Topic: Controller Wars

[nemo_83]

This is not going to be a war won or lost by graphics as all consoles will have great visuals, but the controllers could be the deciding factor for success.  Will MS and Sony win with traditionalism or will Nintendo be able to meat current standards for controllers while progressing control accuracy and transparency?  What do you guys think?

Here is an acumulation of what I feel is important info on Next gen controllers including the new pics of the NextBox controller which has shoulder buttons above its triggers and a track ball in the center of the controller (why did they not put the track ball in the place of the dpad?).  Too bad it does not have mouse scroll wheels where the new shoulder buttons are.

http://tinypic.com/2nopj7

http://tinypic.com/2nopef


As far as what Sony is doing?  BlacknMild2k1 posted this link.  whitefusion.com
I believe Sony is going to use a track ball.

And what Nintendo is doing?  Well I like modered's idea.  http://www.geocities.com/drkdoubleo/ModeRedFloatStick.bmp

Here is a link explaining gyration that Slingshot posted in his topic.  http://www.projectcoe.com/Nin_SpecialFeatures/rev.html  

Gameinformer and cube.ign say EA says there is a touch screen on the controller.

I hope there is a trackball on the REV controller as it looks like both PS3 and NextBox will have one, and a trackball can offer the same mouse control as a touch screen minus the expensive screen and lack of tactile response.  The only mechanic I can think to be used with a touch screen is to make it a round analog dpad with a touch screen on top.  With such a setup the screen could be used for mouse control and the dpad mechanic beneath inside the controller used for movement, and occasionally a game would come around that uses both mechanics at the same time.  Also it would not be hard to make a touch disk like this capable of being turned/spun for steering in a racing game.  I could imagine such a touch disk being used on top of an analog thumb stick like modered's floating analog stick.  Rather than place a rubber thumb pad on top of the shaft of the stick, place a touch disk with tthe floating analog stick's capabilities.

I have another idea you can view in my signature below.

 

[nemo_83]

woa, I just found something unbelievable.  I am going to have to rethink my ideas.  you have to look at this.

http://www.demo.com/demo2/demonstrators/novint.html

http://www.demo.com/demo2/demonstrators/video/novint.asx

Touching is good, but Feeling is better!




http://www.immersion.com/gaming/arc...ducts/stick

http://www.immersion.com/3d/products/cyber_force

http://www.immersion.com/3d/products/cyber_grasp

http://www.immersion.com/3d/products/cyber_touch

http://www.immersion.com/3d/products/cyber_glove

http://www.immersion.com/industrial/3Dmouse/


http://www.forcedimension.com/fd/avs/home/

 

[Caillan]

That, to me, sounds like something post-DS Nintendo would be interested in. Also, it fits perfectly with their little slogan. It seems like a cool idea but I don't think it would make for an awesome step-up in controllers like shoulder buttons or the anolouge stick did. It doesn't have the same sort of utility those do. It also costs a lot of money, but Nintendo has made the anolouge stick cheap in the past so I guess that isn't too much of a problem for them.

Crap third parties likely wouldn't use it, or if they did they would use it poorly. So it would just be like the Gamecube's hardware in that respect. I say this becasue publishers aren't going to want to spend lots of money on a Nintendo port, and because it's something developers might find difficult to implement. Designers as well as programmers. I'm sure there'd be some default 'templates' available in the dev kit, but if you wanted something unique you'd have to make your own. Nobody's going to have much experience in this so it will be difficult.

I think the worst thing about using this technology is that it would limit R&D1's ability to make a good, sleek controller. If you look at those pics, then you'll see how the tech is still pretty bulky. There'll be no wireless and no rumble with all that squeezed in there.

This contradicts Iwata's statement about third parties either going with Nintendo or leaving them. You could make a game that doesn't use the technology and that doesn't suffer for it. In addition, most people questioned about the Revolution have said that it's an established technology that just hasn't been applied to games yet. This is still pretty new.

I don' think they're going to go with it. Still, I wouldn't complain too much if they did.

[nemo_83]

I honestly feel this technology, used one way or another in gaming will make graphics obsolete, rejuvenate the industry, ignite interest in the hearts of gamers, make controls more transparent and intuitive, and it does not matter how bulky it might turn out to be when it offers the only next generation experience with the most accurate controls, realism, immersion, and most importantly FUN.

