Topic: Piracy

[joeamis]

since the xenosaga 2 thread was closed, with no directly stated reasoning I take it, it was from what started between someone bashing another person and the other telling him never to speak to him, not from our piracy discussion and so here's my response KDR's last post:

KDR states: "You know the IDSA is most likely a group of suit terrorists that would like you to not know/give up your rights for their profit?"
- ok, this is just absurd, likening them to terrorists in suits.

KDR states: "Example: You bought a GC game which came without manual (let's say, used.). Now, the disk contains no info about any licenses, neither does the packaging. That means, you are not aware that there are any contracts involved and probably even own the copy. In case of Metroid Prime (didn't check the other ones) even the manual says nothing about licenses..."
-in the Metroid Prime manual it states: All Rights, including the copyrights of game, scenario, music, and program, reserved by Nintendo.  it also states: This Nintendo game is not designed for use with any unauthorized copying device or any unlicensed accessory.
(it doesn't matter if you buy it used with no manual, and you don't know about the laws, THEY STILL APPLY) from what you're saying it's like if i didn't know that a stop sign meant to stop then it doesn't apply to me.

KDR states: That licensed for PS2 probably means they acquired a license from Sony to use the PS2 platform, just as you see "Licensed by Nintendo" on GBA games.
- wrong, sony has that message on first party games..............

KDR states: Either way, as long as you didn't know you're commiting a crime, the courts will probably let you go free.
- NO CHANCE, this never applies to any law.  If you commit a crime, without knowing it's against the law, you're still charged for the crime.  no if, ands, or buts.  Bar none.

Finally, the most important point i stated earlier in greyninjas case.  A form of piracy doesn't always have to go against the current laws in place.  Just because it is not "illegal" does not mean it's not piracy.
and finally again: Nintendo spokeswoman Beth Llewelyn had this to say about N64 emulators:
"It promotes continued piracy."  

[HiTmaN]

Piracy rocks, I support piracy 100% wooooooooo go piracy ya! Anyway because the thread got closed because someone was acting like they were 5, what exactly is Xenosaga?

Back to piracy, if a multimillion dollar company is charing $50-$100 for software I'm definetly not buying it. Why buy something when you can get it FREE? Just think about that. You burn cd's, you download songs, your pirating and simple as that.

[mouse_clicker]

To me, big corporations complaining about piracy is like Bill Gates complaining that he lost a $100 bill. :\

[joeamis]

piracy is bad because it destroys profit for games and game development.  if say Square released Final Fantasy 12 and somehow it became pirated and noone bought the game because they could get it free, then Square could easily lose well over 100 million dollars, on 1 game!

cost to develop FF 12= 40 million dollars. (probably costs more)
(FF 7 released in 1997, which means it was developed all the way back in 1995-1997 and it cost $40 million to make)
cost to develop and ship out 3 million copies= 90 million (that's if it cost 30 bucks a game to develop and ship out, it probably cost more, i dont think companies make 20 profit on every game)

40 million + 90 million= 130 million dollars lost - 3 million (if 100,000 copies of FF12 sold before the pirated version came out)= 127 million dollars lost

(and that's to say if someone pirated the game early, if the pirated version came out later then they will have sold some more of those games yes, but they would lose even more money on all the additional copies shipped that didn't sell)

now do you understand why it's bad?  sure that's a worse case scenario but still Nintendo estimated that it lost around $650 million in sales last year because of piracy, and the entire industry might have lost over $3 billion.

do you realize that with 650 million more dollars how many more employees, development teams, and games Nintendo could have made?  Which in turn would've created even more profit for them?
in your personal case, this could've resulted in you getting Mario Kart DD a year earlier because they could've had twice as many people working on it...

[Bill Aurion]

*sigh*

Everyone who pirates thinks everytime they burn a cd it's only a drop in the bucket.  But they're wrong.  Think about it way; what if you made an entertainment product and you lost more than a quarter of your potential profit.  Wouldn't you be pretty pissed?  What I'm afraid is going to happen is that piracy will become so widespread that the companies that produce these forms of electronic entertainment will kick the bucket.  Then there won't be any games or music to pirate.  If you can't afford to get the software, then get a damn job!  

