maximum functionality; I went with maximum functionality and no shell. How is that not uncanny?

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So basically you're saying there is no solution but you hope Nintendo comes up with one?

There IS no solution for making one controller cosmetically simple (the definition that I've been using the whole time) and functional (to have the ability to play ALL games). So I said I hope Nintendo comes up with a solution because they obviously want both, but they can't have both.

Their solution ended up being the shell (and the nunchuck attachment, but that is actually cosmetically simple as well). That was their solution to have both, making maximum functionality essentially an attachment.

[zakkiel]

The shell is less functional than the wand, not more. You can't really use it as a point-control device, which is the wand's main advantage. At best, you'll see some tilt used with the shell along one axis of ration. Compare that with 3 axes of rotation and 3 dimensions for translation.

You can argue that for some games the shell will be more convenient. No way in hell I buy that it has more functionality. Any game you could devise for a traditional controller can be played with the nunchuck - ackwardly, sure, but it could be played. The reverse is far, far from true.

The shell is, like trip1ex said, a bridge to the horse-and-buggy crowd who long for games with lots of buttons because that's what they're used to. Future generations will wonder how we lived with such an artificial, restrictive and needlessly complicated paradigm.

[Don'tHate742]

It has more functionality by being able to play ALL games. Period.

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: Don'tHate742
It has more functionality by being able to play ALL games. Period.

It cannot play a FPS that uses the Remote Controller. It cannot play almost nay Remote Controller game.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Shoot someone behind you buy aiming the shell+remote combo over your shoulder.  Holding it with 2 traditional hands, of course.

LOOKS LIKE FUN

[BigJim]

You can't point, move, or tilt with 2 hands? You can always, ya know, release your grip on one side if you really had to. It's no more or less awkward than the nunchuck setup.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. You pick the right setup for the right game. Removing the *option* would be the ridiculous choice.

[BigJim]

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Originally posted by: Professional 666
Shoot someone behind you buy aiming the shell+remote combo over your shoulder.  Holding it with 2 traditional hands, of course.

LOOKS LIKE FUN

If your arthritis is that bad, then maybe they just won't make a game that requires that partcular action with the shell.

OPTIONS, folks.

[PaLaDiN]

"It's no more or less awkward than the nunchuck setup."

Come on. Do you really believe that?

[Hostile Creation]

Don'tHate, we're giving you credit.  Chill out.  When we tell you to cool it, we're not saying "You did not think of anything, don'thate", we're saying "You're being arrogant and annoying now, don'thate".  See?

And yes, the remote provides functionality that did not previously exist on controllers, and that a shell cannot duplicate.
Using the controller as the pointer device is ridiculous.  You could do it, but it's much, much more awkward than the remote.  Really, I can tell just by looking at it.

[IceCold]

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I just want recognition where recognition is due. It's like Nintendo not getting a damn emmy for videogame acheivement.

We KNOW that you thought of that controller. I remember it clearly; it was even on the IGN mockup feature. And any other serious contributer to the forums knows that you thought of that controller as well. But in the last few days, I've read more than a few posts of yours in which you keep repeating that it was YOU who came up with an idea similar to the controller. So, good job, I really mean it - it was a very creative design, and it was close to the NRC, but you don't have to keep shoving it down our throats, OK?

The truth is, if developers actually try, they can make any game they want fit the controller. It's just those companies that want quick ports without much work that the shell is useful to. If Nintendo modified the controller just a little bit, it could be simple and extremely functional.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Ian likes choices/options.  I said that earlier.  I like options too.

But the previous "aroma" i was picking up earlier was that a traditional shell was suitable for all games.  I'm holding my GC controller with only my right hand, and it seems to make a "meh" light gun, a "meh" chef's knife (like Rev TGS demo), a "meh" lightsaber, and a "meh" general laser-pointer-like device.

What I do like about a shell+remote combo is it gives a broader surface for manipulating a Super Monkey Ball platform, rather than the slim rod/remote.  It'd definitely work with just the remote, but i'd rather have my hands around something more like a plane.  DOH.  I just realized i could tape the remote to something like a DVD case and it'd get the job done nicer.  A shell+remote combo as a floating steering wheel comes to mind too.  John-Woo-movie gunplay?  No thanks.

I'm excited about the future, but I should be playing Buttalion Wars now.

[zakkiel]

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Originally posted by: Don'tHate742
It has more functionality by being able to play ALL games. Period.

A good half of the games implied in the promo simply could not be played with a traditional controller. Trying to play them with the shell really would cause the massive wrist fatigue everyone is worried about. For more traditional point-control applications, yes you could use the analog stick to move the cursor, but I defy anyone to have any fun doing it in an RTS or similar application. You can't use the point control with the shell - there's no way you could make the kind of continuous, intuitive adjustments necessary while gripping something with two hands. Doing anything besides tilting it will feel extremely clunky and ackward.

[BigJim]

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
"It's no more or less awkward than the nunchuck setup."

Come on. Do you really believe that?

In the context of the comment, yes. *Neither* one is difficult.

[Don'tHate742]

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Originally posted by: IceCold

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I just want recognition where recognition is due. It's like Nintendo not getting a damn emmy for videogame acheivement.

We KNOW that you thought of that controller. I remember it clearly; it was even on the IGN mockup feature. And any other serious contributer to the forums knows that you thought of that controller as well. But in the last few days, I've read more than a few posts of yours in which you keep repeating that it was YOU who came up with an idea similar to the controller. So, good job, I really mean it - it was a very creative design, and it was close to the NRC, but you don't have to keep shoving it down our throats, OK?

The truth is, if developers actually try, they can make any game they want fit the controller. It's just those companies that want quick ports without much work that the shell is useful to. If Nintendo modified the controller just a little bit, it could be simple and extremely functional.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Honestly...that's all I wanted.

It was featured on the IGN mockup feature? I can't seem to find it....you have a link?

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A good half of the games implied in the promo simply could not be played with a traditional controller. Trying to play them with the shell really would cause the massive wrist fatigue everyone is worried about.

What the hell are you talking about? Did I ever say you should play Gyration or whatever games with a one-piece "classic" controller? No, definitely not. In fact, I remember saying that it would be basically useless to do so.

What I did say was that the shell is needed to play games the NRC can't. However like Ice Cold said, with some creative industrial design, Nintendo could make the REV play all games and it's own special brand of games to come. Honestly, if they used IceCold's idea, then all problems would be fixed.