Author Topic: Size Does Not Equal Power (Read 15024 times)

Strell · « **Reply #25 on:** July 25, 2005, 05:39:57 PM »

Right and wrong.

Size doesn't equal power ...

BUT...

Size means more room for components, which means more cooling.

It's always possible that the Rev will have a very clean interior and streamlined board(s), but even given that, the fact that the 360/PS3 are larger might mean that the machines simply require more cooling for more power.

If that's the case, then by bending the rules, yes, size can equal power.

vudu · « **Reply #26 on:** July 26, 2005, 08:59:05 AM »

Quote
It's always possible that the Rev will have a very clean interior and streamlined board(s), but even given that, the fact that the 360/PS3 are larger might mean that the machines simply require more cooling for more power.

But aren't the PS3 and Xbox 360 much larger because they're built with numerous non-gaming features in mind? Since Nintendo is leaving all non-necessary features out, it makes sense for it to be smaller.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #27 on:** July 26, 2005, 10:50:48 AM »

They're mostly larger because they've made them larger. Especially the nongames stuff doesn't increase size, look at a MacMini, that thing can do anything but games and it's more or less the same size as the Rev.

hudsonhawk · « **Reply #28 on:** July 26, 2005, 12:56:01 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
They're mostly larger because they've made them larger. Especially the nongames stuff doesn't increase size, look at a MacMini, that thing can do anything but games and it's more or less the same size as the Rev.

Um, ok look - size != power, but there's a pretty direct correlation between them. Why else are there no handhelds as powerful as laptops? Why are ATX PCs always less powerful than full sized PCs? Two words: heat dispersion.

Now, you clearly want to cling to optimism about the Rev being competitive graphically with the PS3 and the 360, and that's cool - but you're barking up the wrong tree. The best hope you have for this isn't in terms of overall processing power - on paper, the Rev will get smoked, no matter what - but rather, in terms of actual harnessable power.

A lot of developers seem to be indicating that these simple multi-core processors in the PS3 and the 360 are difficult to work with and that certain obstacles will prevent them from ever being harnessed to their fully-advertised potential.

This could mean that Rev titles will look every bit as good, simply because 1) it's an architecture that conventional wisdom actually applies to and 2) they won't have to waste dev time on solving difficult low-level programming tasks, such as branch prediction.

Look, I'm as hopelessly optimistic as I can be about this, but you have to be more pragmatic in your optimism.

Strell · « **Reply #29 on:** July 26, 2005, 03:13:54 PM »

Yea, hudson is right on. He pretty much said everything I'd hope I'd say if I wasn't so lazy.

ShyGuy · « **Reply #30 on:** July 26, 2005, 05:28:51 PM »

ATX PCs always less powerful than full sized PCs? I'm not sure what you're referring to there.

Anyway, It's possible to put together a cube PC that is as powerful as a full size tower. I've done it myself. Checkout
Shuttle XPC Cubes

And if you made the power supply external, removed the hard drive, and made the DVD drive a slimline, you could make it half the size with little effort. I'm sure Nintendo can do even better.

Galford · « **Reply #31 on:** July 26, 2005, 06:58:17 PM »

The only reason the XBox360 gets away with it's design is it's liquid cooled.
Notice how the PS3 isn't and look at the size of it.

Unless Nintendo knows someone who who can genuinely break Moore's Law
and somehow magicly deal with the heat problems that come from doing that
the Revo will not be more powerful then the PS3 or XBox360.

Of course Nintendo might launch last and solve both of those probs a one swipe.

ThePerm · « **Reply #32 on:** July 26, 2005, 07:10:35 PM »

actually to be one generation ahead of gamecube you would have to be as big as revolution to be acheiving moores law

KDR_11k · « **Reply #33 on:** July 26, 2005, 07:17:12 PM »

Um, ok look - size != power, but there's a pretty direct correlation between them. Why else are there no handhelds as powerful as laptops? Why are ATX PCs always less powerful than full sized PCs? Two words: heat dispersion.

1. Handhelds run off batteries. Desktop hardware would drain that in less than two hours.
2. You mean Mini-ATX, ATX is what all desktop computers use.

Galford: The X360 uses a heatpipe, liquid cooling usually makes people think "watercooling". The reason why watercooling is so effective is because it uses huge heatsinks, transporting the heat does not reduce the required surface for heat dissipation, it just allows you to place those surfaces separae from the heat sources.