[mouse_clicker]

Look at how much money the entertainment industry makes, though- I know piracy is morally wrong, but piracy isn't anywhere NEAR as big a problem as the industry would lead you to believe. Look at how prevalent piracy was on the Playstation and then explain to me why it was still the best selling console of all time, and why games for it sold millions upon millions of copies. I undestand that piracy is something that shouldn't exist, and there IS no justification of illegally copying a CD or game, but I'm tired of hearing the entertainment industry act as if they're going to go broke just because piracy exists. Game sales and console sales are higher than they've ever been, CD sales are way up- the entertainment industry is hear to stay and no one's going to lose their job because people pirate things. If you don't believe me, look at how much the videogame industry made last year and than look at the estimated loss due to piracy, which is inflated because it's based on the assumption the people that did pirate would have bought the game had hey not copied it- you'll that the latter is a VERY small portion of the former.

And don't anyone try to throw me that BS that the Dreamcast died because of piracy- a combination of Sony's hype for the PS2 and Sega's plethora of niche titles is what killed the Dreamcast, not me or you ripping a game off a friend (which I actually never did).

[Bill Aurion]

I would also just like to add that it's also unfair that a majority of the populace pays for these products, while others "get it for free."  I just can't see how people can live with that on their conscience.

[joeamis]

okay so the videogame industry made $9.4 billion last year.
$3 billion in piracy.  That means the videogame industry lost
32% of it's total revenue to piracy.  Ok it's really not a problem.....

note my sarcasm?

[mouse_clicker]

Where'd you get your numbers, Joe- I seem to remember it being MUCH lower than that.  I find it hard to believe the industry's not reeling into a depression if the money lost due of piracy was really a fourth. And it's also highly inflated as well, considering the fact that the reason most people DO pirate is because they don't want to foot the bill for a legitimate copy.

[joeamis]

my numbers for piracy last year come straight from Nintendo's mouth.
i didn't save the site where i found it, and it took alot of searching.
if i come up on it again, i'll provide the site.

the industry won't go in a depression from money that's not made,
only if they go in debt will it =depression.

[Termin8Anakin]

I only burn CDs when I can't get them anywhere else.
Game soundtracks aren't sold here, so I had to get them burnt to listen to them. I have Cds of MArio, Zelda, F-Zero X and Perfect Dark. The most recent soundtrack I got was Spirited Away. It's not a game, but it was a limited release movie here in Sydney. It was only shown in one or two cinemas. So as you'd expect, the soundtrack wasn't sold here. I looked on Ebay (for which my cousin just joined), and the cheapest price I could find was AUS$40. That's around US$60. Ludicrous. I looked at anime import sites, and the cost again was high. So, I burnt it. But I wanted the actual copy so much, i even printed out the front, back and inside covers and stuck them in the CD to make it LOOK authentic. You can see them here:
My Spirited Away CD covers

I also only burn programs when they cost in the thousands.
I want to get started in 3D animation. Maya and 3D Studio Max are the programs i need to learn, since they are used in the industry. The proper way to get them is to buy them, but they cost in the thousands each. So how does an average joe like me get them? The only way is to get them burnt.
I use have Windows 98 SE, which is an official CD. It only cost around 100 dollars, but it was worth it.

I try not to burn CDs, but if I must, then I will. With games, I don't burn games, nor do I have any games that are burnt. Check my shelves. None. Nintendo games for me are special that I don't wanna burn them. But with Sony and Microsoft? I don't care. Let piracy hurt them. They put in the features that allow pirates to pirate their games (like Xbox's HDD), that's their bad luck.

