Author Topic: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.  (Read 34689 times)

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Offline Djunknown

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Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« on: September 15, 2006, 07:12:34 PM »
This might be bad timing, with everyone 'wiiing' their pants over Thursday's announcement, but time for a healthy dose of skeptiscism. Rank-and-file fanboys, you've been warned. This might sting even more, since PGC's founder is the one sounding off. [insert fanboy argument about how Billy's changed, he's not a Nintendo fan anymore, blah blah, double blah....]

read with care.

There are some valid points (like the 64, the 'Cube will be D-E-A-D and done for when the Wii launches, while Sony is still getting mileage out of the PS2...), and he covers his bases well by stringing past examples together. However, one must also remember the parable of the DS. The DS is very much alive and well, and won't be knocked off the top spot anytime soon.

Nevertheless, its good to have some sound, sane, and supported (no alliteration intended.) counter-arguments.

Alright, let 'er rip....



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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2006, 07:16:53 PM »
I want to know who these Nintendo fans supposedly everywhere who cheered at the 249.99 price point, talk about an exagerration. It has already adversely impacted my opinion of his "analysis" but I'll finish it.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2006, 07:30:51 PM »
Blah I think the guy is full crap to be honest, he conveniently relegates all the 3rd party exclusives to being "few" and doesn't mention that chances are 3 of them will be for launch. Elebits, Red Steel (A very promising title), and Rayman. Not to mention the fact that Wii exclusives are growing every day from 3rd parties, and it definately has more exclusive support than Gamecube from 3rd parties. On a related note, Nintendo's launch lineup is solid, maybe even more so than Xbox 360 or really about any other previous system, it has a good mixture of different games many of which are exclusive.

Once again he rehashes the same argument about Wii being graphically underpowered and why would you want to play a grahically inferior game. Hey there, could it be that people may want to try out a different way of playing a game even if it isn't a true exclusive? Perhaps he hasn't been paying attention, but there are some WIi games out there that look quite gorgeous even without the graphical horsepower of the 360.

I understand his thinking that we should pay attention to the past, and he is right to a degree, but Wii is doing something those other consoles never did, and that is truly something NEW. This is relatively uncharted territory with really only the NIntendo DS taking a similar approach.  Unlike Gamecube, the press is 100% behind Nintendo, and the amount of hype going around about the system is staggering, that is nothing like Gamecube, which had hype but nothing to degree of Wii (Hey that rhymes!).
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Offline Pale

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2006, 07:34:12 PM »
Billy is far from full of crap... He's just kind of jaded and knows how to write an article.  His points are valid.  I think a lot of them just don't bother people (like us) as much.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 07:42:51 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Pale
Billy is far from full of crap... He's just kind of jaded and knows how to write an article.  His points are valid.  I think a lot of them just don't bother people (like us) as much.


I find most of his points to be ridiculous especially the lack of 3rd party support and convenientyly forgetting there are more exclusives than Nintendo's games at launch. Then again my opinion was substantially lowered when he said Nintendo fanboys everywhere cheered at the low price, that is about as stupid as you can get. I doubt even those here that don't mind it were "cheering" or even close to it.
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Offline RickPowers

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2006, 07:56:16 PM »
While the GameCube hardware might be dead, GameCube software could easily end up the "bargain games" for Wii.  Native support for GameCube games on Wii is going to keep some of that software coming ... I'm sure of it.  Especially if they really want to go after the casual gamer who is more cost conscious.  I could easily see games like Sudoku or Brain Training being released as GameCube software so that you could play it on GameCube or Wii.

(Can't help but notice that Billy listed Pikmin twice in his part about GameCube launch titles.  I think the old man is becoming a "wii" bit addled ... )  
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Offline Caterkiller

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2006, 08:00:57 PM »
One major difference I see with Wii compared to the NGC is that the press behind Wii has been fer it almost totaly. I had just started high school when the Gamecube came out, and I read every piece of material there was about it. And boy was I excited. But I will never forget how often, an  article online or in a magazine would write it off like it was going to fail no matter what. On the school yard, there was soooo much going for the PS2 that the Gamecube could barely compete in an argument. Well I could out argue anyone at school, I just say to people in person what we say on these boards.  It's appearance, the games being "tiku tiku tiku! ," all of that jibberish were constantly knocking it down in the eyes of others.

