Topic: Iwata Keynote Tidbits

[KnowsNothing]

I love it when every hopeful prediction we have made comes true.  I have smile ^_^

As for the Zelda trailor....WOW.  I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the Goron being a tutor, since it looks as if Link and him are in some sort of ring-like arena.  But whatever.  At first I was like, "Wait, Link's riding a giant bore...." but upon watching the trailer again I realized that he slayed a  (Moblin?) and took his ride, which is way cool.  They've taken the whole "pick up your enemy's weapon" to the ++.  

[Pale]

The wireless revolution concept still doesn't make much sense to me.  Personally i think it would make PERFECT sense for the revolution to be a wired device that acts as a gateway for the DS/GBEvo.  Instead of people needing to buy a wireless router they would pick up a rev instead.  I know this has been said before but it just makes too much sense not to be true.  I hope thats what it turns out to be.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

Good lord, this is a fine, fine day. It's been a while since Nintendo has made me feel genuinely great about being a fan (the last time was E3 2004 for the first LoZ trailer), but today earned them a lot of faith and respect in my book. They're handling things like they should be, taking advantage of what's at their disposal. E3 2005 can't come soon enough. As for the new Zelda trailer, I got a lump in my throat. No dramatic single tear fell, but you guys get the idea. I'm a very happy man today.

[dafunkk12]

I know I speak for many people when I say I was hoping they use the new Zelda as a Revolution launch game, but with backwards compatibility, that no longer seems to be a concern.

[Don'tHate742]

Rick you continue to amaze me with your insight. I didn't think much of Iwata's key word "WiFi", I just assumed internet and went on. Now, I understand. It might be hard to include a web browser and the whole nine yards into the DS, but maybe if they do develop a PDA cart as rumored, then they could also develope the TCP/IP language to be more interactive with the internet.

Anyways, like Ian said, Nintendo has got it locked if this WiFi turns out to be a free, user-friendly, interactive "Nintendo Live." Even if Sony does the same, Xbox's main feature is out of the window, along with the Xbox if Nintendo releases the right games (or if the controller is actually...revolutionary). I like the built-in WiFi aspect, since I hate running cords through my house. And to those worried that it won't include an ethernet adapter, I'm sure they'll include it, but who knows.

I have a question for Rick:

What if I take my REV to my friends house to play some Super Smash Bros. Revolution LAN (please...for the love of god please), do I just plot it somewhere in his house and play? Or does he need a wireless router to send information back and forth so that we can play? Rumors speculate the first of my options, but I'd like to here what you think.

[ruby_onix]

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Most importantly, the Revolution will be backwards compatible with all GameCube games. This also confirms that the Revolution will have at least a GameCube controller as input.

That should probably read...

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Most importantly, the Revolution will be backwards compatible with all GameCube games. This also confirms that the Revolution will have at least a GameCube-compatible controller as input, or the option to use an original GameCube controller.

BTW, I have to wonder... Wavebird?

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I've been hearing for well over a year that Revolution would be backwards compatible, so it's nice to see that part has been confirmed. How much, though, is the key ... software is assumed, but what about peripherals? Game Boy Player? Wired Ethernet adaptor? I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather go wired just for the higher throughput.

Hook up the GCN's BBA to the Rev, and get better online? That'd be cool.

Edit: Plus it'd be good for people who don't have a wireless router.

[edgeblade69]

Even with backwards compatability, Nintendo needs Zelda and/or Mario ready for Rev launch. You'd be crazy if you think Nintendo isn't already planning the first Rev Zelda game. They might not have full staff on it yet, but I bet at least 1 person is working on it part time.

I'm pretty happy so far and I hope Nintendo keeps the momentum going through E3 in May. I also hope the DS announcements keep Sony in check.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Holy crap...we all thought it was an amazing concept for Link to be able to use enemies' weapons in WW...but hitching their rides?  That's absolutely amazing.  Oh my God, this is going to be an unbelievable game.

The only things I can think of to make this game better are to stick about 900 FMVs in there, have tons of voice acting, and make it 2 discs or more.  That's the kind of game that's going to sell Cubes by the truckload.  

[- NintendoFan -]

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Originally posted by: edgeblade69
Even with backwards compatability, Nintendo needs Zelda and/or Mario ready for Rev launch. You'd be crazy if you think Nintendo isn't already planning the first Rev Zelda game. They might not have full staff on it yet, but I bet at least 1 person is working on it part time.

