Author Topic: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC  (Read 59114 times)

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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #150 on: May 11, 2005, 08:58:38 PM »
There's more to this than Dyack is letting on...His body language is ridiculously easy to read...(Oh wtf, Ian post...*earplugs*)
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #151 on: May 11, 2005, 08:59:15 PM »
"If I was a developer working with Nintendo and they told me I had to make stuff like Kirby Air Ride I'd leave too."

Yes, just like Nintendo told Retro to dumb down Echoes.

"I wouldn't say that Metroid Prime and the new Zelda is good enough evidence to suggest that Nintendo isn't focusing on simpler games. That's not a change they would make on the Gamecube. The Cube userbase is established and already expects certain things."

If that's the case, then why make a new Zelda in the first place? They already made one for the GC. Sorry Ian, your argument doesn't make sense to me.

"Hell, just look at the DS. I bought the GBA for games like Metroid Fusion, Advance Wars, Golden Sun, Fire Emblem, and The Minish Cap. There's nothing like that currently on the DS. There's some stuff like that in the pipeline but there's nothing here yet."

At this point in the GBA's lifecycle all there was for it was Castlevania. Your argument is flawed... there's a whole lot of games like that in the pipeline, and Kirby for example is already out in Japan. Your problem isn't with Nintendo's philosophy, it's just a lack of patience.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2005, 09:09:42 PM »
"If that's the case, then why make a new Zelda in the first place? They already made one for the GC. Sorry Ian, your argument doesn't make sense to me."

What I mean is that when the Cube launched SK and Nintendo were on the same page and Nintendo had never mentioned anything about making "simpler" games.  So the userbase that came to the Cube was the type of gamers expecting and wanting titles like Metroid and Zelda.  People bought the Cube expecting deep, long & complex games.  No one bought a Cube expecting simple games.  The concept just didn't exist at the time.  So making a new Zelda makes sense because that's what the userbase wants and expects.  Nintendo can't just say "okay our focus is little quirky simple games from now on" and expect it to fly with the Cube userbase because that's not what the console established itself as.  They can however do that with the Rev.  There's no Rev userbase yet.  They can choose to establish the console as one for simple games if they want to.

Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2005, 09:13:53 PM »
So how come SK left now, then? Why didn't they make another game for the GC? How come complex Zelda didn't get axed but SK did?

Besides, I'm having a very hard time believing that Zelda Rev is going to be simple.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #154 on: May 11, 2005, 09:21:05 PM »
"So how come SK left now, then? Why didn't they make another game for the GC? How come complex Zelda didn't get axed but SK did?"

I assume because they didn't like where things were headed and wanted to explore their options with the competition before the next gen started so they could get in on one of the next generation machines right off the bat.

If Nintendo started focusing on simple games on the Rev would you be surprised?  They've been shilling that concept since Iwata took over.  I'm just saying that what they're doing on the Cube isn't an indication of what they're going to do on the Rev.  If they're going to change their focus they have to do at some point and a launch of a new console is a better time to do it then the tail end of a console that already has certain style of gaming associated with it.

Offline odifiend

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #155 on: May 11, 2005, 09:23:22 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Either I'm getting senile or it was definitely more than a year ago. It was near the beginning of Iwata's reign, unless I'm mistaken. I remember discussions specifically about how Retro and SK were proof that Nintendo wasn't being simple in all its games.

"P.S. I have this condition called fed-up-with-the-same-game-itis so currently it is impossible for me to anticipate a pokemon game."

Yeah... but like I said, you still have to admit that's going to be anything but a small or simple game. Does not compute.


I keep coming up with the week of may 26 th, 2004 for when Iwata went on record to say that gamers didn't what complex games.  I know that Yamauchi had mentioned the complexity issue prior to that in 2001, but it wasn't as eyecatching as Iwata's verbiage.  That would put the simplicity push at a year.  I think the Retro and SK thing was proof that Nintendo was catering to an older audience.

And not exactly disagreeing with you, but pokemon is simple and complex.  The type relationships are mostly common-sencial in the style of rock, paper, scissors.  Each character gets 4 moves.  You battle until you are out of characters.  The game is incredibly easy to pick up and play.  But on the other hand you have your 300+ monsters, battles, rivals, plot, etc...
But which do you really classify Pokemon as complex or simple?  The interface is just too manageable for it to be a complex game, all you need is the dpad and one button.  Nintendo tried a similar interface with Kirby's Air Ride and I think most would agree that is a simple game, (in fact that is the game that pops up for me everytime simplicity in games is mentioned).  But you insinuated that Pokemon was complex and that was likely due to the depth of the game.  It seems that many of the simpler games, which as Ian said are most prevalent on the DS, go only for easy interface instead of that in combination with other things and relationships going on.  I am not saying Nintendo needs to achieve Pokemon status with all their games, but if the sales of Pokemon are any indication, it is clear that gamers do want complexity.  /rant
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Offline MaleficentOgre

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #156 on: May 11, 2005, 10:31:12 PM »
Dennis just spent five minutes stuttering and talking out of his ass.  that made no sense to me whatsoever.  he's just sitting there contradicting himself.  I'd rather have him just come out and tell the truth, no matter how shallow it is. It would be better than listening to what I just heard.

