Topic: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC

[Hemmorrhoid]

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Originally posted by: Lord_die_seis
No Zoonami isnt owned by Nintendo their a Indy developer.  Martin Hollis from Zoonami did help with the development with gamecube though.

your sure? I thought Nintendo invested in them, or owned a part of them or both.

[Bill Aurion]

I'm sure there's been a bit of "behind the curtain" investing by Ninty, but nothing official...  

[Hemmorrhoid]

and why were they always somehow linked or affiliated to Nintendo?

[Rancid Planet]

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Originally posted by: Hemmorrhoid
and why were they always somehow linked or affiliated to Nintendo?

I don't know. Why do little boys always think Cher is a man?

[Hemmorrhoid]

Cher is not a man?

Well, I think any game they would have in the works for Nintendo would be expected on Revolution anyway.

[Gamefreak]

They have lots of ties to Nintendo, and Nintendo probably invested in them a little, but it's not enough to keep them from releasing multiplatform. For that music game anyway. I heard they only have 5 people or something working on the music game. I wouldn't be surprised if their biggest project is Nintendo-exclusive.

After all, most of the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark team left Rare and joined either Zoonami or Free Radical (Timesplitters, Second Sight). And Zoonami's big chief, Martin Hollis (directer of Perfect Dark) left Rare after Perfect Dark and joined Nintendo during the development of GCN, then after development of GCN was done founded Zoonami.

[Deguello]

For a website with such a big spy motif, it sure is strange to be working on a music game.    Unless it's a cover!

[couchmonkey]

I think Rare and Silicon Knights both have plenty of talent left, it's just that when you only have enough developers to release a game every year or two, you get judged on your last project for a looooong time.  Nobody's saying Nintendo's lost its touch because of Mario Pinball, even though it's not a great game, because they put out great games right before and after it was released.

[Hemmorrhoid]

its hard to say what happened to Rares talent, but I just have the feeling that they kinda lost their "magic" with the withdrawal of Nintendo

ok, Starfox sucked too, but that was rushed and manipulated, but the other games in the work like Kameo etc, seemed so magical, like the good old banjo kazooie etc fun

in general, i feel that both SK and Rare are replacable, and Nintendo will find ways to fill the gap

[Truthliesn1seyes]

IMO Nintendo is always looking for new indie developers to support.  After seeing what Pokemon did for them why wouldnt they lol.  I'm sure Nintendo will find another few indie groups that are coming up to fill in for SK and Rare.  Seems like thats how Nintendo works.  They helped support the Pokemon team (forgot their name)  Under Nintendo's guidence is when Rare really began to shine.  Same with SK to a smaller extent.  Now look at Retro, they were built from the ground up, Nintendo bought them and assisted with input on Metriod Prime and look at them now.  Nintendo is the holy grail to indie developers (warrented they have enough skill to provide a return on Nintendo's investment)

[xts3]

I think the goal for microsoft was to stop rare developing exclusive hits for the GC, not so much that they wanted them to make good games for the xbox, it was more trying to stop development of system selling games.  And RARE was a key developer, they were practically the "Blizzard" of the N64.

[Bill Aurion]

Except that makes absolutely no sense...Rare didn't "sneak" away from Ninty, Ninty outright SOLD Rare to Microsoft because they were no longer being profitable...So if MS' plan was to steal away GC-exclusive games, Ninty really didn't care and profitted more from the deal than MS did...

[Berto2K]

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Originally posted by: xts3
I think the goal for microsoft was to stop rare developing exclusive hits for the GC, not so much that they wanted them to make good games for the xbox, it was more trying to stop development of system selling games.  And RARE was a key developer, they were practically the "Blizzard" of the N64.

Wow, that is so 100% wrong its not even funny.  Rare wasn't living up to even their known expectations for development.  Nintendo saw that their money might be better uesed elsewhere and put Rare out for purchase.

[Ian Sane]

"Rare wasn't living up to even their known expectations for development."

This seems to be the common excuse to justify Rare's departure but I find it's full of holes.  Star Fox Adventures sucked but the games Rare made right before that were Conker's Bad Fur Day, Banjo-Tooie, and Perfect Dark, all of which are AMAZING games.  So it seems silly to say that Rare lost it because of one game.  And keep in mind this a game that switched platforms partially through development and had to be redesigned to use the Star Fox licence (which Nintendo forced upon Rare).  That doesn't mean that had Dinosaur Planet been released on the N64 that it would have been a classic but at the very least it's a legit reason for the game's long development time and some of the sh!tty parts of the game were the fault of the shoehorned Star Fox licence.  So after a nearly flawless record on the N64 Rare flubs ONE game, which had numerous problems with its development beyond Rare's control, and suddenly they suck and it's a good idea for Nintendo to sell them?

