Topic: Rumored Star Fox/Metroid Crossover Put to Rest

[Kairon]

the could go on the strategy they had with n64, just show something amazing and everyone will want it. I love how the Wii U is super futuristic by 1992 standards.

Yeah. I loved the N64. Too bad it only sold what, 35 million units of hardware while the PS1 went on to move about 100 million? Yeah, certainly "everyone" wanted one.
 
 Hmmm... maybe the best way to think of today's Nintendo is like this:
 
 Fiscally conservative.
 Idealogically radical.
 
 When you're a Nintendo gamer you're not betting on $599 machines and silicon.
 You're gambling on ideas and surprises and heart.

[Ian Sane]

To me what really sums up the difference between yesterday's and today's Nintendo is a lack of ambition in their sequels.  You didn't get crap like Pilotwings reusing elements from Wii Sports Resort or Punch-Out having literally only ONE new opponent in the past.  NSMB is a series that has gotten flack for being unoriginal, in stark contrast to the creative Super Mario Galaxy.  The whole Wii Series is built on being INTENTIONALLY unambitious.

Part of the problem might just be timing.  Nintendo used to really make each sequel count but back then it was easier to do so because the series only had a few entries each and the hardware upgrades made a huge difference.  The NES was usually the first go.  The SNES polished the NES games that were rough.  The N64 had the advantage of a dimensional shift that meant restarting virtual every one of their existing series.

Of course that's what I consider Nintendo's golden age and to acheive that standard again they HAVE to make new IP.  Super Metroid is great because it's the logical peak of the 2D Metroid formula.  You can't make a better 2D Metroid unless you do something different with it like Fusion did (and later that other game but we'll ignore that one).  Ocarina of Time was the logical peak of the Zelda formula and that's why Twilight Princess got a lukewarm reaction.  Twists on the formula like Majora's Mask are the only direction they can go.  New IP is the easier way to maintain the high standard of Nintendo game design and it doesn't carry the risk of fan backlash like twisting up the existing franchises does.

One reason Pikmin 3 has so much hype is because the series is fresh and new.  There are still ways to improve the formula.  They have not yet reached a point where they either have to make generic Pikmin games or completely change what Pikmin is.  Playing the same bullshit again and again is not the normal Nintendo experience.  Nintendo as a game designer has typically been ambitious.  Most of their franchises have been milked too hard to continue that ambition so they have to turn to new content.

Hell, the gimmicky features of the Wii and DS partially come across as desperate attempts to recreate the industry changing impact of the switch to 3D polygons.  All of their existing franchises got a second chance by moving to 3D.  So maybe there is new life in Mario or Zelda if you use motion control or a touchscreen to play it.  Of course that didn't work and the implementation was forced but it seems like that was Nintendo's hope.  "This new control scheme will inspire us with new ideas like the N64 did!"  That's why they force it.  It's a vain attempt to avoid making a generic sequel.  Instead we get a generic sequel that plays like crap.

Xenoblade has been one of the most enjoyable Nintendo games I have played in years.  But that makes sense.  It's an ambitious game and is a new IP still trying to see what works and doesn't.

[tendoboy1984]

To me what really sums up the difference between yesterday's and today's Nintendo is a lack of ambition in their sequels.  You didn't get crap like Pilotwings reusing elements from Wii Sports Resort or Punch-Out having literally only ONE new opponent in the past.  NSMB is a series that has gotten flack for being unoriginal, in stark contrast to the creative Super Mario Galaxy.  The whole Wii Series is built on being INTENTIONALLY unambitious.

Part of the problem might just be timing.  Nintendo used to really make each sequel count but back then it was easier to do so because the series only had a few entries each and the hardware upgrades made a huge difference.  The NES was usually the first go.  The SNES polished the NES games that were rough.  The N64 had the advantage of a dimensional shift that meant restarting virtual every one of their existing series.

Of course that's what I consider Nintendo's golden age and to acheive that standard again they HAVE to make new IP.  Super Metroid is great because it's the logical peak of the 2D Metroid formula.  You can't make a better 2D Metroid unless you do something different with it like Fusion did (and later that other game but we'll ignore that one).  Ocarina of Time was the logical peak of the Zelda formula and that's why Twilight Princess got a lukewarm reaction.  Twists on the formula like Majora's Mask are the only direction they can go.  New IP is the easier way to maintain the high standard of Nintendo game design and it doesn't carry the risk of fan backlash like twisting up the existing franchises does.