The GC is smaller than the XB or PS2. Increasing the box size doesn't increase heatflow, a smaller box allows you to get the hot air out of the case faster. After all, the purpose of the cooling system is to get the heat out of the case.

Do you even know what Moore's Law says? It has ZERO to do with power consumption (well, okay, each gate eats a bit of power but Moore's Law does not account for more efficient gates so going strictly transistor count * transistor power consumption is stupid because the power consumption is not constant).

cubist · « **Reply #34 on:** July 26, 2005, 07:41:15 PM »

Where the hell am I? I've landed in the late Mr. Scott's Engineering Room. I'm used to hearing a lot of whining and complaining in here, but here's a topic worth reading. This topic rocks!

I agree that size does not equal power. The point about the new design of the PS2 (and maybe even the PSP) illustrate this. However, there's only one area where size does indeed matter in our society...hehehe...uhmmm basketball.

Galford · « **Reply #35 on:** July 26, 2005, 08:55:01 PM »

Yes, I know that Moore's Law doesn't pertain directly to power/heat consumption. I realize in retrospect that Moore's Law wasn't the best example for what I was trying to say.

Basicly what I'm trying to say is, with current cooling technology and current fabing technology, there is no way in hell the Revo can have the same horsepower as XBox360/PS3 with it's current form factor.

Granted part of the size/heat issues that PS3/Xenon will have is due to they both are designed to house an internal haddrive.

The only way Nintendo could create a more powerful system with what's been shown is wait an enitre year and fab on a more advanced process then Sony/MS are using.

Nintendo did this with the GC and look what happened...

KDR_11k · « **Reply #36 on:** July 27, 2005, 12:27:20 AM »

cubist: Did you mention Scotty just because he's dead?

Galford: I believe with a very efficient design you could archieve the same or better cooling than the PS3 and X360 have. My GPU is definitely cooled in a way that would fit into a Rev and the GeForce 6800 wasn't exactly low-end hardware (I think it eats more power than the Athlon 64 that sits on the same mobo). Small size can hurt the cooling but I don't think the Rev is small enough for that to happen yet. The Rev won't be more powerful, at least not than the PS3 but it'll probably beat the X360 and deliver a real-world performance very close to the PS3 by cutting some of those 90% cost increase -> 10% performance increase components. Even if the Rev is the weakest system, I don't think it'll be by much and the end user won't notice.

Galford · « **Reply #37 on:** July 27, 2005, 05:55:25 PM »

What flavor of 6800 do you have KDR?
Is it one with a dual slotted cooler or a single slotter cooler?

Well I guess the future will tell if I have to foot ot not when it comes to Rev's
specs.

Nephilim · « **Reply #38 on:** July 28, 2005, 05:52:45 AM »

current age flash cards are at the end and death
Im sure the harf a gig would only cost them 5dollars
only real reason the next gen arnt released is because there still making money off em (look at psp memory cards)

and yes size doesnt equal power, Much like fanboys claiming ps3 is better because it has more fans...just cause it looks bigger on paper, doesnt mean it is

stevey · « **Reply #39 on:** July 28, 2005, 08:34:15 AM »

size=power if value of **ck =small just look at cube vs xbox or dreamcast vs ps2 there ¾ to ½ the size but the same power.

ThePerm · « **Reply #40 on:** August 01, 2005, 10:06:07 PM »

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1638952,00.asp

and good point the cube kicks ps2's ass for damn sure..and its much smaller and lighter.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #41 on:** August 06, 2005, 06:59:02 AM »

Galford: (sorry for the late reply, was on vacation) A bog standard 6800 one, i.e. one slot.

zakkiel · « **Reply #42 on:** August 06, 2005, 04:41:04 PM »

On that noise thing: by FAR the noisiest element of any console system that I've noticed is the disc drive. You can get a quieter system without any implications for system power just by better engineering in that component.

"The GC is smaller than the XB or PS2. Increasing the box size doesn't increase heatflow, a smaller box allows you to get the hot air out of the case faster. After all, the purpose of the cooling system is to get the heat out of the case." The purpose of cooling is to get heat away from the electronics. You can do this more easily with more airflow, for which you need a bigger case.

Personally, I think the cooler and less power-demanding thing is a buzzword campaign, or corporate crap in other words. Cooler than what? Less power-intensive than what? And who the hell will notice or care anyway, provided the system doesn't fry like an egg?