I'm pretty happy so far and I hope Nintendo keeps the momentum going through E3 in May. I also hope the DS announcements keep Sony in check.

I think Nintendo plans to launch Rev. with Mario 128.

[Bill Aurion]

The only things I can think of to make this game better are to stick about 900 FMVs in there, have tons of voice acting, and make it 2 discs or more.

You better laugh right now because if you're serious I'm going to have to kick your teeth in...

[Pale]

::Gets in line behind Bill::

[KnowsNothing]

Hahahah, he was joking.  



But it wasn't very funny.

[RickPowers]

"What if I take my REV to my friends house to play some Super Smash Bros. Revolution LAN (please...for the love of god please), do I just plot it somewhere in his house and play? Or does he need a wireless router to send information back and forth so that we can play? Rumors speculate the first of my options, but I'd like to here what you think. "

The WiFi protocol has two components.  Infrastructure mode is where the device (in this case, Revolution) looks for a router to connect to.  In this case, the router manages handing out IP Addresses, DNS, all the stuff that makes the internet work.  Infrastructure mode is much like a Client/Server relationship, with one server, but many clients.

The second component is Ad-Hoc mode, which is where a device like the Nintendo DS would either look for another Nintendo DS to act as host (a pseudo-router, if you will), or will act as host for other devices, but once in the network, it's more of a direct connection.  In Ad-Hoc mode, it's assumed that the devices are only communicating with each other, and is a much simpler way to get connected.  This is a Peer-To-Peer relationship, where essentially, all of the devices communicate directly with one another, with no real central authority.

I would have to assume that Revolution will be looking for a router to connect to primarily, so it would be an Infrastructure mode device.  It depends on how much of that Nintendo wants people (read: kids) to have to manage.  Setting up a wireless network is simple, but not exactly easy when using disparate devices.  If Nintendo wants Revolution to be a zero-configuration device, I'd assume that it will look for a router, and if it doesn't find one, starts looking for other Revolution devices (to create a mini-LAN).

I don't rule out the possiblity that Revolution might be able to act as a wireless router itself, but I can't see Nintendo adding this kind of complexity to the device.

[Don'tHate742]

Ok, thanks.

What if the game has a LAN mode, as well as an internet mode? Couldn't you just program the REV to look for other REV's when in LAN mode, and to look for a router if in internet mode?

I guess in the end it doesn't matter, since you commented on looking for one then the other. But what if you want to just play LAN games? I think there definitely needs to be an option for what the card is looking for. Also, do you think it's possible to have a configuration that hooks up two gamecubes sitting side-by-side online (via router) but as a pack? I'm thinking some program in your PC or REV is need for something like that.

Also, what do you think about it hooking up to a computer monitor? I can't see any good coming from this unless your: A) a college student  B) just now broke your TV or C) are a high-rez junkie. Do you have any thoughts on that?  

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: RickPowers
Wired Ethernet adaptor? I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather go wired just for the higher throughput.

Come now, your not trying to convince me that I need a 100 Mbps connection between my console and ISP, when 90% of the ISP's services to home probably fall under 5Mbps from the outside world (even less to it).

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That said, WiFi is the "marketing name" for the 802.11b wireless communication protocol. What WiFi is NOT is a network protocol, per se, like TCP/IP. That is the current problem the Nintendo DS has. It can connect to a wireless hotspot, but doesn't know how to communicate once it does. Think of it this way ... 802.11b is the type of phone you use to call people, TCP/IP is the language you use once they pick up the phone. That's an oversimplification, but I think it serves it's purpose.

802.11b is a link layer protocol, it allows information to flow from one side to the other (think your DS to your wireless router), IP gets you across multiple points, and TCP separates communication for end points...   That's probably a little better of an oversimplification.

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The reason they keep saying WiFi is that they are being technically correct, as well as it being something people understand better than talking about 802.11b or TCP/IP. My guess is that it is up to the games to support the network language, and in this case, perhaps Nintendo is going with a different network standard? They talk about having to set up infrastructure, so it's not out of the realm of possibility, which is why they keep referring to "worldwide wireless play", and never mentioning Internet.

Different network standard?  First, Nintendo is not going to set up there own global infrastructure, or even national infrastructure.  That *IS* out the realm of possibility.  They couldn't afford it .  They likely mean that they'll sponsor hotspots or work with hotspot providers to make them compatible with the DS.  Right now the DS has no means to enter any kind of credentials.   There are a lot of airports with "WiFi coverage" for travelers... I don't know of many that will give it to you for free.  In order to work in that kind of environment, the DS, or it's software, would have to compensate (provide a way to interface, enter CC info, etc).  Either that or have open hotspots.