Now you can say that Rare hasn't performed up to expectations on the Xbox but they do now have a different publisher which is going to change things (plus Grabbed by the Ghoulies switched platforms as well).  You can't for sure say that if Rare stuck around with Nintendo that things would be the same.  I don't miss Rare in the sense that they have released anything for the Xbox yet that I wish was on the Cube.  But I miss the potential and I miss the variety they provided to Nintendo's lineup (which has been dreadly unoriginal since Rare left).  It also bothers me that Nintendo has made ZERO effort to full the hole in their lineup caused by Rare's departure.

[Hostile Creation]

Man, I just hate Rare.  I didn't like SFA, Donkey Kong 64 sucked, I didn't like Banjo-Tootie, Donkey Kong Country is pretty good, as is Killer Instinct, but nothing mind-boggling there either.  I haven't played Perfect Dark or Conker's Bad Fur Day, though the latter did not appear to be very special.  Appearances are not everything, though.

Grabbed by Ghoulies looked less than marvelous, dare I say it.  I hate Rare.  I just hate em.

[ruby_onix]

It had nothing to do with StarFox Adventures.

Rare's stock (as a whole) was supposedly worth something under 500 million dollars. The Stampers owned 51%, and Nintendo owned 49%. The Stampers wanted to bail out while they were ahead, and sell their 51% to Nintendo, which would've been by far the biggest investment in Rare that Nintendo had ever made. Nintendo didn't think it was worth that much. (Does anyone know how much Nintendo paid for Retro? Or Brownie Brown? Or Rare?) So Nintendo asked the Stampers to look elsewhere. Microsoft was willing to buy, but they wanted the whole thing, or nothing. Rather than hanging the Stampers out to dry, Nintendo sold their 49% back to the Stampers (on credit, because the Stampers didn't have hundreds of millions of dollars), and the Stampers sold the company to Microsoft.

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It also bothers me that Nintendo has made ZERO effort to full the hole in their lineup caused by Rare's departure.

Exactly one month after it was announced that Nintendo sold Rare back to the Stampers, it was announced that the European Union had decided to fine Nintendo $150 million on accusations of NES/SNES-era price fixing.

[Caillan]

Rare was still a good developer. If nothing else, Perfect Dark 2 would have rounded the Cube's lineup nicely. It probably wouldn't have been delayed until the next generation if it hadn't had a change of platform, come under new management, had half its team leave it, and the remainder border on strike because of crap pay/management either. Ian has pointed out why SFA was delayed, and Rare made plenty of great games before that.

During 64 generation, I looked foward to Rare's games more than EAD's. Blast Corps (which is in desperate need of a sequel), Diddy Kong Racing, Goldeneye, Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, Jet Force Jemini, Perfect Dark and Conquer's Bad Fur Day were all great games, and that's eight in a generation. Combine those with the good-but-not-great Killer Instinct Gold and DK 64 and that's ten games, 80% of which were of a very high quality. How many did EAD make?

Spending profits on studios that were either nonexistant (Retro) or made crap games (N-Space) is not a good strategy.

EDIT: Opps, my bad about Perfect Dark 2.

[ruby_onix]

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Rare was still a good developer. If nothing else, Perfect Dark 2 would have rounded the Cube's lineup nicely. It probably wouldn't have been delayed until the next generation if it hadn't had a change of platform, come under new management, had half its team leave it, and the remainder border on strike because of crap pay/management either.

The Free Radicals jumped ship as soon as Perfect Dark was completed. Martin Hollis quit/was fired after that, but before the move to Microsoft (which pounded the final nail in Rare's Goldeneye/PD team).

The "Joanime" Dark concept art which was revealed when they moved to Microsoft is apparently all that exists (or ever existed) of Perfect Dark Zero. Perhaps if Rare was still with Nintendo, they wouldn't be pretending that they still had the ability to make another Perfect Dark, but I doubt it.

As for Rare's worth, I think it's like Star Trek TNG/DS9/Voyager. They hire a bunch of unknown actors. They do good work. They become famous. Ratings go up. Their pay goes up. And up. And eventually the studio can't afford to make the show anymore. The show gets canned. Everyone gets fired. We're lucky if we get to see Seven of Nine in Boston Public. The studio hires new unknown actors and starts up a new series. We all complain that these people are noobs and we want more TNG. But they do good work. They become famous. Ratings go up. Their pay goes up. We start to feel good about watching Star Trek again. Just at the wrong time. It never ends. Unless the movie studio starts buying orphans.


Edit: Oh by the way, there was apparently a rumor coming out of an XBox forum a few weeks ago saying that Rare's super-fantastic Goldeneye/PD team has been working nonstop on Halo 3 since the success of Halo 1 (while Bungie was working on Halo 2), and that it'll be out next year and will blow everyone's minds. I think it's absurd, but it gave me the idea that Microsoft might have Bungie make the next Perfect Dark, which would mean that another Perfect Dark could be possible, and only because Rare was sold to Microsoft.