But now, things don't just seem so much different they are alot different. The press has been eating up Wii since E3, and everytime we turn around there is something negative about the PS3 going down.  The difference in graphics, may be alittle bigger this time around, but the PS2 still had the worst graphics of them all, and still came out on top. If Madden and FPS's are more fun on Wii, you can bet your sweet apples that the Wii will sell like crazy.  

I really need to pick up my friend from the train station, but my over all point is that Nintendo is seen in a different light now'a days. People use to think this was Nintendo's generation to just gain market share, now many of us believe Nintendo can potentialy be number one this time around. Ok I really need to leave.  
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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2006, 08:09:09 PM »
My big question about Gamecube and Wii support is this.

Will the classic Virtual console controller work with Gamecube games?  I need to know, because I need to buy new Cube controllers.

But also this has baring on Wii players getting Gamecube games.  If the Wii Controller works well then old Cube games become new again and better.

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Offline SixthAngel

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2006, 08:13:13 PM »
"Why should I buy a game that doesn’t look as good, controls strangely, and doesn’t have the online capabilities as the Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3 version?"

This represents my biggest complaint.  He just doesn't understand what Nintendo wants to do.  The strange control is what Nintendo is pushing as the biggest seller of the system and yet he uses it as a negative.  If you see the controls as a negative the Wii is not for you.  He then precedes to run through the tried and true HD graphics arguement that I have heard a thousand times and still don't buy (literally).  

Offline trip1eX

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2006, 08:20:26 PM »
So this article basically says Nintendo wasn't number 1 the last two generations so he has his doubts about the Wii?  

Thanks for nothing.  Not even any good arguments in there.  I was disappointed.  I was expecting some good counterpoints about the Wii and I got none.

You  don't drive a car looking in the rearview mirror.  

 
The guy is just jaded.  I had fun on the GAmecube.  IT had over 500 some titles.  How many games does someone need?  IT's almost as if the guy is asking NIntendo to be an EA and just shovel crap out the door yearly 'cause he needs something to buy.    

Offline Nick DiMola

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2006, 08:41:54 PM »
I read VGRev's post and said to myself, Billy isn't full of crap he is just jaded. Scroll down a little more, Pale, you took the words from my mouth.

I thought he had a lot of interesting points and I agree with him being pissed about no HD cables packaged with the Wii (another cost on day 1 for me). But I also agree strongly with Caterkiller, the Wii has alot more going for it than the Cube did from the starting gate. People want a Wii and not so much a PS3, complete opposite of the last generation. Nintendo also seems like they really have it together this time. A bunch of clear differences from the Cube and I'm excited to see how it turns out. If the DS is any indication of the Wii, I think Nintendo is looking REALLY good.
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Offline RickPowers

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2006, 08:44:27 PM »
Billy's not jaded.  Billy's a lot like me ... he feels left behind by his favorite game company, the company he grew up with.  Billy and I are both old-school, and I'm pretty sure I had an editorial like this a while back.  Fact is, Nintendo knows that there are a lot more non-gamers than "core gamers", and while they might throw us a bone every so often, Nintendo's focus is clearly on expanding the games market, not on pleasing their long-time fans.

It was very hard for me to accept this.  I struggled with it.  What finally brought me around was when my wife became interested in things like Animal Crossing and Nintendogs, and I realized that Wii would be a great way to get my wife interested in different kinds of games, and to play with me rather than reading a book while I play.  Because the controls are more natural (and don't rely as much on twitch response), it's possible that my wife could finally find a game like The Legend of Zelda intriguing enough to try.
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Offline Crimm

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2006, 08:46:05 PM »
Billy basically said what my primary fear is.  

Just because we have a new control scheme doesn't mean that the Wii will meet a different fate then the GCN.  We know that Nintendo fans buy the first party titles, but don't tend to shell out for third parties unless Mother N hypes the game.

If that happens with the Wii, it's doomstown.  The games may be cheep to make, but that isn't worth anything if no one buys them.

I think pointing to the DS (which he didn't do, but Nintendo does) is somewhat disingenuous as well.  Nintendo had dominated the handheld market for a decade, so many people bought what Nintendo was selling.  This isn't an advantage Nintendo has with the Wii, so they can't spend a year getting traction (see: DS, GC).  They have to hit the ground running.  They haven't proven to me they can do that, because I've been burned twice now.  My launch N64 and launch GCN.