No more hitting buttons.  Instead we will be able to swing the sword exactly how and where we want.  We will be able to feel the pull of the sword's weight and the clash with armor, flesh, muscle, and bone.

Temperature generators could even be added into the glove for that extra layer of total immersion.

[Caillan]

Quote
Temperature generators could even be added into the glove for that extra layer of total immersion.

Surely it wouldn't be a glove? That would be like Sega re-releasing the Nomad. I sort of envisioned a traditional controller design with the 'tactile feedback technology' implemented around the sides or something. It's pointless to throw away an excellent existing design founded through years of evolution.

I think it's more of a novelty than much else. An expensive, new and very impressive novelty. Feeling texture and momentum would be great fun, but I don't think it would make games actually much better to play.  

[nemo_83]

Imagine pulling back the string of the bow in Zelda.

Feeling the kick of your gun fire in Metroid.

Feel Mario's body as you balance on platforms.

Imagine swinging the whip in Castlevania.

Or having to feel of the etchings in a stone wall for a secret lever or the seal of a door to a secret room.

You could even plausibly use this technology to draw in 3D and create custom polygonal objects, characters, and enviroments.

[pudu]

Wow this really got me thinking.  I am still trying to think of a viable way Nintendo could include technology such as in the Novint Falcon (product link)  I've thought about adding it to their next joystick which may be like the sliding one like modred's idea (link here), but adding on top of that idea having that Novint Falcon tech integrated into it to feel surfaces texture and actual mass through means of resistance.  It seems like the natural progression of the analogue stick because it offers tactile feedback.

Another Idea I thought of was having the controller be two handed but have the fingers go into a glove-like aparatus (leaving the thumbs free to use buttons and sticks like usual).  The point of this would be to have the fingers able to move and "feel" objects.  But this is getting more into Immersion's territory  (Immersion Products).  What I imagine is the fingers be placed into a sort of half glove with functionaliry similar to their "CyberTouch" glove or if it could somehow be solved their "CyberGrasp" glove (although I find this HIGHLY unlikely).

At any rate I'm probably getting too excited about this given I don't have a clue what Nintendo might actually use in thier controller...but than again looking at the supposed new pics of the xbox next prototype controller it wouldn't be hard to one-up that.  If the main progression of Sony and MS's controllers is the inclusion of wireless standard (if you can call this an innovation) and a trackball Nintendo doesn't have too far to go to simply embarrass both of them.  

[nemo_83]

I was beginning to think about how the force feedback could be implemented into the thumb stick too?  The applications are limitless.  They could easily put something like this into the triggers too.

Here is another company with a haptic controller.  

http://www.forcedimension.com/fd/avs/home/

I edited my earlier post and put this link with the others.  

[slingshot]

The problem with all the stuff about a glove- and being able to swing your sword at enemies is that, if you get tired- you
won't be able to swing your sword as well, and you won't do as well in the game.  Also, if we are talking about swinging
a sword or whip, we would have to be facing the right direction to hit the enemy right= what if the enemy is behind us?  
We would have to turn around, and then we would not be looking at the tv.

OOOOOhhh, here is a really cook idea that could be done right now- sort of a fudged hologram room.  I'd do it if I had the
cash.

- So you get 6 large screens- as big as possible, ideally like 12 feet- maybe a rear projection would be required.
You possition the screens in a cube formation- so that you are in a square 12 foot room.  One of the four walls could be
on wheels, so you can enter from a side, without a door.  Now all you need is some video footage that is shot from 6
different angles about 6 feet off the ground (about what most people are)  And suddenly you could be in the middle of
Paris, or the veldt, or on a mountain!

There would be a very solid plexiglass floor to stand on that covers the floor screen- so you won't fall through it-
Maybe there could be plexi-glass on all sides?  Anyways- it would be awesome!

Video games could be incorporated by a flight sim type game- a walking game would require some kind of  living track
ball that you could walk on.  So that is a ways off, but you could sit in a chair or stand and play it with a controller.

WOW>

[Cube_King]

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
This is not going to be a war won or lost by graphics as all consoles will have great visuals, but the controllers could be the deciding factor for success.