One reason Pikmin 3 has so much hype is because the series is fresh and new.  There are still ways to improve the formula.  They have not yet reached a point where they either have to make generic Pikmin games or completely change what Pikmin is.  Playing the same bullshit again and again is not the normal Nintendo experience.  Nintendo as a game designer has typically been ambitious.  Most of their franchises have been milked too hard to continue that ambition so they have to turn to new content.

Hell, the gimmicky features of the Wii and DS partially come across as desperate attempts to recreate the industry changing impact of the switch to 3D polygons.  All of their existing franchises got a second chance by moving to 3D.  So maybe there is new life in Mario or Zelda if you use motion control or a touchscreen to play it.  Of course that didn't work and the implementation was forced but it seems like that was Nintendo's hope.  "This new control scheme will inspire us with new ideas like the N64 did!"  That's why they force it.  It's a vain attempt to avoid making a generic sequel.  Instead we get a generic sequel that plays like crap.

Xenoblade has been one of the most enjoyable Nintendo games I have played in years.  But that makes sense.  It's an ambitious game and is a new IP still trying to see what works and doesn't.

Wii Sports was very ambitious and innovative because it introduced new types of gameplay and made motion controls mainstream. If Wii Sports was a flop, Microsoft and Sony wouldn't have had a reason to "copy" Nintendo.

[Kairon]

That's the best argument for new IPs I've heard yet! "Because your past games were perfect and can't be beat, so don't even try."

... I want them to make a Wii Music 2. That's a new IP with HUGE room for improvement!

[NWR_insanolord]

Wii Sports was innovative and successful, but I wouldn't call it ambitious. Granted, it was a glorified set of tech demos and was included free with the system, so I think it's easy to forgive that.

[Kairon]

I would call it ambitious given that virtually nothing like it ever existed before it appeared. Also, that it was sorta perfect at demonstrating a never-before-seen control scheme. For Wii Sports to be what it was, Nintendo had to stick the landing with unprecedented input methods and an unprecedented target audience on their first attempt.

[Adrock]

NSMB is a series that has gotten flack for being unoriginal, in stark contrast to the creative Super Mario Galaxy.

This is where you're losing me. Both of those games are Mario games. So... then, ambition isn't inherently tied to newness. One team made a Mario game that was unoriginal yet another team made a Mario game that was creative. He's the same Mario, red hat, blue overalls, and mustache. Ambition is limited by a development team's willingness to be ambitious. Replace Mario in those games to an arbitrary new character, call it something else yet you still have the same level of creativity. You're blaming the creation; I'm blaming the creator.

Of course that's what I consider Nintendo's golden age and to acheive that standard again they HAVE to make new IP.  Super Metroid is great because it's the logical peak of the 2D Metroid formula.  You can't make a better 2D Metroid unless you do something different with it like Fusion did (and later that other game but we'll ignore that one).  Ocarina of Time was the logical peak of the Zelda formula and that's why Twilight Princess got a lukewarm reaction.  Twists on the formula like Majora's Mask are the only direction they can go.  New IP is the easier way to maintain the high standard of Nintendo game design and it doesn't carry the risk of fan backlash like twisting up the existing franchises does.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes...

How are you coming to these conclusions? Of course some developer can make a better Metroid game than Super Metroid. The IP isn't holding itself back. Creativity or the absence of it is. I don't see the connection between ambition and age. You can be ambitious with something new and you can be ambitious with something old. Find someone who's passionate about the material and they'll make you a great product.

And how do you figure that Twilight Princess got a lukewarm reception? In general? How do you plan to prove that? From the media? Pretty sure that's wrong. From you? Me? I didn't like the last 25% of the game, but I'm fairly confident that I'm in the minority of that belief. I didn't like Skyward Sword overall. Probably in the minority thewre too. Again, not for you ≠ bad.

[Chozo Ghost]

I would call it ambitious given that virtually nothing like it ever existed before it appeared.

I wouldn't say that. A collection of mini sports games has been done many times over the years, such as this one for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_games

Wii Sports was only original in that it had motion controls, but if you take that away its pretty much all been done before many times.

