Topic: Revolutionary Controller

[Luffy1Piece]

 Here's a pic I made of what I think it will most likely look like.


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/Luffy1Piece/nrvcont.png

[Rellik]

I totally agree about the gyroscopes, by the way.  I've been speculating about this for a long time - it's not only the most intuitive form of control, but it's also a much more effective method of force feedback.

I doubt that the controller will into separate parts.  It's probably possible, but more trouble than it's worth.  Would they put separate wireless ports on each section?  Wouldn't that suck if you lost half of it?  Isn't that a huge complication when they're aiming for simplicity?

Anyway, even if Nintendo's controller doesn't utilize an internal gyroscope for the purposes of tactile control and force feedback, I hope this kind of controller will be developed someday.  The tactile control available with a gyroscope is much more advanced and precise than that available with a Tilt 'n Tumble-type tilt sensor; even just one embedded gyroscope would be able to cause smooth resistance to tilt, and another configuration could conceivably do all sorts of things with it.

If this isn't the wave of the future, I don't know what is.  It's kind of an *OF COURSE* that the controller should be able to convey tactile information back to the player - and Rumble is only the very first tiny step towards that.

[Ian Sane]

"it's not only the most intuitive form of control"

Can anyone explain to me why moving my arms around (and getting fatigued as a result) to swing a sword is more intuitive than pushing a button to swing a sword?  With any sort of motion control I have to be precise.  A movement that to me makes sense might not work because the developer thought differently.  That doesn't happen with buttons.  I push the button and it works.  The developer doesn't have to take into account that I move goofy compared to the rest of the world.

It's like typing.  A lot of people say that using a microphone and dictating what you want to write is more intuitive.  It's not.  You have to pronounce everything perfectly and you don't have as much freedom to change what you want to write in the middle of sentence.  The program has to guess whether you want "there", "their" or "they're" depending on the context.  There's no error with pushing keys.  I type "t-h-e-r-e" I don't get "their".  It's the same with motion control.  I push "A" to do a horizontal swing and I push "B" to do a vertical swing.  I don't have to worry about waving my hand in a vertical fashion and having the program interpret it as horizontal.

The precision of pushing buttons crushes motion control like a grape.  With most games these days if I do the wrong thing it's because I screwed up.  You throw motion control in and now I can lose because the game screwed up. I think "jab", I "jab" with my hand, the game throws an uppercut because I was a millimetre off.  LAME.

I agree though that the possibilities for force feedback and very nice.

[wandering]

Well- it depends on what you're doing in the game. You're right that having to use hand gestures to indicate actions would be annoying. But imagine if-instead of swinging a gyro controller in certain ways to trigger pre-set actions, imagine if instead the sword moved on-screen exactly as you move your hand. Imagine a view screen that moves around to the precise movement of your hand instead of the imprecise movement of an analog stick.

[Ian Sane]

"imagine if instead the sword moved on-screen exactly as you move your hand. Imagine a view screen that moves around to the precise movement of your hand instead of the imprecise movement of an analog stick."

The problem with that approach is that I'll suck at the game if I'm a lousy swordsman.  Which I am since I'm not a warrior and this isn't the Hyborean Age.  That kind of thing is cool but it's not better or more intuitive to button pushing.  It's just different.

[jasonditz]

For someone who hasn't played a lot of video games before, swinging a sword by swinging your arm and feeling feedback when you connect is definately more intuitive than remembering which button to press. If done properly it also offers a lot more control.

I demand in the name of decency that somebody make a first person Star Wars game (maybe using the Jedi Academy engine) in which you can fight online lightsaber duels in this manner

[Rellik]

That isn't what I meant, Ian Sane.

That kind of control would be unbelievably unintuitive!  Not what I'm invisioning.

Gyroscopic control detects tilt.  In that sense, it's like a Tilt'n'Tumble.  It's just much more advanced, precise, and can be used in different configurations for more dimensions of control.

You still hit the button to swing your sword.  The gyroscopic control would more likely be used to control movement or camera.

I think you can invision how the control could act as a steering wheel or joystick with gyroscopes, so let me pose this: image you're playing Zelda.  To walk forward, instead of using an analog stick (which we're all used to but non-gamers and newly acquired gamers have a hard time picking up) you just tilt the controller slightly away from you.  Not anything drastic - you feel the controller push back at you as you move it forward.  If there's a wall, the feedback will be harder.  You want to turn, so you tilt the left or right side slightly downard - it's simple, intuitive, like riding a bike.

