Topic: Pearing down the Revolution controller

[Spak-Spang]

Great ideas...and thanks for responding directly to me.  :^)

I am not very fimilar with jog scrolling bars and such.  And I am not quite sure elminating one device (the D-Pad) with one singular more complex device is the answer.

I really think Nintendo wants to drop the D-Pad.  I think they want to go back to when it was a singular directional device on one side and buttons on the other.  Unfortunately you just can't do that with today's 3D games.  Even though doing that would simplify and make games easier to play, it would also render several games impossible to play.

So Nintendo is stuck with there design...limited in some measures.

I agree with you that I think the controller will be a heavily modified standard controller.  But I think those modifications could be revolutionary.

Here is what I mean.  Right now the only buttons that have any definate feeling are Gamecube's shoulder buttons (Dreamcasts shoulder buttons as well.)  What if you enhanced that feeling even more to where gamers understood the amount of pressure applied to the buttons affected the games.  These new triggers could basically be the pressure buttons mentioned...but they aren't a different input they are just stiff enough to apply varying degrees of pressure as comfortable as possible.  All of a sudden you can have a driving game where the driver can feel where 30MPH is on the button and keep it at that speed.  REVOLUTIONARY!!!  Yet, doesn't change the controller at all.

Now Imagine applying that kind of control and precision into the Analog stick (or both analog sticks)  This amount of control has never been achieved or attempted and you can actually feel the difference within controllers.  Again the 2 best controllers for analog control are the N64 and Gamecube, but even those are not good.  I want to be able to feel exactly how sharp I should be turning with holding the Analog stick in a single position.  REVOLUTIONARY!!!!

Buttons should be changed much.  Though a nice SNES layout with dimpled and raised buttons would be nice.  

Shoulder Triggers are going to be needed as buttons 5 & 6 to make other games compatible.  

Once again this also fits with the idea that these controllers will be easy to copy.  Basically, any company could see the quality on the controller and go out and make there controllers equally as good.

[ShyGuy]

It really should have 8 buttons total though. dual triggers? squeezable handles? 6 face buttons?  

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Just throwing this out there, do you guys remember the SpaceOrb? It was an early attempt at 3D control for the PC.

wicked

[DrGAKMANx]

Spak-Spang...
I really wasn't talking about "scroll bars" although scroll wheels (like on a PC mouse) would be ideal for shoulder buttons.  What I was talking about was changing the D-Pad and making it more suitible for todays games while still having that stiff/solid 8 dirrectional feel.  I suggested two ways to change or evolve the D-Pad:
#1- Make it bigger/more rounded (like a big button) and make the whole thing pressure sensitive so it can be as precise as an analog stick while still having that digital flat feeling for certain games.
#2- Keep it the same (rather make a N64 sized D-Pad) and put a jogball in the middle of it.  A jogball is a smaller, softer clickable trackball...I have one on my small SD camera and it's very sensitive (just slightly move your thumb over it and it moves the on-screen curse in that dirrection) and very precise.  This is the better option for evolving the D-Pad 'cos it stays the same when you press it in the 8 dirrectional way, but if you merely rub your thumb over the jogball in the middle of it you get more precision control.

Miyamoto recently stated A) analog control was too hard for some players and B) he doesn't know which should be the central dirrectional control (the D-Pad or the analog stick).  So, to me, if they're keeping both for true backwords compatibility and for ports then they have to do 2 things to coincide with Miyamoto's suggestions.  They need evolve the D-Pad, so that players who prefer it over the analog stick can use it for today's games and secondly they need to make it to where both the stick and the D-Pad can be used primarily instead of one or the other being in a more out of place secondary possition.

As far as your suggestions go for a more advanced analog stick...I think what you're suggesting (a stick that can go around and in and out for spacial 3D control) would not be very durable or even practical.  For instance, let's say a game uses this control scheme of not only going in different dirrections on the normal plane (like an anlog stick does today), but also spacially in and deeper into the controller then you're only asking for it to get stuck and for players to get frustrated when games that use it are going in & out instead of up & down.  A clickable stick, cool...but a dirrectional pressure analog stick would be too much.  Besides Miyamoto said some gamers can't fully "get" analog sticks and this is true...so why make it more complex.

