Topic: Another shitty tendoboy thread

[tendoboy1984]

It's amazing how the Japanese have such high standards with animation and cartoons. You don't see this level of craftsmanship with American / Western cartoons anymore.

[TJ Spyke]

You don't see this level of craftsmanship with American / Western cartoons anymore.

That is just not true, plain and simple. I and others have pointed this out to you before.

[tendoboy1984]

You don't see this level of craftsmanship with American / Western cartoons anymore.

That is just not true, plain and simple. I and others have pointed this out to you before.

I'm talking about the kinds of cartoons you see on Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network.

[TJ Spyke]

Even some of those are good. You have bad Japanese cartoons (lots of them actually), and good western cartoons. It's not fair to be hyperbolic.

[Lithium]

You don't see this level of craftsmanship with American / Western cartoons anymore.

That is just not true, plain and simple. I and others have pointed this out to you before.

I'm talking about the kinds of cartoons you see on Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network.

legend of korra?
Also I watch plenty of anime and i've seen some shows with pretty bad animation, so its not just the west.

[tendoboy1984]

You don't see this level of craftsmanship with American / Western cartoons anymore.

That is just not true, plain and simple. I and others have pointed this out to you before.

I'm talking about the kinds of cartoons you see on Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network.

legend of korra?
Also I watch plenty of anime and i've seen some shows with pretty bad animation, so its not just the west.

The Avatar and Korra cartoons are inspired by anime, so they strive for high artistic quality. I was referring to cartoons with a more "American" style like Chowder, SpongeBob, Fairly Oddparents, Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack, Regular Show, Adventure Time, etc. Ugly character designs, flat backgrounds, poor attention to detail, etc.


I know the creators of those cartoons have a specific art style preference, but seeing these cartoons next to Japanese anime like Dragon Ball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Full Metal Alchemist, Trinity Blood, Samurai Champloo, etc. is very jarring. There is a huge quality difference.

[broodwars]

The Avatar and Korra cartoons are inspired by anime, so they strive for high artistic quality. I was referring to cartoons with a more "American" style like Chowder, SpongeBob, Fairly Oddparents, Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack, Regular Show, Adventure Time, etc. Ugly character designs, flat backgrounds, poor attention to detail, etc.

I know the creators of those cartoons have a specific art style preference, but seeing these cartoons next to Japanese anime like Dragon Ball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Full Metal Alchemist, Trinity Blood, Samurai Champloo, etc. is very jarring. There is a huge quality difference.

And you also have shows like the DC Animated Universe (Batman TAS, Superman, Justice League, etc.), Gargoyles, Spectacular Spider-Man, etc. that are clearly "not anime" in their artistic trappings, yet are American in origin (and yes, I know there were Japanese studios like TMS that worked on the DC Animated Universe shows. But the character designs were American and the show was directed by Americans).

There's plenty of poorly-animated **** in both America and Japan, and there's plenty of high-quality stuff in both.  Japan is hardly the bastion of high art that the rest of the world can only aspire towards, and America is likewise hardly only capable of great work when it emulates the Japanese.

[ShyGuy]

I like tendoboy's threads.

[Shaymin]

To the person who fixed the thread title:
Gracias.

[tendoboy1984]

The Avatar and Korra cartoons are inspired by anime, so they strive for high artistic quality. I was referring to cartoons with a more "American" style like Chowder, SpongeBob, Fairly Oddparents, Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack, Regular Show, Adventure Time, etc. Ugly character designs, flat backgrounds, poor attention to detail, etc.

I know the creators of those cartoons have a specific art style preference, but seeing these cartoons next to Japanese anime like Dragon Ball Z, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Full Metal Alchemist, Trinity Blood, Samurai Champloo, etc. is very jarring. There is a huge quality difference.

And you also have shows like the DC Animated Universe (Batman TAS, Superman, Justice League, etc.), Gargoyles, Spectacular Spider-Man, etc. that are clearly "not anime" in their artistic trappings, yet are American in origin (and yes, I know there were Japanese studios like TMS that worked on the DC Animated Universe shows. But the character designs were American and the show was directed by Americans).