[Tman]

you can't state piracy figures as "revenue lost" because that assumes that 100% of the pirates would have purchased a given product at full MSRP, a scenario that is at best wishfull thinking. Did AliasWavefront lose 7000 dollars from my ripped copy of "Maya Unlimited™ 5"? No, because i would have never bought it. Same goes for 50$ games.  

[Termin8Anakin]

well what they're saying is that they are losing money from all the possible sales that'll have if people bought the games.
AS far as we're concerned, if a studio doesn't get back the money they spent to make the game, that's a loss. So, not selling a game is a loss.
Piracy is also a loss, but moreso because people are playing the game without paying for it.

[manunited4eva22]

Bash, how many of you guys that say it doesn't hurt that much have actually written a program. I will simplify it down more. How many of you have worked on software engineering? I imagine that if you have done so, then you would not take kindly to someone taking your product.

If you want free things, get into FreeBSD, Linux, darwin if you are a mac user, whatever.  Nearly everything in open source is free, and you can screw around with the code to suit your needs.

Will piracy ever go away completely, probablly not, and piracy always will serve a purpose. Piracy in most cases can be used as a ruler to show how well developed hardware was, and so forth.

You can justify that people like the Vole shouldn't care, but then again, who is more morally right? The thief, or the thief who stole from the thief?

[HiTmaN]

Why do people complain so much about piracy? If you dont want to pirate you dont have to. Pirating is not morally wrong  because companies make cd burners, cd-rws, cd labels and such for creating custom cds. Stupid people who think closing Kazaa down is going to do something are just blind. We need blank cd's for the music, and you cant stop the production of blank cd's. Piracy will never go away because  theres always going to be that one guy that finds the free way to get something. You can hop on the boat and get some free stuff, or pay for it.  

[aoi tsuki]

Quote
Pirating is not morally wrong because companies make cd burners, cd-rws, cd labels and such for creating custom cds

Maybe according to your morals. Morals as a whole are subjective and therefore hold little weight when legality (which is objective) comes into play, which is what usually happens in a piracy debate. The companies that make these products are out to make a profit, plain and simple. They make it because there's a demand for them, and it's legal to do so. Whether or not it's moral to do so is completely up to the individual. The items themselves are not illegal, but the activity of pirating is. Owning a gun (with the proper licenses and whatnot) is legal in the US, but killing someone with it isn't. So is killing not morally wrong because companies make guns?

[manunited4eva22]

Hitman, I take it you support bans on guns. Higher minimum driving ages, banning of all substances that can be misused. Because, frankly, that is the arguement you are making. What you say is that because someone can use a product wrongfully, that company that produces that product is commiting the same moral sin as you.

I just kind of wonder, why do people try to justify pirating? The last time I checked you guys weren't privateers saving the country from other countries products to add to our money, and to boost the economy.

You can't justify what you do, no matter how you may try. It is legally wrong, and I would have to imagine extremely hard to sincerely convince yourself that there is nothing wrong with it.  

[mouse_clicker]

"Hitman, I take it you support bans on guns. Higher minimum driving ages, banning of all substances that can be misused. Because, frankly, that is the arguement you are making. What you say is that because someone can use a product wrongfully, that company that produces that product is commiting the same moral sin as you."

That's really a whole different issue. It comes down to what's more important- people's lives or people's rights. While banning guns, raising the driving age, and making all intoxicating substances illegal is infringing on American rights, it DOES save countless lives. It's really a touchy subject, one I don't personally see that would relate to pirating.

What I'd like to know is if pirating is such a huge problem, why aren't entire industries shutting down because of it? I watched a show a few days ago which said that it's estimated that $9 billion worth of cars are stolen every year in America. Why, then, isn't the car industry completely folding up because of this? I do agree that pirating is moraly wrong, that people really should NOT do it, but to say it's a huge problem just isn't true. People are still buying CD's, people are still buying games, people are still buying movies, and despite a number of other people pirating this stuff, CD's, games, and movies have all seen record sales.