Also true is that he stated that not only did some players not understand the idea of a pressure sensitive analog trigger (like on the GCN's controller), but that they themselves didn't make games that fully used it in gameplay.  When I suggested pressure sensitive grips...I don't think they'll be buttons.  I'm thinking that the controller's grips will be softer (like made of stressball material) and that in that "skin" there will be sensors that sense when they're being pressed in or not...there would be possibly dozens of small sensors throughout the grips skin and the tighter one grips the handles the more of these sensors are pressed and therefore more grip sensitivity is gauged.  This could be used to make turns tighter, punches harder, wrestling grapples, attacks more intense...whatever, it would be it's own large button that people can fully understand better than analog triggers.  "Just grip it tighter" is all you'll have to tell someone who wants to use it's functionality.

Also, when Miyamoto says it'll be easy to copy...I don't think we should take that word for word.  I don't think Nintendo would be giving the competition such a heads-up...I think it's more of a tactic to throw them off as if to say "don't finnish your controller yet" and possibily set them back.  This goes more for Sony than MS since they're the ones who're launching later and, like Nintendo, haven't shown their final controller.  Let's say that my ideas (matched by Nintendo's own words, what Teddman saw/heard & what King Dea *may* know) are true...the Revolution won't be so easily copied 'cos the Revolution is not simply one magic thing...it's a bunch of lil' ones altogether.  

[MrMojoRising]

Instead of the SNES button layout or the GC layout what if you got the best of both worlds by putting a slightly larger A and B (like N64 size) and then for the x and y made the buttons more like the GC ones (kidney shaped).  That way...wait, wait, I actually think that the way the SNES had the buttons concave and bubble worked well enough for that...scratch that.

I just want a better way to figure out which button is A from which button is B...I honestly don't even remember which one is which on the 64 controller.  I really liked that about the GC controller...but I don't really like the idea of just having a little bump on one like the f and j on a keyboard.

As for revolutionary features, I'm thinking that it may be a bunch of little things like Dr.GAKMANx was saying.  How well would a trackball work in place of the second analog stick?  I think it would be nice just because it wouldn't constantly center back to zero when you're aiming in a FPS.  I like the idea of gyros, especially for games like monkey ball and such...but I'm not convinced they could be used as precisely as some of you seem to.  I think some sort of force feedback in the analog sticks would be really cool, but it seems like that's still a ways in the future.  I don't think there is any practical way to get away from the analog stick and the d-pad both being on the controller...especially if you are to be able to play NES through N64 games.

So many questions, so few answers...damn you Nintendo!

[Spak-Spang]

I figured Miyamoto meant the digital click with the Analog Shoulder Buttons...because he later went on to say (If I remember) how he wanted to continue to use the shoulder buttons and find new ways to using them.

That me says they didn't use the digital click feature well, which was the only new feature of the Gamecube.

I don't mind simplifying the controller I think its important to figure out the best means of controlling the games...but if Nintendo is desiring the simplify it too much and take away the ability to have analog control I will be disappointed.

I do agree Nintendo is playing games.  I think each interview is hinting at the controller and give you clues without spilling the beans...and I think Nintendo already has the controller designed except for possible last minute details...

Oh and my analog stick idea wasn't changing the design or setup of the analog stick.  Just the tightness of the controls.  Something that has a little more "weight" and "resistance" to it.  I want it to provide alittle more resistance as I push closer to the edges of the analog stick so I can feel where the stick and therefore have more precise control.

I think people don't grasp analog control because there isn't that resistance.  When you push in a gas pedal there is noticable weight and resistance change as you press it in.  Once you know your car you can feel about where 30MPH is on the pedal.  That needs to be present with analog or it won't feel right.