There's plenty of poorly-animated **** in both America and Japan, and there's plenty of high-quality stuff in both.  Japan is hardly the bastion of high art that the rest of the world can only aspire towards, and America is likewise hardly only capable of great work when it emulates the Japanese.

"American in origin", meaning the show's concept and creation was done by Americans. Is that what you meant?

Why do American studios constantly outsource animation overseas, but Japanese studios do most of their work in-house? Back in the old days of animation (1950's and prior), American cartoons were made by American animators. Why can't it be like that today? If the Japanese can animate their own cartoons (anime) in-house, then what's preventing Americans studios from doing it?

[Lithium]

thank you mods for changing the thread title, can we make it an automatic thing?

[tendoboy1984]

Hooray for mods... -_-

[broodwars]

"American in origin", meaning the show's concept and creation was done by Americans. Is that what you meant?

The concept, the character designs, the storyboards, often the music, etc. are generally done in America, yes.

Why do American studios constantly outsource animation overseas, but Japanese studios do most of their work in-house? Back in the old days of animation (1950's and prior), American cartoons were made by American animators. Why can't it be like that today? If the Japanese can animate their own cartoons (anime) in-house, then what's preventing Americans studios from doing it?

Because Americans want something that Japanese culture has managed to stamp out: a decent wage.  It's well-known just how badly the Japanese treat their animators, often paying them absurdly low wages while working extremely long hours with very tight deadlines and little upward momentum within the company.  American companies tend to outsource their animation because Asian companies (Taiwan, Japan, etc.) tend to turn out acceptable work for a substantially cheaper cost, and meanwhile any labor issues stay in the outsourced country.

You want more animation made in America? Pass legislation outlawing labor unions for Animators in the United States, but I doubt you want that.

[tendoboy1984]

"American in origin", meaning the show's concept and creation was done by Americans. Is that what you meant?

The concept, the character designs, the storyboards, often the music, etc. are generally done in America, yes.

Why do American studios constantly outsource animation overseas, but Japanese studios do most of their work in-house? Back in the old days of animation (1950's and prior), American cartoons were made by American animators. Why can't it be like that today? If the Japanese can animate their own cartoons (anime) in-house, then what's preventing Americans studios from doing it?

Because Americans want something that Japanese culture has managed to stamp out: a decent wage.  It's well-known just how badly the Japanese treat their animators, often paying them absurdly low wages while working extremely long hours with very tight deadlines and little upward momentum within the company.  American companies tend to outsource their animation because Asian companies (Taiwan, Japan, etc.) tend to turn out acceptable work for a substantially cheaper cost, and meanwhile any labor issues stay in the outsourced country.

You want more animation made in America? Pass legislation outlawing labor unions for Animators in the United States, but I doubt you want that.

But the problem you described pertains to why America outsources animation, not why the Japanese keep their own animation in-house. And if the problem is wages, then American companies should pay their animators more. Simple as that.


America is full of talented cartoonists and animators, many of whom are working on CG movies and video games, so why aren't American cartoons treated with the same dignity?

[broodwars]

But the problem you described pertains to why America outsources animation, not why the Japanese keep their own animation in-house. And if the problem is wages, then American companies should pay their animators more. Simple as that.

What part of "Japanese culture is structured in a way where they barely have to pay their animators" is so hard to understand?  If it's cheapest to make it in-house in Japan where labor is cheap, they do.  They also outsource their less-glamorous work to Korean, etc. studios as well like DR Movie where their work is cheap as well (and certainly looks it).

America is full of talented cartoonists and animators, many of whom are working on CG movies and video games, so why aren't American cartoons treated with the same dignity?

Because the cheap crap being made these days sells, whether it's cheap American animation or cheap foreign animation.  And that's nothing new: cheap crap like Transformers, GI Joe, Voltron, etc. sold well in my childhood as well.  And the companies willing to pay for higher quality work do, which is why we have companies like Pixar.  Even Pixar can turn out mediocre work like Brave, though.