Offline Caillan

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2005, 03:24:54 AM »
Dennis may be under a confidentiality contract that prevents him from saying much more.

Quote

There's more to this than Dyack is letting on...His body language is ridiculously easy to read...(Oh wtf, Ian post...*earplugs*)


Please elaborate. I mean, I realise he's talking crap but I don't really see what he's hinting at. He throws about the usual courtesies which mean nothing and says that Silicon Knights will do what they want. Looking nervous the whole way through. Can any of the staff tell us if he's usually like that?

Do we know if they left Nintendo or if Nintendo gave them the boot yet?

Offline MaleficentOgre

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #158 on: May 12, 2005, 03:43:47 AM »
Dennis: EA makes us hot
Iwata: We're not shelling out the money for you to build an empire in canada.
Dennis: but BIGGER MAN!  BIGGER! Like, dude.  EA is HUGE and they put out like fifty million games, and we love it cause they make the bling.
Iwata: their games are ass.  we make good ones without spending five billion on useless crap.
Dennis: soooo, how much extra money will you give us.
Iwata: well, ED sold like ass. and MGSTT sold like ass, soooooooo nothing.  make us something hot and we'll improve your budget upon seeing the fire
Dennis: ummmm, no. we're fine.
Yuji:  DENNNIISSSSSSS! We got cash! We can be like EA!!!
Dennis: You heard that mr. Iwata?
Iwata: go.
Dennis: WHAAAAT?
Iwata: We're not giving you the money, go home.
Dennis: oh.  okay.
Iwata: Tell yuji he's still our personal gimp, and have a nice day
Dennis: ummmm. you sure, cause we were just kind of joking.  we really really don't want to make astro boy death factor on ps3. really we don't.
Iwata: Nah, we've already given your money to Retro and intelligent systems.  sorry 'bout that.
Dennis: well. okay.  I still love you, so if you. . .y'know
Iwata: nah. go ahead
Dennis: alright. and umm, keep in touch okay!
Yuji: SCOOOOOOOORE! Time to get workin' on Amy's malice clone guys.  here's some cash, go buy the unreal engine.  it'll make rose look even better than she already does.  [insert devil horns here]  

Offline FFantasyFX

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #159 on: May 12, 2005, 04:27:46 AM »
Quite frankly, I'm pretty sure that it came down to money in the end rather than philosophy.  Apparently, Silicon Knights has doubled its staff since the breakup with Nintendo.  While Nintendo probably was willing to continue funding SK at current levels, I doubt they were going to bankroll a Rare-like expansion without SK first having a Rare-like hit.  Thus, SK broke ranks with Nintendo and found someone who was willing to bankroll their expansion - Sega (with perhaps Microsoft as a second partner if the shadowy rumors are correct).

Offline odifiend

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #160 on: May 12, 2005, 04:33:45 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: MaleficentOgre
Dennis just spent five minutes stuttering and talking out of his ass.  that made no sense to me whatsoever.  he's just sitting there contradicting himself.  I'd rather have him just come out and tell the truth, no matter how shallow it is. It would be better than listening to what I just heard.


lol,  it is funny because "stuttering and talking out of ass" is exactly how I would characterise all of Iwata's speeches prior to GDC.  
How would Nintendo give them the boot?  I pretty sure they are independently owned, so a kick out is not possible like it was for Rare.  However if contracts are involved possibly Nintendo didn't renew.  Still to me, it sounds like SK initiated the end of the second party agreement.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #161 on: May 12, 2005, 05:42:21 AM »
English isn't Iwata's primary language...Big difference...
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Offline MaleficentOgre

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #162 on: May 12, 2005, 07:31:36 AM »
yeah, iwata had  sore throat and is speaking a language not his own.  Dennis has been speaking english his entire life and danced around the issue better than Jedi Master Kaplin.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #163 on: May 12, 2005, 07:53:48 AM »
Nintendo purchased some percentage of Silicon Knights way back, and presumably sold it again since.