[Bill Aurion]

"(Does anyone know how much Nintendo paid for Retro? Or Brownie Brown? Or Rare?)"

Wasn't Retro purchased for a measly 1 million dollars?

"Spending profits on studios that were either nonexistant (Retro) or made crap games (N-Space) is not a good strategy."

Oh it sure is!  Smaller studios are more open to creative ideas, and Ninty has given them a new lease on life...Wouldn't it be a shame if Retro had been ignored and died a horrible death by making movie licenses or being bought by EA?

[Mario]

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I think it's absurd, but it gave me the idea that Microsoft might have Bungie make the next Perfect Dark

OH GOD NO. NOOO! I want the next Perfect Dark to be PERFECT DARK. I want it to play like the original, I want a SEQUEL not some completly different game that uses the name Perfect Dark.

[Ian Sane]

Retro wasn't some small indie developer that Nintendo bought.  It was a second party they formed.  Metroid Prime is Retro's first game.  Retro was having a lot of problems so Nintendo decided to save their investment and buy them outright.  Had Retro just been some developer that Nintendo hired to make MP they probably wouldn't have bought them and instead would have fired their ass and brought on someone new.

N-Space however needs to prove themselves.  I have no idea why Nintendo is interested in them since they have never made anything even remotely good.  At least Rare had Battletoads and SK had Blood Omen to show that they were capable devs beforehand.

"Rare's stock (as a whole) was supposedly worth something under 500 million dollars. The Stampers owned 51%, and Nintendo owned 49%. The Stampers wanted to bail out while they were ahead, and sell their 51% to Nintendo, which would've been by far the biggest investment in Rare that Nintendo had ever made. Nintendo didn't think it was worth that much. (Does anyone know how much Nintendo paid for Retro? Or Brownie Brown? Or Rare?) So Nintendo asked the Stampers to look elsewhere. Microsoft was willing to buy, but they wanted the whole thing, or nothing. Rather than hanging the Stampers out to dry, Nintendo sold their 49% back to the Stampers (on credit, because the Stampers didn't have hundreds of millions of dollars), and the Stampers sold the company to Microsoft."

So Nintendo basically sold their greatest non-Japanese asset to a competitor because they didn't want to hang the Stampers out to dry and didn't think Rare was a worth investment?  LAME.  Another example of Nintendo only thinking about the present.  They promised us Rare games when we bought Cubes.  They lied.  Lying to your fanbase and essentially conning them is going to cost you more in the long run then investing in a developer with one of the best track records ever.  All selling Rare did was tie another anchor around a console with little mobility to begin with.  How can we trust that buying a Revolution is a solid investment when like 80% of Nintendo's promises regarding the Cube were broken over silly business crap focused entirely on the present?

[odifiend]

Though I was incredibly pissed when Rare was first sold, the only thing that was lost with Rare are licenses.  Rare as a developer is no longer in tact, so why should Nintendo invest 250 million+ in them?  Not only would they be purchasing an 'incomplete' product since their FPS division jumped ship, they'd be purchasing a company that never meets deadlines, has many internal problems and pretty much produced Nintendo clones.  Banjo Kazooie was close to Mario 64, DDK racing was an enchanged Mario Kart 64, Dinosaur Planet was bad Zelda.  Don't get me wrong - Rare has made great games and they have other accomplishments, but you act like we've lost all sorts of diversity with Rare.  I am so sorry that we can't play diddy kong tennis =/...
And what has Rare done since they left? Grabbed by the Ghoulies, another damn port of Donkey Kong Country, a port of Conker's BFD and I think maybe Saburwulf.  

[Hemmorrhoid]

I personally think Nintendo splitting from Rare was a blow, but a digestable one in the long run.
What really frustrates me is how little Nintendo did after that, the had a load of cash at their disposal, and the knew they lost some well renowned exclusives.
They bought out Retro which was an excellent move, but after that not alot happened.

As always, its hard to follow Nintendos strategic thinking, they made mistakes with the N64, they IMO made even bigger mistakes with GCN.

I just hope they figure out what they did wrong in time for Revolution, yet keeping their unique touch.

[Ian Sane]

"As always, its hard to follow Nintendos strategic thinking, they made mistakes with the N64, they IMO made even bigger mistakes with GCN."

I think they fixed a lot of big mistakes with the N64 and have made a lot of little ones with the Cube.  There's no Cube related mistake as huge as sticking with cartridges on the N64.  The Cube's all about tons of little mistakes and they add up so in the end the Cube's total mistake "measurement" is higher.  So I guess in the end I agree with you I'm just mathematically thinking about it differently.

[Hemmorrhoid]

Well, you pretty much convey what I meant to do Ian, anyway, as you said, too many little things went wrong with the GCN.

BTW, in the current IGN mailbag Matt says something about the "real" story behind the breakup of Nintendo and SK. What could that mean?