[tendoboy1984]

[size=78%]Because the cheap crap being made these days sells, whether it's cheap American animation or cheap foreign animation.  And that's nothing new: cheap crap like Transformers, GI Joe, Voltron, etc. sold well in my childhood as well.  And the companies willing to pay for higher quality work [/size][size=78%]do[/size][size=78%], which is why we have companies like Pixar.  Even Pixar can turn out mediocre work like Brave, though.[/size]

See that's the problem. Animated movies strive for high standards and good quality animation, but most American cartoons aren't held to the same standards. It's a shame, really. Animation is supposed to be an art form, so it should be treated as such, regardless of how it's made.


People don't expect high quality with TV cartoons, but movies are the exact opposite. Why can't we just have high-quality entertainment all around? Why must there be this big divide between TV cartoons and animated movies?

[Kairon]

What about My Little Pony? (I'm totally serious)

[tendoboy1984]

What about My Little Pony? (I'm totally serious)

Shows like that, Ren and Stimpy (the first 2 seasons), Family Guy, American Dad, Fosters Home For Imaginary Friends, Misadventures of Flapjack, etc. are more creator driven, meaning the creator has greater control over how the show is produced.

[toddra]

I disagree entirely, I never cared for anime as an artistic style so it looks rather rushed to me. I see a lot of high quality American cartoons all the time. I am not going to go down the list because it looks like others have already done that. What I will add is that go back to the so-called golden age, and their animation sucked. Those are classic cartoons we hold in high regard but seriously feature length full budget animated films have always had a higher standard than cheap, low budget television crap. The problem is not is animation an art form or who pays more or whatever, the problem is animation is much more demanding than something like comic books, for instance. Even the best animators get tired of drawing essentially the same thing over and over, and to that end isn't most animation these days all done on a computer anyways?

[BeautifulShy]

I think I know where tendoboy was going with this thread.For example it mainly has to do with the style of animation one uses for the show.Its a personal preference thing. Nothing wrong with that. I personally love watching anime and cartoons a lot and I do have to agree with Tendoboy that there isn't that many good shows that have an "American" style or are made somewhere other then Japan. There is exceptions but not that many sadly. It isn't like it was in the 80's where American's cartoons were the focal point for everyone. Probably the block called Toonami during the early 2000 is when it first started changing I am guessing.

[toddra]

Cards on the table, to be fair I don't keep up with current cartoons, haven't since about the time Fairly Odd Parents came out.  By that time I was already feeling like I was getting too old for cartoons. My nephew likes some show about two kid geniuses whose sister is always trying to catch them in the act, he loves it to death but it annoys me to no end. I keep trying to get him into the stuff from my generation, and oddly enough the only old show he likes is Challenge of the Gobots, he like's Transformers okay but prefers Beast Wars and newer stuff.

[BeautifulShy]

Yeah that show that your nephew likes sounds like Phineas and Ferb. I suggest maybe see what he likes from now a days and see if there is a show that is similar that you liked to it back then that he may like. That way it is more smoother.

[Oblivion]

Teen Titans, Young Justice, Sym-Biotic Titan, Avatar: the Last Airbender, and Avatar: the Legend of Korra were the only reason I ever watched cartoons.

[toddra]

Yeah that show that your nephew likes sounds like Phineas and Ferb. I suggest maybe see what he likes from now a days and see if there is a show that is similar that you liked to it back then that he may like. That way it is more smoother.

Unfortunately it's not a problem now, his parents got a divorce and moved back to idaho so I don't get to see the little guy anymore. It was just odd to me how he liked Gobots but not Transformers then I sat through an episode of Transformers Animated and it made sense, that franchise has really gone down hill.

[broodwars]

Yeah that show that your nephew likes sounds like Phineas and Ferb. I suggest maybe see what he likes from now a days and see if there is a show that is similar that you liked to it back then that he may like. That way it is more smoother.

Unfortunately it's not a problem now, his parents got a divorce and moved back to idaho so I don't get to see the little guy anymore. It was just odd to me how he liked Gobots but not Transformers then I sat through an episode of Transformers Animated and it made sense, that franchise has really gone down hill.

Watch Transformers Prime and tell me that it's gone downhill, and from what I've heard of Transformers Animated it improves a lot over the course of the show. I couldn't get into it, but I've heard it's far from a bad show.