-Shecky ...  who's about ready to walk out of saag, where they're talking about all this security gunk, and get dinner.

[RickPowers]

Technically speaking, there is no difference between a LAN game and an Internet game, aside from how much time it takes to send a piece of information (a packet) from one machine to the other.  That's why we were so frustrated when Nintendo was supporting LAN play with GameCube and not Internet play ... there was no TECHNICAL reason why they couldn't support both!

As for the other hook up potential ideas, as I stated before, it all depends on how much Nintendo wants to allow people to fiddle with the connection settings.  I'd like to say that they'll allow you to do just about anything, but I honestly don't think that will happen.  Nintendo wants this to be as seamless as possible, and while that will restrict some of the more "creative" options, it'll also make the over all experience better.

[RickPowers]

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Originally posted by: Shecky
Come now, your not trying to convince me that I need a 100 Mbps connection between my console and ISP, when 90% of the ISP's services to home probably fall under 5Mbps from the outside world (even less to it).

Internet connections are getting faster and faster every day.  It's called "forward thinking".

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Originally posted by: Shecky
Different network standard?  First, Nintendo is not going to set up there own global infrastructure, or even national infrastructure.  That *IS* out the realm of possibility.  They couldn't afford it .  They likely mean that they'll sponsor hotspots or work with hotspot providers to make them compatible with the DS.  Right now the DS has no means to enter any kind of credentials.   There are a lot of airports with "WiFi coverage" for travelers... I don't know of many that will give it to you for free.  In order to work in that kind of environment, the DS, or it's software, would have to compensate (provide a way to interface, enter CC info, etc).  Either that or have open hotspots.

I think you misunderstood me.  I mean, they could use a totally different routable protocol to get the Revolution units talking with a central matchmaking server.  They wouldn't even have to re-create the wheel, just use an existing protocol that's not often used, to minimize crosstalk.  My point is that Nintendo stated quite assuredly that they were working on the "infrastructure", which to me sounds like more than just matchmaking servers, but I could be mistaken.

I have another reason for this assumption, though, and it has to do with Piracy control.  As soon as people figured out how to talk to the GameCube with the network adaptor, people found out how they could dump GCN ROMS.  Going with an obscure protocol means that it would be harder to get your Revolution talking with your computer.  It's not about making it foolproof, but just hard enough where people might give up before cracking it.  Frankly, they might even be able to do it with malformed TCP packets.

As for the paid hotspots, I can't see Nintendo cutting any such deals.  That would put Nintendo into a business that it has no business being involved with.  I think that the assumption is that you're going to have free access to the hotspot you connect to, whether at home, school, lan cafe, or whatever.  Although, it might even be possible for a paid wifi hotspot to pass "non-internet traffic" out without requiring a sign-on.  I've never tried that.  Might be worth an experiment.

Sorry to anyone not quite following this.  I try to keep it simple for the majority of you, but sometimes, it's fun to get into the nuts and bolts.  

[Grant10k]

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Holy crap...we all thought it was an amazing concept for Link to be able to use enemies' weapons in WW...but hitching their rides? That's absolutely amazing. Oh my God, this is going to be an unbelievable game.

GTA: Hyrule
or GTE, Grand Theft Equine

[NWR_Lindy]

Yeah, that's my favorite part of the trailer - when Link hops on the boar and it drops its head and plows through those monsters.  It's SO lord of the rings and I absolutely love it.

silks

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: RickPowers
I think you misunderstood me.  I mean, they could use a totally different routable protocol to get the Revolution units talking with a central matchmaking server.  They wouldn't even have to re-create the wheel, just use an existing protocol that's not often used, to minimize crosstalk.  My point is that Nintendo stated quite assuredly that they were working on the "infrastructure", which to me sounds like more than just matchmaking servers, but I could be mistaken.

I have another reason for this assumption, though, and it has to do with Piracy control.  As soon as people figured out how to talk to the GameCube with the network adaptor, people found out how they could dump GCN ROMS.  Going with an obscure protocol means that it would be harder to get your Revolution talking with your computer.  It's not about making it foolproof, but just hard enough where people might give up before cracking it.  Frankly, they might even be able to do it with malformed TCP packets.

Shecky goes to cry on Jon Postel's grave.  Seriously though, security through obscurity is not security at all.  Nintendo would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing their own things, or malforming current ones.  I'm sure Nintendo will use standard security measures to protect what needs protecting (such as logging into the matchmaking server).  Most game data won't need it.

