Author Topic: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry  (Read 13781 times)

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« on: July 13, 2005, 10:38:44 AM »
"State of the Handheld Industry 5" focuses on the new competition between the DS and PSP.

"State of the Handheld Industry" is an annual roundtable interview involving both handheld developers and journalists who cover the systems and games.  The fifth entry in the series is now available at Nintendo Insider and is broken up into four sections:    


Part One - Developer Roundtable
 Includes comments from representatives of such noted handheld developers as Vicarious Visions, Torus Games, Pocketeers, Tantalus, WayForward, and others.    


Part Two - NOA Interview
 This is Nintendo Insider's in-depth interview with Nintendo of America's Perrin Kaplan on the DS and Game Boy Micro.    


Part Three - Journalist Roundtable
 This discussion includes PGC's own Jonathan Metts, as well as veterans like Steve Kent, Dan Hsu, and Craig Harris.    


Part Four - Editorial
 This section is Nintendo Insider's own take on the current state of the handheld industry.

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Offline KnowsNothing

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2005, 04:48:06 PM »
Hmmm, some of those guys were complete idiots, while others were surprisingly down-to-earth.  Overall, I'd say it was a pretty boring read

Edit: Woah, I didn't realize Jonny was in this! I never really read the names, I just read the stuff.  Upon going back, it turns out that his answers were most of the ones I liked the best =o
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Offline mantidor

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2005, 06:20:00 PM »
LOL, maybe is the inclusion of Harris (sorry I dislike anything that cames from games section at IGN >_<!)
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Offline Karl Castaneda #2

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2005, 06:35:41 PM »
A big WOOT WOOT for the man himself, Jonny Metts. I was a bit surprised by a couple things Steven Kent said (he probably knows better than me, though). Also, I was so impressed by David Thomas that I'm interested in seeing more of his work. Overall, I thought it was a great piece.

Edit: And they really should get Jerry Holkins to do his thing. Though not technically a game journalist, he's still one of the more knowledgable and insightful people out there.
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Offline Aussie Ben PGC

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2005, 07:32:12 PM »
David Thomas is a brilliant writer and I now want to read more of his stuff.
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Offline Urkel

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RE:Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2005, 09:05:21 PM »
David Thomas is my new hero.

I laughed my ass off when I read this:

Quote

David Thomas, Denver Post: I’m not a business reporter, but I think I have what it takes to be a business consultant. I am more than happy to form opinions about things I lack most of the critical facts about. With that in mind, I can confidently say that the movie playback in the PSP is among the stupidest ideas I have ever heard of and is proof that business conglomerates give birth to awkward genetic mutants.

The DS has these little movie carts. They are a joke, a novelty. You buy them for your kids because you think your kids want to watch Pokemon on their Game Boy. And after about 10 minutes your kids look at you and say, “Why would we want to watch Pokemon on our Game Boy? We have a 150 inch plasma television in the basement.”

This doesn’t matter to Nintendo because they are not a movie company and the DS is not really a movie machine. It’s like watching someone cook dinner on the radiator on the car. It’s funny. You might even try a bite of meat. But unless you are a crazy hobo, it will not change you notion of a hot meal.

The PSP really, really wants to think of itself as a multimedia machine. Sony really, really wants you to watch movies on your PSP. And why? I am 100% convinced it is because Sony has a profitable division called Sony Pictures. Sony Computer Entertainment, the division most of us call the PlayStation people, is another big, profitable part of Sony.

Here’s what happened (as it appears in my imagination:

Location: A board meeting on Sony’s Floating Corporate Dirigible, high above the Andes.

Sony Pictures Executive: You know, our Spider-Man movie made a lot of money.

Sony Computer Entertainment Executive: Yes it did. I liked that part where Spidey grabbed that piece of pizza from that guy!

Pictures: Your Spider-Man game didn’t do so bad either. Kids like Spider-Man. Let’s put Spider-Man on the PSP!

Computer Entertainment: You know, you’re right. Let’s do it!

I know you think that businesses decisions are not made like this. And you are right. They are usually made using fewer big words and more grunts.

The point is this: Sony Computer Entertainment wants you to buy PlayStation hardware and games. The big Sony Company wants you to buy anything with the Sony brand on it. So, the idea of getting people to buy movies for a game system must have come from a movie guy. It did not come from a game guy. The game guy surely figured that the whole movie thing would cost him dearly. But in this case, the PlayStation guy probably wants to be THE Big Sony guy, so he goes along with the crazy scheme to add movies on his game machine.