Personally, I think he's being honest, but in a vague way.  In the interview he says that team sizes need to grow and games need to get bigger.  So at the same time as Nintendo is trying to produce more simple, cheap games, SK is looking to increase budgets, which doesn't appeal to Nintendo.  Silicon Knights wouldn't be content to keep making ED-budget games on the Revolution, and Nintendo is looking to keep budgets the same or reduce them.  The two don't mesh.

So yeah, I agree with those who are saying that Silicon Knights probably asked for more funding and couldn't get it.  He could have just said that, but he's trying not to burn down bridges.  "Nintendo are a bunch of tightwads and we hope they rot!" isn't a smart way to end a partnership.  For that matter, I think he still respects Nintendo a lot, but he wants to make the kind of games that Nintendo won't fund.
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Offline BlackGriffen

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #164 on: May 12, 2005, 12:39:43 PM »
So, it seems to be pretty official, then: SK wanted to expand, Nintendo balked, both parties went their separate ways. SK would, naturally, want to chalk it up to philosophical differences. Knowing how hard nosed Nintendo is, though, it's more likely that Nintendo was not satisfied enough with SK's performance to bankroll and expansion.

Possibly a little of both, even.

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Offline chaos

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #165 on: May 12, 2005, 02:27:28 PM »
Just a message to Denis if you are reading:
I watched the video, and I do think that your way of adding more content to games and whatnot will be successful for you as a company, however your reasons which you stated you left Nintendo are flawed, the fact that your games are driven by content and Nintendo's games are driven by smaller and simpler philosophy*, being the reason for the split is the equivalent of saying Nintendo doesn't make RPG's therefore RPG's don’t sell on Nintendo's consoles, which Tales of Symphonia proved differently. If anything if all there was were simple games then naturally there would be a market for complex ones, which leads me to believe it is something in addition to what you stated, which you will most likely never go into. The reason I believe this is because less than a month before the split was announced, you in an interview said when you think of Silicon Knights you also think of Nintendo you are one and the same (paraphrased), well at this stage I was well aware of Nintendo's simpler philosophy so I'd guess you would be as well, so it doesn't really make sense to me.

Also Denis some fans may feel betrayed by promising games exclusive to Nintendo beforehand, so I think it’s only fair you promise Too Human for a Nintendo console.
By the way this not not a way of trying to use guilt in a feeble attempt to gain games exclusive on my favourite consoles, (turns head whistling).

But seriously though I have enjoyed your previous games; especially Eternal Darkness which I played through three times, so although I don’t understand your reasoning for the split,(though I suppose you are in a better position to understand these decisions than me), I wish you good luck and have no doubt [aside from Canada being swallowed into the Earth after its invasion of America (don't pretend you don’t know about it)] that Silicon Knights will be a huge and well respected company in years to come.

*It should be noted that while Iwata-san said that there will be a simpler games philosophy he also said that this philosophy would not be at the expense of traditional games but instead in addition to it*
   
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #166 on: May 12, 2005, 03:18:46 PM »
damnit, the video is taking forever to load!  buffering ten percent.

Edit:  Okay I watched the video and read what you guys have said.  Why are so many of you taking this so personally.  If anyone should be taking this personal it should be SK who were told by Nintendo where they were going.  I don't know how dramatic this split really was behind doors, but obviously it is a juicy news topic, and IGN is going to get lots of hits.  I keep hope that Nintendo will persue SK and Sega for some exclusives.  I know MS would jump at the chance to unload a ton of money and marketing on any game from the two.  

Which brings me to this point.  Nintendo is the reason niether ED or MGS succeeded to sale on GameCube.  Niether game recieved even sub par advertising, as most Nintendo games get like MP and MP2.  I like simple commercials like the Pikmin 2 commercial, the original SSB commercial, and even the SMB3 for the GBA commercial.  But ED and MGS were really quality games, big games, offering much more to the expansion of the Cube userbase into the mainstreme than most of the rest of the content on the system.  The only thing worse than the below sub par push SK's titles recieved was the way Nintendo had them develop a game that had already been made rather than publishing Too Human.  MGS is a great franchise, and a great game, but a game that would not help push the console sells because most people had already played the game and/or owned it.  All it looked like was Nintendo getting a port, a great port, but a really late port.  

What is most interesting about the video is how he talks about Nintendo doing smaller games.  What does this mean?  That the REV will be like the DS, with nothing but a collection of mindless minigames?  A console of puzzle games you can find for free on the internet.  Smaller games without character, characters, story, conflict, resolution, character development, themes, analogies; I feel like puking on my shoes.  These qualities do not require the teams to grow and such, they just require more individuals with important things to say.  