[Sarail]

the could go on the strategy they had with n64, just show something amazing and everyone will want it. I love how the Wii U is super futuristic by 1992 standards.

Yeah. I loved the N64. Too bad it only sold what, 35 million units of hardware while the PS1 went on to move about 100 million? Yeah, certainly "everyone" wanted one.
 
 Hmmm... maybe the best way to think of today's Nintendo is like this:
 
 Fiscally conservative.
 Idealogically radical.
 
 When you're a Nintendo gamer you're not betting on $599 machines and silicon.
 You're gambling on ideas and surprises and heart.

Dangit, Kairon. I can only put so many of your quotes in my sig. Geez.

[Kairon]

Wii Sports was only original in that it had motion controls, but if you take that away its pretty much all been done before many times.

Yeah, I was referring to the title's use of motion controls.

Dangit, Kairon. I can only put so many of your quotes in my sig. Geez.

Aww shucks, Rachtman. My ego will feast on this comment for the next 12 hours or so.

[Chocobo_Rider]

When you're a Nintendo gamer you're not betting on $599 machines and silicon.
You're gambling on ideas and surprises and heart.

Yea.  I'm a fan of this.

Is NWR looking for more t-shirts to print up? =P

[Mop it up]

Kairon is indeed very quotable for his concise insights.

However, Wii Sports isn't the first motion controlled sports game, as something called the XavixPORT offered the same sports with motion controls and was released in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XaviXPort_gaming_console

Coincidentally, it is also the last home system to use cartridges, and not the Nintendo 64.

[Chozo Ghost]

Kairon is indeed very quotable for his concise insights.

However, Wii Sports isn't the first motion controlled sports game, as something called the XavixPORT offered the same sports with motion controls and was released in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XaviXPort_gaming_console

Coincidentally, it is also the last home system to use cartridges, and not the Nintendo 64.

Considering no one ever heard of it does it really even count? Its like that deal where a tree falls in the woods and no one is around.

[Kairon]

However, Wii Sports isn't the first motion controlled sports game, as something called the XavixPORT offered the same sports with motion controls and was released in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XaviXPort_gaming_console

Coincidentally, it is also the last home system to use cartridges, and not the Nintendo 64.

@_@

Dear me. Dear god. Wow! I checked out a video of their tennis game, and the basic idea is there. I still have to commend Nintendo's ability to really add their gameplay magic (and Miis) and then take it mass market, but it's pretty awesome to learn of this system's existence!

[MegaByte]

It's the kind of stuff you'd see at E3 back when Kentia Hall was populated.

[Kairon]

It's the kind of stuff you'd see at E3 back when Kentia Hall was populated.

Hmmm... makes you wonder when we'll see mass-market videogames controlled with your MIND!!!

[UncleBob]

Back on the "No new IPs"/no risks topic... Endless Ocean?

[MegaByte]

Disaster 2: Pride and Prejudice and Zombies

[tendoboy1984]

Kairon is indeed very quotable for his concise insights.

However, Wii Sports isn't the first motion controlled sports game, as something called the XavixPORT offered the same sports with motion controls and was released in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XaviXPort_gaming_console

Coincidentally, it is also the last home system to use cartridges, and not the Nintendo 64.

Yeah no. Xavix = Some obscure toy company from Thailand that no one has ever heard of.

And technically the FC Twin is the last home system to use cartridges. 

Nintendo made motion controlled gaming popular, and they were the first mainstream company to do it.

[TJ Spyke]

Yeah, the FC Twin doesn't count because it's just a famiclone that only plays NES and SNES games (no original games).

[tendoboy1984]

Yeah, the FC Twin doesn't count because it's just a famiclone that only plays NES and SNES games (no original games).

I know that. I was being sarcastic, hence the smiley face.

[Mataata]

Someone forgot to close a "bold" tag.

[Meh-troid]

Honestly, a Metroid/Starfox crossover could work. Samus could track a Space Pirate signal to the Lylat System and find a base they have created amongst the stars. Fox, curious, may also investigate and they decide to team up. The gameplay can have similar features to both games. Adventure, discovery and gadgets from Metroid and Flying around space and other planets from Starfox.