They might as well have added a GPS in the box. At least you could use that for games.

The real problem with this is that no one will ever be able to prove any of it. Movie companies will sell 10,000 extra copies of some stupid horror movie on the PSP and say, “See, we sold an extra 10,000 copies.” Never mind that we’ll never have any idea as to whether or not those 10,000 copies came out of the regular DVD channel or not. The bigger problem is that while people are making a little bit of money, it will mask the fact that they could have made more money by selling a cheaper PSP to more gamers. The cost of the PSP discourages gamers from buying it. And to the extent that the cost of the PSP is higher because of movie support, it has hurt gaming.

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Offline Aussie Ben PGC

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2005, 09:24:06 PM »
This was a favourite for me:

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Asking me to write about mobile games is like asking a food writer to write about a package of those orange peanut butter crackers. You might do it once or twice on a lark. But sooner or later you realize that aiming your nuclear arsenal of criticism at subject the size of a pup tent. It’s just no fun.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2005, 09:41:53 PM »
"David Thomas is a brilliant writer and I now want to read more of his stuff."

Plus he makes a mean Big Bacon Classic.

Steve Kent was pretty dead-on as usual though he was pretty brief in his responses.  Jonny came across well too.  He seemed very unbiased which is good because you would probably assume that the head of a Nintendo site would be noticably biased towards the DS.

What I found funny is that after half of the guys tripped over themselves to see who could gush over the PSP more the "do you think there's a bias" question comes up and it's almost unanimous that the press is biased towards the PSP.  No one said there was a bias towards the DS.  They either dodged the question or said "PSP".

And I think there's a reason for that that goes beyond the Sony name or how "sexy" the PSP is.  There is a bias towards the PSP because game journalists are gamers and PSP games are for gamers.  The DS isn't designed primarily with gamers in mind.  Nintendo's trying to attract non-gamers and more of a broader audience.  So the journalists don't like it as much because it's not for them.  Movie critics are harsh against mainstream popcorn movies.  DS games are like popcorn movies.  They sacrifice depth and complexity to appeal to a mass-market.  Naturally critics are going to be harsher as a result.

Offline Urkel

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RE:Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2005, 10:07:44 PM »
Quote

The DS isn't designed primarily with gamers in mind

The PSP isn't designed primarily with gamers in mind, either. That's why it's got superfluous movie and MP3 playability.

Quote

DS games are like popcorn movies. They sacrifice depth and complexity to appeal to a mass-market.


Are you talking about the games that are out right now, or the DS lineup in general? Yoshi Touch & Go and WarioWare hardly represent what the DS will be like just a few months from now.

Ian, what exactly do you consider "games for gamers"? And what are these "deep and complex" games that the PSP has that the DS doesn't? I wasn't aware that racing games and sports games were only for the hardcore.
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Offline thepoga

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2005, 12:01:15 AM »
whoever Doug Elfman (The Game Dork) is, he's an idiot. He says all this crap about both the PSP and DS that aren't even true! He's biased for the PSP and he doesn't even know about it. He complains about the speakers not being loud enough. Fair. Then he complains: "I can't even buy an attachable booster for it?"

Has he heard of HEADPHONES? The PSP even has ones that let you play/pause/etc from the headphone part while the PSP is in your pocket or whatever. Bottom line: Don't listen to that idiot.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2005, 12:20:45 AM »
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2005, 03:27:43 AM »
There is a bias towards the PSP because game journalists are gamers and PSP games are for gamers.

Um, no. A gamer is excited by the possibility of more innovative games and if gaming was their only reason they'd be pretty evenly split between DS and PSP or more towards the DS. A corporate whore, on the other hand, will support whoever pays him the most.
As for the "non-gamer" argument, I don't see it. Care to prove that there are no games appealing to gamers on the DS? Because last time I checked gamers love stuff like Wario Ware Touched or Kirby CC.

Offline Pale

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2005, 06:27:12 AM »
Yeah Ian... I'm curious as to what part of the PSP lineup is for 'real' gamers?  About the only critically acclaimed game is Lumines which is a puzzle game.  People enjoy Wipeout Pure too, but it definately isn't an unbelievable game.

You guys give all of these corporate sites too much credit.  They like the PSP because its "cooler".  That's all there is to it.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2005, 07:50:56 AM »
"The PSP isn't designed primarily with gamers in mind, either. That's why it's got superfluous movie and MP3 playability."

I didn't say the PSP is designed with gamers in mind I said PSP GAMES are.  They're all very traditional.  The existing gaming crowd is the target market for those titles.