At GDC didn't Iwata say that the fans, that's us, don't need to worry that Nintendo is going to stop making big games like Zelda...it seems everytime they say something they turn around and do the direct opposite.  

Also relating to the smaller games issue, I posted an interview on the REV board a while back with Sega and they talked then about next generation games for Nintendo's handsets being smaller games made by smaller companies.

But I don't like the way Dennis is talking about the industry needing to grow.  I think the gameplay needs to grow so there is room for the game design to grow.  In other words if the controls become more literal, more simple, more accessable (I'm pointing at FF11 as a prime example of where games don't need to go with controls); then the game developer could actually use the console to make a more complex game.  A game that is mature not because of adult content but because the game leaves you thinking as any piece of art should.  

I just hope Nintendo doesn't use gyration or haptics to have us cutting carrots in a Wario game.  


Recently one of my favorite developers quit making games because of the expansion that Dyack talks about.  Oddworld is nolonger making games.  They say it is because things are getting too big, the teams are getting too big, there is too much money involved, it is too hard to do something original, and publishers only want to do something safe.

This scares me.  I have always believed there was a balance between gameplay and game design.  I thought games like Zelda showed that things did not have to be black and white.  

This could be a case of Nintendo seeing something else sparkling that has caught their eye.  I still wonder why they sold RARE, SK, and Left Field.  So they could have their money to spend on their new console launch, a new company purchase (Bandai/Namco), anything else more valuabel than their Dream Team.  Our Dream Team.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #167 on: May 12, 2005, 07:10:28 PM »
small disks?
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #168 on: May 12, 2005, 07:25:20 PM »
"Why are so many of you taking this so personally."
"I feel like puking on my shoes"

Heh.
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2005, 03:26:38 PM »
I feel more betrayed by Nintendo than Silicon Knights.  Still this split was not because of the fans, it was because of these two companies.  The fact that I never got to play Too Human on my Cube is disheartening when I bought the thing in high expectation of what Silicon Knights could do with Nintendo.  

It is like they bought Silicon Knights partially to keep the competition from benefiting from their software, but found they did not know what to do with the company and its talent and thus Nintendo could not find a way to financially benefit from them so they ultimately had to let them go.  I hope SK makes some great games with Sega.  I hope some of those games come to the REV.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #170 on: May 14, 2005, 08:34:44 PM »
The fact that I never got to play Too Human on my Cube is disheartening when I bought the thing in high expectation of what Silicon Knights could do with Nintendo.

That has less to do with SK breaking up with Nintendo and all with Too Human haviung a dev cycle that competes with Duke Nukem Forever.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #171 on: May 15, 2005, 04:29:18 PM »
They shouldn't have promised Too Human, PD0, and other games that never came out.
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Offline Mario

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #172 on: May 15, 2005, 08:03:44 PM »
The back of my GC box has Kameo and Donkey Kong Racing on it.

Anyway, a quote from 1up.com
Quote

...Meanwhile, Rare may not be the only former Nintendo partisan finding a new home at Microsoft...but we won't be able to talk about this until E3 properly kicks off next week...

I thought "hmm they're talking about Silicon Knights", but then they could be talking about Factor 5 as well? What do you guys think? Of course, this could just be 1up speaking out of their ass, which they do often.

Offline ThePerm

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2005, 08:27:32 PM »
hmmm sk has more to gain than factor 5 by switching to microsoft. Factor 5 could be the king of revolution if they stick around. Why? They know the ins and outs of gamecube, and with the hardware architecture being a step up and with revolution using the same api as gamecube....then they will be the most experienced devloper working on revolution from the start. What does this mean? they have the potential to create software that can be licensed toother companies which really takes advantage of rev.  

and while i liked eternal darkness and twin snakes..they just nowhere compare graphically to the likes of Star Wars or Resident Evil 4. Now Resident Evil 4 was much later, but even the pre-rendered resident evil's had more impressive character models. Star wrs was also very impressive..and its hard to appreciate it without running through rogue 2's ship select screen.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Silicon Knights still working on games for GC
« Reply #174 on: May 15, 2005, 10:58:49 PM »
SK switched to Unreal Engine 3. At the moment that means Xenon exclusivity. They'll probably remain there since their ideas fit better with Microsoft's (dark, "mature", story over gameplay). Factor 5 has no loyality, they aren't a Nintendo partisan and they wouldn't go exclusive to Microsoft, either. They enjoy furthering the art and do that without caring about crap like exclusivity (their games are merely exclusive because noone could port that code to another platform without a full rewrite).