They've made these same promises before.  I remember their cheers when they showed the GCN, "we've turned a corner" "no more dead times like with the NINTENDO 64."  Well, short of "The Mercenaries" (RE4) my GC is quite dusty.
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Offline wandering

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2006, 09:08:49 PM »
I have no problems with the article. Like it or not, the Wii could see the same fate as the GCN. I think that's something alot of us secretly fear. Though I must bring up this quote:

Quote

Although there are a number of third party titles slated for launch, if developers take the same port approach they did with the Nintendo DS launch, those games will become the exact same quality the DS third party titles were – crap.

First of all, the people who have played alot of these third party Wii games say they aren't crap. And second of all, the DS has been a hige success, with an incredible games library I can barely keep up with, in spite of the crappy games.

Personally, I don't have many worries when it comes to the Wii. We were all excited about Nintendo's return to form with the GameCube, and that didn't pan out, true. But there were alot of issues then that aren't present now. Also - and I hate to say this, but even if the Wii "fails" like the Cube and N64 did, as long as I get Zeldas, Metroids, and Marios, I'll be happy.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2006, 09:15:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: wandering
Also - and I hate to say this, but even if the Wii "fails" like the Cube and N64 did, as long as I get Zeldas, Metroids, and Marios, I'll be happy.


I'm almost in the same boat, but replace those three titles with Smash Bros, as that game alone will be more than enough to keep me happy for a long, long time with online play.
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Offline Artimus

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2006, 09:37:43 PM »
Mmm, I love Billy but I don't agree with 95% of this article.

First of all, the impression of the 3rd party launch titles is totally misrepresented. The comparison to the DS launch is misleading. The DS had basically no quality 3rd party launch titles but already Wii is expected to have Rayman, Red Steel, Madden, Trauma Center, etc. His assertation that there are no original games being made for it are baffling as well. I look at the list of release dates and the amount of original and exclusive titles is huge, 50% minimum. That doesn't even count games like Rayman which are designed primarily to be on Wii, but have other console counterparts. His comments are just untrue and make little sense.

I'm also getting tired of people blaming Nintendo for delaying their games. People want amazing games and they want them now. Nevermind that if you release games before they're ready you don't get quality. The reason for the drought isn't Nintendo but third parties. Yes that is quite a bit to do with Nintendo's business, but it isn't the fault of their software teams. One company can only make so much quality software! In fact, the only systems to NOT suffer from droughts have been the first place system. NES, SNES, PSX and PS2 are the only ones that didn't have a huge problem in this area (maybe Genesis). The N64 did, the GCN did, the XBOX has, the 360 does right now. Heck, the PSP has had a two year one and the DS had one for 6 months. The idea that this is a Nintendo problem is absurd, it's a non-market leader problem. If Nintendo can greatly increase their market share they'll have a steady stream of games. It's no coincidence that the worst droughts (after launch) came as the N64 and GCN lost more and more market share.

It's also tiring to see his dismissal of the controls. If the controller doesn't prove to be any more advantageous then the Wii will, indeed, fail. That's the risk being taken. But he's totally ignoring that. I mean the very term "controls strangely" is so silly it's hard to respond to. If all the games made for Wii "control silly" then of COURSE the system will fail. Usually if something sucks hard it doesn't do well (except in prostitution and politics). Duh, Billy, duh. And yes, if the third party games like the DS launch games suck then they too will fail. The amusing part is that he uses the DS as an example of crappy third party titles, but then totally ignores the current DS situation. Companies like SEGA, Atlus, Capcom, Konami, Square Enix and EA are having stellar DS sales. Phoenix Wright, Trauma Center, Castlevania, Mana & Final Fantasy are all success stories. Plus there are companies like Ubisoft and Majesco selling a fantastic amount. Far greater than any on Nintendo's past two consoles. PLUS these games are receiving great reviews. And we haven't even had the release of the Square games in North America yet! If anything the DS is an example of new controls proving their worth, and being a driving force in improving Nintendo's third party situation.