[HiTmaN]

I agree with you Mouse Clicker except for the part where you say you shouldn't pirate. Its really not that big of a deal. Say 1,000 people decide to burn a cd. Thats about $13,000 the artist is missing on. BIG DEAL. Half this artists are in commercials that pay well over that, not even to mention the amounts from merchandise and concert tickets. Now I know someones going to say "WHAT ABOUT THE SMALLER BANDS WHO NEED MONEY" people just use that as a reason to debate against piracy. If your an underground band theres a reason for it. Your not out for the money although its nice to pick up some cash and they DO get paid from concerts etc. The underground band fan base isnt as big as mainstream so they dont expect the big bucks, and most of the fans are loyal and purchase the cds.

Quote
Hitman, I take it you support bans on guns. Higher minimum driving ages, banning of all substances that can be misused. Because, frankly, that is the arguement you are making. What you say is that because someone can use a product wrongfully, that company that produces that product is commiting the same moral sin as you.

I dont remember saying anything about guns, driving ages, or all substances. So uhh...I have no idea what your talking about, And most of the black cds sold say 75 minutes of recording time or something like that on it. What can you put on a blank cd that plays for 75minutes...I wonder...

[mouse_clicker]

I agree that piracy doesn't affect the industry as much as they'd like you to believe, but I still think it's wrong to copy to a CD something an artist worked very hard on (usually) and not pay for it. I won't claim I don't pirate, but I do recognize that to do so is wrong.

[manunited4eva22]

Alright, since you missed the point of my example I will spell it out. You are blaming the group that makes the product that is abused for the wrong done with it.

Right...hitman again, have you ever had some dire need to have any of the things you steal. Has your life ever been in dire need of it. If not then, where is the moral need of it.

Again here is another example. I'm sure a lot of you have seen office space. You see how they decided to steal a penny here and there of the companies money, but it does add up.

You justify what you do the same way they do, it's not that much everytime you do it.

Hmm, 3 billion dollars on games alone, you don't call that a lot of money?

God knows I despise the RIAAs tactics as much as the rest of you, but honestly, there is no way to win against the lawsuits. I'm sure some of you would stand defiant and think you would get away with it. thing is, you are going to be slapped with a very heavy fine in the end, and no one is going to help you pay it.

All these people saying resist the RIAA, put up a stand, very few of them would do it themselves, as at 700 dollars a violation (that is the MINIMUM for copyright infringement), it would be very very costly.

Now back onto the morals of pirating.

What can you put on 80Minute, 700MB discs. well lets see...

burned copies of your own music
vcds
data back ups
pictures
legal back ups of programs

I'm sure there are a lot of other things

The fact that they have minutes on CDs is for convienence. It is far from a message of: "HEY KID STEAL MUSIC!" If it was, don't you think the RIAA would have already gone after them with a vengence?

You want to talk about underground bands, fine. Guess what, a lot of them DO depend on their music revenue, and you still say, they can live with it. If they want to live with it, they will say 'sure put our music wherever' otherwise, you have no right to judge for them what they want.

And pirating is more than 13,000 dollars, oh far more. Lets say the 15 million people on kazaa have atleast one copyrighted song. Thats right there 15 million dollars. lets make that a little more reasonable, 80 songs.

thats 18 BILLION dollars.

If you would like to explain to me how the theft of 18 billion dollars is justified, be my guest.

Once again I leave you with a little riddle: who is worse off, the thief, or the thief who steals from the thief.  

[mouse_clicker]

If you ask me, a dollar to listen to a song is too much. :| I never buy CD's on which each song costs a dollar or more.

[manunited4eva22]

I am just basing it on what most of the internet downloading websites are charging. Arguablly it could be cheaper, but still its hard to argue 14 billion dollars as something to be taken for granted.

[HiTmaN]

I'm not even going to get into it in this post, you explain something and someone goes off talking about something else. I'm just going to leave it at this, if you want to pirate go ahead if you dont shut up and dont pirate.

[Tman]

Piracy isn't theft, theft implies that the owner no longer has the stolen property. Piracy is copyright infringment.