[DrGAKMANx]

Something just came to my attention.  In the past (when they've described the controller) Reggie has said it needs to be able to play NES, SNES & N64 games, but I never noticed him saying GCN games.  But, on another board I saw Reggie DID include the GCN as a playable platform with the Revolution controller and it's in the IGN FAQ.  I dunno how this slipped past me but that was a big question mark to me (whether the Revolution controller could be used to play GCN games).  Since it can that means that there HAS to be the following:
-main control stick
-4 face buttons
-D-Pad
-secondary stick
-analog buttons with digital click

However, this doesn't mean that they have to remain the same.  Some of these functions could be replaced/modified into more functional features that still work in playing old games.  In fact, going by Teddman says the face buttons are changed and going by what King Dea says the secondary stick is replaced by a trackball...and both agree that this controller can be used to play GCN games.  Teddman says a SNES diamond layout for the buttons though...which loses the GCN simplicity layout...or does it?  I've theorized on this at other boards.  If Nintendo goes back to the old SNES layout I think it's 'cos they wanna make it *look* normal, but they could contour/texturize each button to make them easily identifiable like the GCN layout is.  Here's how:
A-convex with smooth surface, feels normal
B-concave with spiraling surface, feels like quicksand
X-flat with wavy texture, feels like liquidic gel
Y-soft with dotted bumps, feels like rubber

I've further thought about this in regards to GCN games.  The "big A" is lost with this SNES layout 'cos all the buttons are the same size...this may feel out of place and looks out of place when playing GCN games with a GCN HUD on screen.  So, to compensate, I figure a rounded raised surface can be around the A button to make it feel bigger, but actually look normal.

Spak-Spang...
I'm sorry I misunderstood your analog stick idea.  I see nothing wrong with giving the stick more resistance I guess.  Teddman, King Dea and (now, I've found) Reggie says GCN games can be playable with the Revolution's controller.  Which is a releif 'cos it means that both the stick & D-Pad will be there...but Miyamoto's recent comments do suggest there will be changes as he said some people don't "get" the stick and he's debating aloud which is better, the stick or D-Pad for dirrectional control.  Again, this suggests that the D-Pad may be evolved to be able to play today's games and that both the stick & D-Pad will be primary methods of control instead of one being offset to a secondary possition.

You wanna hear my theory?  I haven't finnished it yet, but if what Teddman, Iwata, Miyamoto, King Dea & Reggie are all hinting at is true then I think the Revolution controller will:
-look simpler, less intimidating & less like a toy
-2 thumb possitions, not 4
-comfortable to hold (stressball material in the grips)
-normal button layout, contoured/texturized buttons so players can tell the difference between them
-2 additions more natural to non-gamers: tilt pak control & grip sensitive control
-2 additions more familiar to non-gamers: trackball in place of the C-Stick & clickable toggle wheels in place of the analog buttons
-more advanced "D-Button" more precise to play today's games while keeping the old 8 dirrectional feel for old games
-analog control stick & "D-Button" both in primary possition for dirrectional control
-built-in mic for audible control**
-more immersive force feedback offering not only the feeling of rumble, but also of pulsating, pumping, buzzing, throbbing, etc.*
-also for immersion is a heating/cooling sensory fan*

*These are more/less what King Dea said...I don't really trust him so much, but these features are possible I guess.

**Might be better to have a headset of some kind, but then the feature is sold seperatly which isn't as cool.

I think there could also be some other small features.  I would like a simple built-in screen for settings, button configurations, feature calibration, wireless channel selection, the ability for a remote software power up and reset and maybe even for in-game stuff...otherwise there's gonna have to be some way to do these things in a less practical way.  If there is a way for the system to go mobile then I think it'd be nice to have a mounting system on top of the controller so the player can mount the portable screen on the controller to play games on the go.

[notic]

i think he did say GCN games

[ThePerm]

keyboard and mouse  OMG!

[ShyGuy]

Actually, if backwards compatibility was the only caveat, then the controller would be easy to make. Check out the IQue controller (which I believe was the latest controller nintendo designed.) All you would have to do is add a second control stick and it would play NES, SNES, N64 and Cube, with practicaly no adaptations.

[DrGAKMANx]

Quote
Originally posted by: notic
i think he did say GCN games

Who what now?

He didn't dirrectly say that the Revolution controller would be able to play GCN games, but by sandwiching the GCN games in with the NES, SNES, N64 & Revolution comments, that kinda seals it for me.  I think the reason why GCN may be sorta mentioned as a sidenote is 'cos they wanna make it clear that the NES, SNES & N64 backword compatibility is 'cos they're downloadable...which the GCN games aren't downloaded, but instead played dirrectly from the disc for their backword compatibility.