I am also terribly confused about Twilight Princess. One week we're being told by IGN that it's not hardcore, the next week Billy is saying it's "beyond" hardcore. Make up your minds mainstream game sites! Seriously, though. Next to Mario, Zelda is the best selling series Nintendo has. Does he really expect a Zelda at launch to NOT sell systems? Absurd. Absolutely absurd. How many systems have that good a system seller on day one? None since 1996. If anything it's even better than Mario because it won't appeal to the casual gamer as much, leaving room for other games that DO appeal that person (WiiSports, Madden). And it also means that younger households will be buying a third party game instead of just Nintendo's.  That also leaves Mario for next year when the system has a larger installed base, allowing it to use its broad appeal by itself, when it's more important than the obvious sellout launch.  Having Mario and Zelda within one year is perfect, and having Zelda go at launch when there are other less "beyond" hardcore games getting the spotlight is the wiser move. There's also the fact that Mario is, you know, still being made...

I just feel this article is way below the quality of intelligence Billy used to bring to PGC. It honestly reads like a 1UP article, more intent on the opinion than the argument, and I know that's a pretty harsh insult. I think Rick actually said the truth about this: it's just an angry attempt to justify emotions. Billy, much like Ian, doesn't care about Nintendo being successful if it means they won't focus on him. At the same time he wants them to be more traditional and yet he lays out an argument for why that isn't going to work. Basically the only way to please him is for Nintendo to make their games for the 360 and PS3. He doesn't like Nintendo's direction and he's forcing that feeling onto an "analysis" of their upcoming system. It doesn't work. He's valid to feel left out, but that's all it is. His criticisms are focused on half-truths and thoughts.

What it all boils down to is that Billy is afraid Nintendo won't make the games he wants them too, and he's taking his frustration out on the system that is causing those fears.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2006, 09:41:57 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
I read VGRev's post and said to myself, Billy isn't full of crap he is just jaded. Scroll down a little more, Pale, you took the words from my mouth.

I thought he had a lot of interesting points and I agree with him being pissed about no HD cables packaged with the Wii (another cost on day 1 for me). But I also agree strongly with Caterkiller, the Wii has alot more going for it than the Cube did from the starting gate. People want a Wii and not so much a PS3, complete opposite of the last generation. Nintendo also seems like they really have it together this time. A bunch of clear differences from the Cube and I'm excited to see how it turns out. If the DS is any indication of the Wii, I think Nintendo is looking REALLY good.


Yeah but I said Wii had more going for it first, before Caterkiller! SO there! The lack of HD Cables is one thing I did agree with, I see no reason why NIntendo couldn't have a sprung a bit more for a the red,blue,green cables, they can't be that much. Oh well I hope they are easy to find UNLIKE Gamecube's. Maybe tomorrow or sometime I'll do a point by point analysis of the article, one thing I did notice was his mentioning of launch titles, I could have sworn Rogue Squadron was a launch title yet he didn't list it (I believe that was considered a big game).

Anyway here is why I think Wii will turn out differently than GameCube:

-As mentioned before, the press is eating it up.

-Solid launch lineup, tons of systems at launch and really a true worldwide launch

-Nintendo's strategy has paid off with Nintendo DS even with stiff competition from Sony (showing that brand is something Sony can no longer rely on)

-Even though I think the price is a tad high, it still has perception of being worth the money, maybe even more so

-For once Nintendo is taking a risk instead of competing head to head against MS or Sony hardware wise

-Going to back to DS, it is proving that non-gamers will try out a gaming system if the right games are for it. Wii appears to be having this (GC didn't have this strategy)

-There is a much larger gap in price this time, before you had 3 competitively priced systems and little to differentiate them besides specific game franchises

-3rd party support is stronger than it was with Gamecube with a launch game lineup having more exclusive 3rd party games (promising games too) than since, well, the NES/SNES days

-Exclusives are starting to turn into multiplatform for PS3/Xbox 360, this could end up benefitting Nintendo

-Sony is having some of the toughest development problems EVER that could haunt them

-Companies can make games for Wii for a vastly cheaper price than the Xbox 360 or PS3. Yet another huge benefit

-Finally the Japanese are some crazy gamers and they can't get enough of Wii!
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2006, 09:47:22 PM »
Yeah for Artimus, guess I don't need to dissect it word by word. He explained why I felt this particular article had alot of misinformation and was loaded with some ridiculous arguments. I have nothing against Billy but I did find this article to be poorly thought out and spread with, what I felt, was terrible information/arguments. Hence why I said he was full of crap in it, I've read much better arguments for this side (Ian being one).
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2006, 10:23:50 PM »
Meh. This article applies to the GameCube 2.