Nintendo has said that the DS is supposed to attract non-gamers.  There are several games for it that are not designed primarily for the traditional gaming crowd.  Therefore a journalist who is a traditional gamer might show more interest in the PSP where literally every game is designed with traditional gamers in mind.

Ignore your own opinion of the DS and PSP libraries.  Think like a mainstream journalist and it becomes pretty obvious which portable has more games targetted towards them.

Offline Pale

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2005, 08:02:19 AM »
::Walks away from a worthless argument::
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2005, 08:38:22 AM »
"Traditional" as in "Yeah, I've played that eight years ago on the Playstation 1". Gamers might like traditional games to some degree but have you listened to the general complaining? Gamers want innovation because the hit-driven business models nowadays give us far too little innovation. What we want is new experiences that are unlike those games we've been playing for the last ten years. The casuals buy those stupid WW2 shooters, they buy those sports games with updated rosters, they buy all those rehashes without complaining. But the gamers complain! They have no issue with going back to their 1995 game if it's better than the rehash released yesterday. Gamers who complain that after all these sequels no Final Fantasy game surpassed 6, that after all this time nothing surpassed Civ 2 or Total Annihilation or Nethack. If you want to see only rehashes, please, stop calling yourself a gamer because you're giving us a bad name.

It's not like Nintendo doesn't deliver its share of "traditional" games, either. New Super Mario Bros? If that's not traditional what is? Castlevania DS? See, third parties are chiming in? Oh no, not released yet! Well, guess what, the game everyone wants for the PSP, GTA:LCS isn't released yet, either.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2005, 09:20:47 AM »
Your opinion of the DS or what a real gamer is or anything like that doesn't matter in this arguement.  I'm saying that in the view of most journalists the PSP is designed more with that kind of person in mind so thus they're biased towards it.  That's it.  That's all I'm saying.  Why is that so hard for some of you to understand?

Offline Deguello

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2005, 10:48:15 AM »
I'd say there is a media bias toward the PSP.  When the DS had some slow month in the early parts of this year, IGN dragged a Nintendo exec up and grilled him about it.

They haven't asked a Sony exec about the slow PSP games schedule and constant delays yet.

Edit:

EGM also had some "E3 report card" or something where they gave the DS a B+ and the PSP a B.  Excuse me, were they even AT E3?  The PSP's showing was ABYSMAL.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2005, 11:11:22 AM »
Those journalists say what their company says they say. And their company says they say what brings in the most ad dollars and exclusives. Perhaps Sony told them they won't get any PS3 previews if they prefer the DS?

What they write flies in the face of public oppinion and reality. There is no bias towards the PSP among the populace, there is no bias towards the PSP among gamers and pretty much the only reason these writers can come up with to back up their oppinion (remember, these people are supposed to have well founded oppinions) is "the PSP is sleek and the screen is gorgeous". Perhaps they'll call the DS "Gimicky" or say they're unsure about its future but they'll gladly proclaim a system with such a severe release drought and no defining title the second coming? Excuse me princess, but isn't that exactly why the Gamecube failed? And suddently, because it's shiny it'll sell? What's Nintendo supposed to do to please those guys? Nintendo is trying to make games instead of graphics tech demos and all that time these idiots were complaining about graphics being so overrated and no innovation to be found yet when a system tries to deliver what they demanded they turn around and say "Well, yes, it's innovative and stuff BUT THE PSP IS SHINY!". Journalistic integrity? Hellooooo? If Sony delivered something semi-innovative they'd praise Sony for it but Nintendo gets bashed. Guess what kind of reaction you'd have seen if Nintendo had introduced the Eyetoy instead of Sony? "Oh, it's some stupid gimmick that'll keep your kids busy for five minutes".

Those journalists are anything but gamers. They clearly fail to portray reality in a semi-objective way. If you want reality, read the Penny Arcade newsposts, those guys are more honest and informative than any major news source. What those magazines and websites do is try to make the average guy feel like he's alone in preferring the DS over the PSP. I can't take them serious after the articles they wrote when the DS was succeeding in spite of the PSP, they read like they were trying to hold the floodgates with all their might.

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2005, 12:39:11 PM »
Nintendo has bias against it and I wonder if it is insurmountable.

It sometimes feels like the Revolution could turn out to be a $99 Star Trek quality Holo Deck with GTA and Halo exclusive and the mainstream gaming media would still bad mouth it and favor the competition


Offline thepoga

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RE:Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2005, 02:14:45 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
"Traditional" as in "Yeah, I've played that eight years ago on the Playstation 1".