[notic]

no

[KnowsNothing]

Quote
Originally posted by: notic
i think he did say GCN games

Quote
Originally posted by: DrGAKMANx
Who what now?

Quote
Originally posted by: notic
no

Conversation of the year!

[DrGAKMANx]

Quote
Originally posted by: notic
no

Are you like the forum cut-up?

You said "I think he did say GCN games" and I'm like who...what plays GCN games, who are you talking to and who said it plays GCN games.  So I try to clarify and you simply say "no". HA HA HA!

[Spak-Spang]

DrGAKMANx:  No problem I just wanted to make sure my idea was understood.

I like the textured button idea you have.  I am still unsure about grip buttons, that to me is not a very natural way to play.  I also don't see how you can have only 2 thumb spots and still have an analog stick and D-Pad.  I can see using a trackball to move the C-Stick to a more natural and versatile place...but not the D-Pad.  Maybe I just can't visualize it or imagine it properly.

Whatever the controller I will be excited to see what it becomes.

EDIT::

I just got a look at the IQUE controller.  I love the design.

First, the D-Pad is a very different take on Nintendo's original design and it looks more comfortable, and looks very nice.  The button layout is pretty cool too.

[nemo_83]

I am still thinking about the touching is good, but feeling is better slogan.

[DrGAKMANx]

I'm drawing up a bitmap of my layout idea.  Basically, there's still 4 places (stick, D-Pad, buttons, trackball), but I've bunched them together and it looks like they're not so seperate making 2 thumb placements.  To prevent accidental presses I've incorperated raised/lowered surfaces to make them feel seperated while still having all the functions in primary possition.  My D-Button is also more functional (and larger) so that people who prefer it may use it for even analog control (by lightly rubbing the jogball in the center of it) while still having that stiff 2D 8 dirrectional feel.  It's all coming together nicely.

As for the grips...I'm not really saying they're buttons.  More a "skin" of grip sensitive sensors over the handles.  It may not seem practical to us as gamers, but to non-gamers I think they'll find grip sensitive control easy to understand and very natural.  Have you ever seen early or non-gamers hold the controller and grip it tightly like as if it's going to help make them do more or go faster or whatnot.  This goes hand in hand with early or non-gamers who move the whole controller in hopes of making Mario jump higher or making their F-Zero craft lean into a turn harder.  Now...these two (grip & tilt) can be incorperated into controllers and I think when Iwata made the comment of a mother watching her child play watching him play get's her interested in trying it herself.  Why?  Because non-gamers can understand something like that better than memorizing buttons.  Not saying buttons should be done away with at all, but that attracting non-gamers in with features like that is a start...follow that up with a comfy feel, a controller that isn't intimidating looking or complex and giving them other things they could better understand (like a PC toggle wheel or trackball) and you may have hooked yourself a new gamer.  They'll pick up the buttons (especially if each is contoured/texturized differently) and dirrectional control as they go.

I'm also thinking up something else that is evolved form of the rumble pak.  Basically, it's water displacement and movement inside the grips.  Imagine feeling a pumping feeling like a racing heartbeat or a pulsating feeling like something crawling in your palms...they could use valves to swish the water around in that fasion.  I'm just thinking aloud at this point, but this could be used with the suppossed heating/cooling system that King Dea said was in the controller.

[nemo_83]

blue ball

blurred pics

[Nile Boogie]

Fake and really fake.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Nevermind already posted here

Hint of Revolution's features?

[nemo_83]

They deleted the first topic on the blue ball controller and I think they have deleted the second one at nintendo.com.

[Obiyo]

I wonder why they deleted it?  It could just be that someone said something stupid and got the whole topic moderated, or there could be some truth to the thread and nintendo had it deleted to contain the leak...

[nemo_83]

I found the second topic burried on the third page.

Here is a new picture.  like I said, touching is good, but feeling is better

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Oh YAY, someone else's fake pic with ADDED TEXT!

Must be some new bumps in the tracks, CUZ THE TRAINWRECKS KEEP COMIN.

[notic]

you go girl