Topic: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million

[oohhboy]

This ruling would have an effect on Sony's plan now and future. Unless they find a third way to vibrate the controller they would have to remove the outright unless they liscence it from somebody. Somebody being Immersion or Nintendo.

The ruling's most immediate impact would be apparent once it is enforced. PS2/PSX sales would be nailed to the floor at zero save second hand and black market in the US.

If the sales ban is enforced, it would produce some really funky results in the sales charts. Like a "What if senario" with Nintendo Vs MS only world. it would make for an interesting economic study.

About that 60 Billion dollar debt. Interest. At 5% non-compounding comes in at 3 Billion dollars a year. Thats 3 billion dollars thrown out the window every year.  

[Ian Sane]

There are third party titles listed.  How can they rule that a third party game can't be sold anymore?  The third party just makes the game for the console specs.  It's not like they have anything to do with Sony using someone else's patent.

[MaleficentOgre]

As of right now this stuff is allowed to sell, but that'll stop pretty soon.

[Hostile Creation]

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There are third party titles listed. How can they rule that a third party game can't be sold anymore? The third party just makes the game for the console specs. It's not like they have anything to do with Sony using someone else's patent.

Well, the game utilized the illegal technology.  The games would be allowed on the other systems easily, but until Sony changes the technology used in the controllers (or win the lawsuit, whatever) they're still responsible for the same crime, I imagine.

[Don'tHate742]

Ian Sane -- It's like arresting the theif culprit and the driver of the gateway car.

[Pale]

Maybe if the get away driver didn't know he was escorting a thief...

[BlackNMild2k1]

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation

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Well, the game utilized the illegal technology.  The games would be allowed on the other systems easily, but until Sony changes the technology used in the controllers (or win the lawsuit, whatever) they're still responsible for the same crime, I imagine.

Actually I believe this is the second time Sony has lost this lawsuit. I think they first lost in Oct. '04 and was fined 80something million, appealed and now its 90.7 mil. I saw a link somewhere with the exact info but I'm too lazy to look it up

EDIT:

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In July, 2003, Microsoft settled with Immersion for $26 million, getting a stake in the company at the same time. Sony has decided to instead fight the lawsuit and back in September of 2004 the courts decided in favor of Immersion and ordered Sony to pay $82 million for the infringement. The new figure of $90.7 million includes $8.7 million of interest.

In its defense, Sony has argued that the technology being used in the Dual Shock is both simple and is taken from prior art that was around from before Immersion's patents. It has also countered that several of the uses have come from in-house development. So far it is looking like these arguments are falling on deaf ears and that as Sony will likely appeal to a higher court this case will take even longer to settle itself.

[Hostile Creation]

"Maybe if the get away driver didn't know he was escorting a thief... "

Generally doesn't matter.  You're supposed to know what you're doing, especially when it comes to stuff like patents.  You can't just make stuff and hope there's nothing wrong with it, you're supposed to check it out.

[KDR_11k]

That's why companies have huge armies of patent lawyers these days.

[couchmonkey]

I'm not a huge fan of patent and copyright mongering but this seems like a pretty fair case, and I sure don't mind seeing Sony squirm!

[nemo_83]

This and the whole sixty billion dollar debt thing are making Sony fanboys very mean right now.  So just a warning to anyone who comes in contact with some on other sites, make them feel the hurt, rub some salt in their wounds and don't bother listening to the names they will call you for doing it.  I love this.  

[ruby_onix]

GameSpot has an interview with Immersion's president, Victor Viegas.

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Victor Viegas: On September 21, 2004, the jury reached a meaningful verdict, a unanimous verdict. They found that 16 claims of two patents were both infringed and valid, and they awarded us damages of $82 million. The judge's decision [this week] was consistent with the jury's findings, and she added to that interest of $8.7 million, for a total award of $90.7 million.

GS: You sound pleased.

VV: We're happy that she eliminated or dismissed a number of defenses and arguments made by Sony. I wouldn't call it a victory. [The decision] is still subject to appeals, number one. Number two, it's a judgment based on a verdict of $82 million, which is a 1.37 percent royalty for infringing products that were sold. Our typical license is approximately 5 percent of the wholesale selling price.

GS: Sony got quite a bargain in the decision.

VV: That's right. It will be hard to call it a real victory because it's a lower royalty rate than we would be happy with.

So that $8.7 million is just interest on the $82 million that Immersion won last time, and Sony still hasn't paid. Immersion probably has another lawsuit in them covering the stuff Sony has kept on making, until... whenever they stop.

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GS: Had you pitched Sony in terms of them incorporating your technology prior to the Feb. '02 lawsuit?

VV: Oh, yeah. We've talked about not only the technology they're currently using that infringes our patents, but we've talked about new technology that includes better, more precise effects. We have technology that would work on the wireless platform, so wireless controllers with high fidelity effects are available. We have lots of new technology above and beyond that which they're currently using.