The articles basically lists Nintendo's failures under Yamauchi and the transition to Iwata period. This is easily rendered irrelevant after seeing the drastic sea change under full-powered-Iwata and Fils-aime, the amazing new direction taken by the DS, the new direction taken by the Wii, AND the downfall of the hardcore gamer in terms of market relevance (see: profitability of Brain Age).

Then it lists some typical negatives about the Wii that aren't invalid, but have the usual mix of arguments why they will or won't happen/matter, and of course the wondering over whether third parties will follow Nintendo's lead where they haven't for the 64 or the GC... well, that last one IS still valid...

I think that we would not be worried at all if we saw serious Third Party variety and exclusives in the future. I mean, looking to the future, what great 3rd party games are there? Heroes,  BioHazard Chronicles, and...?

I change my mind.

Billy's article wasn't a complete waste. Most of it I don't care for... but whereas the PS3 and X360 seem to decent variety of AAA-esque third party releases on the horizon... is there still reason to be cautious when we don't have all our ducks lined up? Or... will this be like the DS, where the third-party DS games only came later and Nintendo needs to build up most of the momentum on its own?

Hmm...

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2006, 11:22:46 PM »
3rd parties will start pouring in once the Wii is seen as a success, it will just take time. I know there is a pretty long list of Wii exclusives from third parties, those games you mentioned along with the Crystal Cronicles, Dragon Quest, Sadness, and I know there are some others. We also have games like the Madden series made from the ground up just for Wii, that has to be considered an exclusive of sorts rigtht? In addition to that you may have some multiplatform games made specifically to take advantage of the control, that is more than your average multiplatform game. At least with the Wii, companies are forced to at least try to take advantage of controls leaving potential for unique experiences that cannot be found on the other systems. One great thing about Wii too is since the development costs are lower smaller companies have a shot at creating some exclusives for it. BTW Kairon you are forgetting the 3rd parties for Wii at launch, this is one of the first times in awhile where a 3rd party game is highly anticipated on a Nintendo system like Red Steel is or even Rayman

Xbox 360 nor PS3 have that many "AAA" exclusives from 3rd parties (they may have a few multiplatform ones though), and that is mainly what were talking about. Besides in order for either MS or Sony to survive they need LOTS of 3rd parties since they don't really have many triple A exclusives from their in house development team.  
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Offline IceCold

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2006, 11:36:58 PM »
You know, when the DS came out, Billy basically trashed it, saying that it was the one Nintendo system he was not excited about.. We all know how that turned out.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2006, 11:40:12 PM »
This gets me wondering, who DIDN'T trash the DS when it came out? Seriously?

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2006, 11:50:50 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
This gets me wondering, who DIDN'T trash the DS when it came out? Seriously?

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::Raises hand:: I was excited about Nintendo DS ever since it was announced at E3 (still one of my favorite Nintendo press conferences). My only gripe with the system now is that I feel the touch screen is used for things that would be better off controlled with an analog stick (I'm looking at you Mario 3 on 3, what a huge dissapointment you were!).
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2006, 11:55:08 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
This gets me wondering, who DIDN'T trash the DS when it came out? Seriously?

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This is why I think after a week or two people will get over the price of the controllers and the console and just move on.

Nintendo just has this ability to shock and surprise the gaming industry, the media and the fans to the point where anything they do is a bad idea. This happened a lot back in the day, but this seems to be happening often recently, I think right around the time Iwata and Reggie came to Nintendo.

You could say that Nintendo are either the most stubborn people in the world or pure geniuses.

For example, naming the system "The Wii" was seen by everyone as the worst decision ever. Yet Nintendo did such a great job with it that people no longer make rude jokes about it and just want to play it. The Twilight Princess move is one of those decisions no one agrees on, even if logically it will be far more beneficial for Nintendo and the console. And now, we have the Wii with the supposedly free Wii sports.

I'm almost at the point where I will not criticize anything Nintendo does and just wait to see what happens because in the past few months they have proven me wrong like crazy.
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Offline Mario

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RE: Grand Master Billy speaks on the Wii.
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2006, 12:18:15 AM »
Despite all these CONFIRMED AWESOME things happening, there are SOME things which MAY appear which MAY go horribly wrong! Colour me sceptical! Wii is DOOMED!