In short, I wouldn't read too much into those adjectives.

I don't understand why Nintendo has a fetish for miniaturizing and portability in its home consoles. Perhaps it sells in Japan, what with the smaller average living space, but I doubt it. Stats are what sell. Nintendo may be right, and we just won't be able to visually tell the difference between the next-gen systems, but those numbers still count in the mind of the consumer. Of course, price does as well.

Truthliesn1seyes · « **Reply #43 on:** August 06, 2005, 05:58:17 PM »

Well there is nothing wrong with miniaturizing home consoles, its being done with every type of electronic equipement. Stereos, speakers, computers, all of them have become smaller over the years. Its just so much more convenient to have it smaller. It can fit in many different home ent. setups, it leaves you more room for other things and it just look nice lol.

Galford · « **Reply #44 on:** August 06, 2005, 07:15:28 PM »

KDR: Ok, just wondering if you had the dustbuster model(the two slotter) or the sexy single slot verison

KDR_11k · « **Reply #45 on:** August 06, 2005, 09:29:36 PM »

The purpose of cooling is to get heat away from the electronics.

And in order to keep the temperature inside the case stable the heat still has to leave the case at the same rate (or preferrably a higher one) as the electronics produce it at. The only factor here is size of the cooling vents and heatsinks (if we ignore heat emission through the case material which is neglectable). Bigger case will only mean more room through which the air has to go to reach the exit vent unless you mean increasing vent size along with case size. Look at the GC, vent->heatsink->heatsink->fan->vent. No space in between because that's not necessary.

Galford: The "dustbuster" is the FX 5700, the 6800 is faster and emits less heat.

Kazeneko · « **Reply #46 on:** August 07, 2005, 07:10:31 PM »

Thought I'd give my two cents on the subject...

Click here for a quick size comparison of Xbox360 and Revolution

The larger box represents Xbox 360 (yeah, it's simple, but it's the exact measurements MS has released), the blue box inside is the size of a standard computer hard drive, and the yellow box is the average size for a power supply, though the size/shape will most deffinately be different.). As you can see, after those two are added, there's really not much more space compared to the other box, which happens to be the size of 3 DVD cases (and Revolution is actually larger than that). Also need to take into consideration, that the 360 has the concave sides, which take at least 1/2" from the size of the console. Plus, the Hard Drive and PSU require additional cooling, and space around the HD for it to be removeable (some sort of EMF shielding, like the PS2 has). Just goes to show, that the Revolution really isn't too small to fit everything that needs to be in it for it to compete graphically with it's competitors.

Lastly, I wonder if Revolution may in fact be the first game console with a metal case, or at least part of it. The high-gloss of the mock-up could very well be there to mimmick painted metal. Would make sense to help cool the system, as the case could be used as a giant heatsink.

zakkiel · « **Reply #47 on:** August 07, 2005, 07:17:18 PM »

Pics of the Rev that I've seen don't show vents on the top (and probably wouldn't, to avoid dust). With vents located in the back, what's been miniaturized is not the total distance the air has to travel, but the area of a cross-section of the space it travels through. This obviously slows down the air by providing more resistance. AND it reduces the total mass of air moving. Less air moving slower=much less cooling. (Incidentally, it's not how long air takes to leave the case that counts - it's how much of it is leaving at any given time. Longer travel paths are relevant only because they SLIGHTLY increase the resistance against air flow).

Altogether, not a good situation for cooling. But who knows? Perhaps Nintendo discovered the room-temp superconductor and heat is no longer an issue. Come to think of it, that would solve the power use problem as well. Hmm...

KDR_11k · « **Reply #48 on:** August 07, 2005, 08:39:41 PM »

As I said already, the GeForce 6800s have a very flat cooling solution that wouldn't even take up half of the back of the Rev. If it can cool a graphics card that power-consuming it should work with a console that doesn't use high-consumption parts. Since the Rev is larger than the GF6800Ultra it can probably get a better heat transportation and could cool the CPU as well. The PS2 70k manages to apply an even flatter cooling solution with very little noise.

Galford · « **Reply #49 on:** August 07, 2005, 09:30:39 PM »

Yes, I know the Geforce FX was called the "dustbuster".

I also remember reading about some of the early model 6800s that took up two slots for cooling purposes.
I believe it was over at Tech-Report I read about them.

News:

Author Topic: Size Does Not Equal Power (Read 15024 times)