Sony could easily steal Nintendo's idea and release a new controller with the new features after the console's launch like they did with the joystick and then no-body cares who came up with it first anymore...

[nemo_83]

I think Sony has paddeled too far up the creek in the wrong direction with billions invested in CELL for "revolutionary graphics."  E3 is going to be wild.  Sony is 61 billion dollars in debt and now the maker of one of these haptic controllers has won a 90 million dollar law suit.  MS is an owner of stock in Immersion and could still pull something out of their ass.  Hell MS and Nintendo may be working together, we won't know until E3.  

I do know that the old "touching is good but feeling is better" rumor featured a description of feeling the spines of an enemy, and that Nintendo said they were using a technology that already exists, just not on a mass market level yet.  So if the old rumor from the guy who revealed the DS last year is true then the REV controller will feature Gyros and most likely haptic technology.  How any of this fits with Gameinformer's touch screen confirmation is anyone's guess, but this surly means the A/B buttons and dpad are history.  I could imagine the stylus having a button, trigger, scroll wheel, track ball, or joystick.  on it to complement the haptic and gyration tech.  

I still am not sure how gyros and haptic could work together.

[Ian Sane]

"why did they not put the track ball in the place of the dpad?"

Because that makes no sense.  Can you play Street Fighter with a track ball?  It's not a replacement it's an alternative.  I don't think the positioning of the trackball is great but I think adding it is a great idea.  Trackballs have been part of gaming since that old Atari football arcade game and classics like Centipede used them.  It's a real wonder how a trackball hasn't been used on a standard controller until now.  It's kind of a "now why didn't I think of that" idea.

It's such a good idea that I'm surprised MS, who seems to be in the mindset of just making games bigger and more commercial, would think of it.  Which is why I'm theorizing that they in fact DIDN'T think of it and perhaps that was Nintendo's idea for the Rev and it got leaked so the others are copying them.  It's a good idea and it's something that isn't impossible or expensive to implement so it fits Nintendo's vague descriptions better than some of the bizarre ideas people have thrown around (some of which aren't technologically feasible.)

Of course now Nintendo might be in a bit of jam.  If the trackball was their idea then they no longer have any advantage because the competitors are doing it too.  If they don't have a trackball they're going to wang multiplatform ports.  If they have something different it's going to be compared to the trackball so it has to really wow people.  And even if the difference is good they have the problem that they're not number one or two and third parties will go with Sony's and Microsoft's ideas first regardless of how good Nintendo's is.

I think the best thing for Nintendo would be if their controller was nearly identical and they just used amazing game design as their advantage or they had the same controller plus something else (like the same controller but also with motion control built in) just to provide a little edge.  They won't get anywhere with something different.  They just don't have that kind of position anymore to dictate major changes.  Remember that when they debuted the analog stick they were number one.

But man does MS including that trackball throw a monkeywrench in Nintendo's plans.  Their promise of innovation and new types of gaming only works if the competition doesn't do something new and innovative.  Now they have and Nintendo might end up with egg on their face if their idea is exactly the same or inferior.

[trip1eX]

I doubt that's a trackball on the xbox next controller cause of it's position.  Your thumb would be hitting the right stick and possibly hitting the buttons at you used it.    IT looks more like a rounded xbox logo to me.  

I do think a trackball or trackpad would be great for fps games.  And that's what the xbox has tons of right now.  

Nintendo's controller is not going to be something revolutionary for the gamer.  It's for Mom's.  I had high hopes but after I heard Iwata speak I threw out any hope of it being something useful for say fps games.

[mantidor]

he never said it was for moms, he said that if a mom sees "her kid" playing she would want to play it too. That implies that "kids" (lets just say fps fans as an example) will also enjoy the product they are offering.

btw if thats a trackball MS couldnt thought of a worst place to put it, if its a trackball it simply sucks, theres no way that the trackball can be used with accuracy unless the controller is tiny, but then if the control is really tiny it becames unconfortable as a whole... its not a trackball, I cant believe a hardware designer can be that stupid

[Bill Aurion]

"Of course now Nintendo might be in a bit of jam. If the trackball was their idea then they no longer have any advantage because the competitors are doing it too. If they don't have a trackball they're going to wang multiplatform ports."