(I'm sure the rom thing you alluded to required more than just talking over the adapter - probably needed physical changes to the hardware, which from a security standpoint is a bear to protect against.   If it didn't, then that's Nintendo's fault b/c there's no good reason to be shipping that data over the adapter under any normal circumstance -- or it was b/c they banked on security through obscurity )

[Djunknown]

I'm going on intuition that Piracy didn't hurt the 'Cube too much: Its just too cumbersome to be worthwhile. I'll assume it will be the same with Revolution.

They officially acknowledged backwards compatbibity, but they didn't say to what extent.  See the DS as an example. While it could mean it the Rev can support 'Cube controllers, it can also mean the Rev controller will be able to to what the 'Cube can do. We'll just to have to wait and see....

[RickPowers]

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Originally posted by: Shecky
Shecky goes to cry on Jon Postel's grave.  Seriously though, security through obscurity is not security at all.  Nintendo would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing their own things, or malforming current ones.  I'm sure Nintendo will use standard security measures to protect what needs protecting (such as logging into the matchmaking server).  Most game data won't need it.

(I'm sure the rom thing you alluded to required more than just talking over the adapter - probably needed physical changes to the hardware, which from a security standpoint is a bear to protect against.   If it didn't, then that's Nintendo's fault b/c there's no good reason to be shipping that data over the adapter under any normal circumstance -- or it was b/c they banked on security through obscurity )

Actually, security through obscurity does work, and the GameCube is proof-positive.  The GD-ROMs are nothing more than miniature DVDs, written backwards.  While ROMS have been dumped, there has yet to be a single disc successfully burned (or if there has, it's being kept VERY quiet).  Nintendo has used a similar model with each console.  The entire idea is to keep the process just difficult enough to keep the honest people honest.  That was the problem (and arguably, part of the popularity) of the first PlayStation ... copying discs was ridiculously easy.  As for whether or not they will be shooting themselves in the foot, I completely disagree, and there is little evidence to suggest otherwise.

The "ROM thing I alluded to" did require more than just talking over the adapter, it required a flawed PSO disc, and a small trick which would get the game to dump it's contents over the ethernet adapter, but it was a relatively minor issue.  Once that was discovered, someone figured out how to boot PSO, enable the ethernet adapter, then dump other games as well.  Regardless, the ROMs were worthless at that point since they couldn't be used on a console, and a working GCN emulator is years away.  It's worth noting that even this wouldn't have happened if the PSO disc hadn't been bugged, so it's safe to say that Nintendo's "security through obscurity" model worked quite well.

Remember, since Nintendo isn't looking to be compatible with any devices other than their own, it doesn't matter what methods they choose, as long as they WORK.  Hell, even going with straight internet standards is no safe bet ... Sony had a hell of a time at the launch of their network adapter trying to get people online (so much so that I even wrote a FAQ).  Whatever route Nintendo chooses, I'm certain it will "just work".

[KDR_11k]

Rick: The problem with the discs wasn't knowing how they work, it was with replicating them using end-user level hardware. Software can always be reproduced. Once they know what you're doing they're able to catch it. There are no physical limits to software and what can be decoded can be cracked. You could RSA-encode all packets but in the end wouldn't have any advantage from that. If they can't attack your net data they'll attack elsewhere. Few cheats actually alter the data itself, many delay the packets or the console's RAM. Unless you're building the perfect TCPA system there'll always be attack points and even with TCPA I'd say there's a good chance someone will break it.

[RickPowers]

Yes, I understand that, and that was precisely my point.    While it will certainly be possible to figure out the protocol Nintendo would be using (assuming my hypothesis is even valid, which I'm not entirely sure of myself), the return on investment is likely going to be so low that most won't bother.  Some people will, just for the challenge, but my point is that when the average person won't, the job is done.

That was why I was saying that the PlayStation ended up having a hard time towards the end of it's lifespan (and incidentally, why I think that Sony rushed the PS2 to market), because it was possible to rip and burn a PlayStation game with a standard CD Burner, and CD Burners had just hit critical mass.  Bad timing.

[vudu]

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Holy crap...we all thought it was an amazing concept for Link to be able to use enemies' weapons in WW...but hitching their rides? That's absolutely amazing. Oh my God, this is going to be an unbelievable game.

I'm actually kinda surprised some Xbox fanboy hasn't come here screaming about how Zelda is ripping off Halo 2.