Actually, the DS has had more ports. And if gamers want something different, than why is one of the most anticipated games for DS Mario Kart? It doesn't add anything new to the gameplay (online doesn't affect the actual gameplay/mechanics/etc.). Half the tracks are going to be from games we've already played. Is it still fun? YES! Stop being so friggin biased against the PSP for the wrong reasons. Is Metal Gear Acid (I refuse to have that stupid ! as the "i") a rehash of the original? Is Lumines? Ridge Racer is a completely new game for the PSP, unlike the crappy PORT we got for the DS. If you're gonna bash something, know what you're talking about.

The DS also has not so good ports of Rayman, Splinter Cell, NFS: Underground 2, The Urbz, Ridge Racer, Rayman, and GoldenEye (this one doesn't really count because the console version sucked too, but its still a port). So far the DS only has one good port and that's Mario 64 DS.

Offline Deguello

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2005, 02:16:19 PM »
Quote

Actually, the DS has had more ports.


You sure about that?
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2005, 02:16:42 PM »
Quote

Nintendo has said that the DS is supposed to attract non-gamers.  There are several games for it that are not designed primarily for the traditional gaming crowd.  Therefore a journalist who is a traditional gamer might show more interest in the PSP where literally every game is designed with traditional gamers in mind.


I see where you're coming from with this, but I think you're confusing the term "mainstream" with "innovative".

Most of the games released on the DS have stressed innovation, almost as though gaming companies are being smacked with a sort of "peer pressure" to make use of the DS's features as though they'll be blasted by critics for not making use of them, often ending up with frivolous aspects to the game play.

Bomberman DS is an excellent example of how a company can do both right and wrong. First of all, the game is probably one of the DS's best multiplayer titles, I'd say tied for first with Puyo Pop. 8 players on a single cartridge is value you just can't beat. The game makes uses of both of the DS's screens by having dual arenas and pathways to walk between them. Also, on death, the "revenge", a concept which has been seen in nearly every Bomberman to date, relies upon you sliding a stylus or finger upwards on the touch screen to determine the distance you'll launch your revenge bomb. Make a quicker stroke and the bomb will launch further whereas tapping the screen will result in dropping the bomb immediately in front of you. This turns the revenge feature into a fine science which rewards skill and patience and ultimately results in better game play. The system is not shallow by any stretch as it rewards time put in to learning the system with improved performance at the game (if you kill someone with a revenge bomb, you will be brought back to into the game in their place).

However, the game also has the "gimmicks" which plague the first batch of DS games. There are modes where you can detonate your bombs or activate items by shouting into the microphone. On a game play level, this makes no sense. It's simply using the microphone for the sake of using the microphone, and I think THAT is the mentality which has made the current lineup of DS games what they are.

Most of the first round of games were basically tech demos, but once games like Kirby DS started rolling around, they crossed the line from "tech demo" into valid entertainment mediums. Developers were taking baby steps into the DS because it's a non-traditional system, hence why you'll wind up with non-traditional games until someone figures out how to use the DS's features to create a game which is entertaining and is just so because of the fact that it wouldn't have been entertaining without said features.

I think Kirby is the best example of this, as it was the first game which left the realm of tech demo and truly showed us how the stylus can be used to control the entirety of a character's movement.

In summary, I don't think the first round of games were "mainstream" so much as they were "tech demos". The games coming out now are providing genuine entertainment value by taking advantage of the touch screen (Kirby, Meteos, Nintendogs, Lost in Blue, Trauma Center, etc.). I think that the alleged mainstream games are just the natural adjustment period which you can expect when developers are handed a new system.

They're always going to test the water before they learn how to swim.

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2005, 02:55:15 PM »
"I think THAT is the mentality which has made the current lineup of DS games what they are."

That would contribute to the bias.  The PSP made a pretty good first impression.  It had Lumines and console quality games on a portable.  Keep in mind that the high price that was the biggest turnoff didn't apply to jounalists.  They get their PSP for FREE.  The DS on the other hand had a port as the flagship title (and one that any gaming journalist with even the slightest amount of credibility has played a million times already) and a bunch of gimmick games and EA junk.  The DS left a pretty bad first impression, especially compared to the PSP.  So that initial impression affects the opinion of the journalist.

Offline Nephilim

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RE:Developers, Journalists Discuss Handheld Industry
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2005, 02:57:59 PM »
i liked the read
I think its good that Steven L. Kent shared his views, even if he seems very immature with his logic.