You've got to be kidding...

1) A trackball isn't what Ninty is thinking...
2) The trackball isn't a primary means of input, as using this so-called trackball (which still is yet to be proven) would restrict the use of either side of the controller (much a la N64 controller)

[nemo_83]

I have been pushing my idea of the perfect trackball placement for a while now, just check my signature.  What I want now is to have what I drew in my picture, the facial mechanics for the thumbs and fingers, to be placed on the haptic technology as the "handle."

The only thing I feel needs improvement aside from the absence of any buttons on the stylus on the Falcon is that they need to take the stylus used with the Falcon and make it so we hold it less like a pencil and more like a long paint brush,sword, or gun.

[Spak-Spang]

I do like the idea of a track ball, but I wonder about Microsoft's controller.  The positioning of the trackball is almost pointless...how do you use the trackball and other items easily.

I would have rather perfered the trackball taking the place of the 2nd analog stick.  I never was a big fan of two analog sticks...it forced you to play with fewer buttons, or made you juggle between movement and button control...the trackball would do the same thing, but perhaps be more natural.

A trackball would be great for some games, but it isn't special or revolutionary.  It is actually pretty boring.  

[nemo_83]

what do you guys think of the Falcon?

[Spak-Spang]

Hmmm.  I like Nemo's track ball idea...with the Gyros for the Lefthand movement.  Take the buttons out of that controller though.  Or limit it to a trigger and another.

If you were using Gyros for the main manipulation for movement, the perfect secondary manipulation would be a Trackball over an analog stick.  Here is why.  You could stop moving the trackball without it snapping back into position like that analog stick would.  It would provide a more fluid and smooth control as well.  However, you would want to make sure the trackball wasn't too loose, and was able to spin too fast.  

The floating analog stick on the side is a great idea, for games that need it.  

The biggest problem with this setup is no traditional D-pad.  Do we really need that though?  
The only games that absolutely have to have that are fighting games, and really it isn't a total bust not to have it.

On the other side of the controller, I would want a very traditional button layout.  4 buttons and a trigger button.  If you want to have another floating analog stick, then I am cool with that.  

Last, I want the controllers to be able to connect and be comfortable.  Just in case the games need a more traditional control style.  Gryos can be used, but I really don't want them used for crazy stuff like swinging swords.  I just want them used for a more natural movement input device.

[Spak-Spang]

One last thing.  Nintendo needs more than just one element new and revolutionary about the controller.  They need it to be big enough to notice immediately, and something that would be hard and expensive for Microsoft and Sony to copy.  Something that if they did copy would require people to buy completely new controllers, that may not work as well with the older games, creating a split market.  

[nemo_83]

I also have a simpler version without so many buttons

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/nemo_83/revo.jpg

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
One last thing.  Nintendo needs more than just one element new and revolutionary about the controller.  They need it to be big enough to notice immediately, and something that would be hard and expensive for Microsoft and Sony to copy.  Something that if they did copy would require people to buy completely new controllers, that may not work as well with the older games, creating a split market.

did you check out the video of the Falcon?  that is revolutionary.

[Ian Sane]

"Something that if they did copy would require people to buy completely new controllers, that may not work as well with the older games, creating a split market."

Wouldn't something that major create a split market between Nintendo and everyone else?  If it was THAT major Sony and MS wouldn't even have to copy it.  They could just keep things as is and snatch up all the third parties and gamers that don't feel like conforming to Nintendo's different design.

I do think it would be good though if copying it did require a new controller like the Playstation analog controller.  But anything that wouldn't work well with older games would just screw Nintendo over more than anything else.  It needs to be something major, but that adds to the existing design so that the Rev can do everything the other consoles can plus more.

[nemo_83]

but this can do everything plus more.  you can feel the center of gravity and balance your character in 3D platforming.

just imagine what such a direct control scheme could do for SSB.

[Spak-Spang]

Ian:  Yeah I didn't write that well.  What I meant was that the old controller would be useless with the new games.  I don't care if they design the new one to where it would work with old games.  

The idea is that it would split the market for a time between old controllers and new controllers.  Yeah it would just be a temporary thing, but it would help.