GS: Any crossover into the PSP camp here?

VV: I can't honestly say that we've talked about the wireless platform, the PSP, but we've shown them demonstrations of wireless controllers that could clearly work on any PlayStation embodiment. And we also have shown them technology that is about to be launched by Samsung in the cell phone market. That's the same technology that could easily be incorporated in a handheld gaming device.

I think GameSpot and Immersion both forgot that the PSP is disc-based.

[Djunknown]

Yeah I read that article too. Mr.Viegas makes some good points, Sony should really just settle the matter. Do they honestly think they'll going to miracoulousy reverse the decision after adding some interest? Sony must think they're untouchable. Now they're acting just like some other company we know who's still paying for their arrogance to this day...

Sony hasn't even issued a statement, much less an interview. They're not going to get a lot of sympathy save for Sony Fanboys.  They should just grit their teeth and cut their losses, it seems that there's too much to lose.  Retailers and 3rd parties may not be too happy when controllers and software are banned from the shelves. Its a PR nightmare as it is for Sony.

I wonder if this fallout will spill over to the PS3...

[Grant10k]

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Originally posted by: Djunknown
. Now they're acting just like some other company we know who's still paying for their arrogance to this day...

I'd hate to sound like i'm not in the loop but uh....who we talkin' about here?

[Bill Aurion]

I'd assume he means Ninty back when they were tyrants over 3rd parties way back in the day....(Though I don't think that has anything to do with how they are treated today)

[Grant10k]

I am now in the loop

[Djunknown]

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I'd assume he means Ninty back when they were tyrants over 3rd parties way back in the day....(Though I don't think that has anything to do with how they are treated today)

And the Cookie goes to Bill

*waits for the next bit of info*

[BlackNMild2k1]

Food for thought.........

Knowing that Immersion sued MS & Sony back in 2002, but MS settled for 26million including a 10% stake in Immersion, but Sony decided to fight it racking up enormous amounts of royalty infringement penalties (yet still paying less than if they had actually liscensed the tech).  Is it possible that MS has been working behind the scenes for years now w/ their really high payed lawers, trying to help the now MS backed Immersion, to stick it Sony as hard as possible, therefore making MS money on all Sony PS related controllers and games?

So in other words wouldn't it be MS that spent their $26mil wisely, to partially collect on almost $330mil from Sony?
I mean they spend $26million now ($20mil settlement + $6mil for investment)making them share holders, and they aren't gonna charge themselves liscensing fees, are they? Then when all is said and done they would have made atleast 33mil from Sony and also what ever Logitech is paying.

Does that sound about right?  

[PaLaDiN]

"And the Cookie goes to Bill"

How dare you infringe upon my authority! It is I who am the SuperCookieExpert, and you would do well to never forget it. No cookie for you... yea, though you live as piously as no man before you, you would get no cookie. Chew on that for a while... oh, that's right, you can't.

I wonder how this lawsuit affects Whitefusion's controller.

[ruby_onix]

Spong had some questions for Victor Viegas.

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There were two key issues we wanted outlining, not least the fact that Nintendo has never been mentioned in the case(s) Immersion Corp brought against Sony and Microsoft. Given that Nintendo executives have stated, on the record in the public domain for years that rumble functionality was their innovation, an innovation subsequently plagiarised by both Sony and Microsoft, it seems strange that they were never implicated in any case.

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“We never analysed Nintendo products.” Is the more-than surprising answer offered. “There is, I believe, a difference in the technologies used but we never investigated those of Nintendo.”

Spong basically sees this as an anti-Sony conspiricy on the part of Microsoft. Suggesting that the only reason Immersion's even going after Sony in the first place is because of Microsoft's influence (since they're leaving Nintendo alone).

Victor doesn't seem to doubt that Microsoft may have had "ulterior motives" in deciding to support Immersion.

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It seems beyond the realms of possibility that Microsoft didn’t have this roadmap into the very fabric of the PlayStation business model mapped-out from the start. When this was put to Viegas he simply said, “I cannot argue with the logic in what you say. Microsoft took full advantage of the opportunity offered to it and was fair in its dealings with us throughout.”

[Djunknown]

"How dare you infringe upon my authority!"

Ok, I'll give bill a Pizza then. Happy?

As usual, SPoNG loves to stir the proverbial pot. Its nice theory,  but why not take the lawsuit a step further, according to that logic? Take their high priced, lawyers, go to Japan, and get some mad Yen. While they're add it, go to the EU and try to ban controllers there, and count those Euros? Or is that next for the puppeteer that is MS?  SPonG is going to need more than circumstantial evidence for that theory to hold up. Send in the moles!

[Bill Aurion]

A...pizza?  WHAT!? *shakes fist at Paladin*

Meanwhile, Spong is hilarious...99% of the angst in the industry is pointed at Nintendo, but one little thing could be speculated for anti-Sony conspiracies and then it's defense time...Fantastic...