I guess I should probably be more clear about what a gyroscope is.  A gyroscope is a device that utilizes the laws of classical mechanics to stay stable.  It spins around, and the faster it spins, the more it resists to you tilting it.  If you do tilt it, it is sensable in the change in speed of the gyroscope.  Gyroscopes can be used in different configurations (it could be just one, or it could be one on the left and one on the right, it could be 4, I'm no expert, so I don't know which one would be optimal) to have the capability to register various types of motion and to be able to exert certain types of feedback.

So there you have it, Ian Sane.  It's more like riding a bike than swinging a sword - subtle movements control motion on-screen, and action on-screen controls the force the gyroscope exerts on the controller which is the force the controller exerts on your hands.  You must have seen small children try to tilt the controller to get the character to move, twisting it, turning it - that's the way we tend to think.  Analog sticks are great, if you're used to them - but gyroscopic control is more accessable to non-gamers while being a possibly more functional variety of control and definitely more capable of adding another dimension to the gamer's experience.

[wandering]

"The problem with that approach is that I'll suck at the game if I'm a lousy swordsman.  Which I am since I'm not a warrior and this isn't the Hyborean Age.  That kind of thing is cool but it's not better or more intuitive to button pushing.  It's just different."                                                          

Well...I sort of agree with you that getting too realistic or too physical might be a bad idea. But simulating experiences you wouldn't normally experience...that's part of the fun of videogames. I'm not a general but I enjoy RTSs. I'm not a pilot but I enjoy arcade flight sims. I'm horrible at multi-tasking but I enjoy Pikmin. Actually, I think I learn new skills from videogames all the time. You just need to find a good balance between realism and fun.

There's a game at disneyquest where you swing a stick around and, inside your vr helmet, your lightsaberalike moves exactly as you move your hand. But to kill enemies all you have to do is hit them...you don't have to know anything about sword fighting. Maybe not any more intuitve than pushing a button, but certainly a lot more fun.

And I think a gyro COULD make certain things more intuitve. If someone wanted to make a game revolving around realistic sword fighting, swinging a gyro might be more intuitve than learning button combinations. What you're saying is that putting realistic sword fighting in a game in the first place might make the game less intuitve , which I'd agree with. But, if a designer wanted a game where you can do more complex things, like controlling a sword, piloting a plane, commanding an army, or looking around in first person mode, a gyro might make those things easier.  

[edit]
"You still hit the button to swing your sword.  The gyroscopic control would more likely be used to control movement or camera."

I'm still not entirely convinced that titlting would be better for movement than an analog stick (unless you're playing super monkey ball or something). I guess if the feedback is good enough, it would work. Though I doubt it would be as precise.  

[nemo_83]

Let us assume someone was playing on one end of the line with a traditional controller.  Better yet one of the controllers from either the 360 or PS3.  The other person is using a REV controller with either gyros or haptics along with most traditional button functions on the controller (I'll post some more concepts later tonite most likely).  Lets us say the person with the 360 pad though is a person in Japan who is a master at kicking ass and he has been doing it for twenty years with these button pads.  We'll say the game is Soul Calibur 3, since its the best sword fighting series.  So the person with the 360 is faced with a list of moves that he can put together to create other moves and combos.  He swings at the person using the REV controller and the guy using the REV controller spins his sword throwing the other guy's sword out of the ring and then he cuts off the 360 user's head off.  That is about how things would go.  It would be like the best robot warrior ever made going against Anakin Skywalker.  The robot to say the least is fucked.

Blocking could be done in real time or programmed for a button or to be automatic.  It all depends on how good you are yet.

What all this brings to us is a real revolution.  It is like the difference between drawing with your hand planted on the canvas and painting with a long caligraphy brush with your entire arm and body at a distance from the canvas.  Sword fighting and painting have a lot in common.  

As far as how a gyro works, it is very simple.  It is like how if they do a special effect in a movie.  If someone is being filmed in front of a blue screen in a space ship the ship will have three guys controlling it.  Each guy would be controlling a seperate aspect of the special effect.  One guy would control the tilting left to right.  One guy would control the tilting forward and backwards.  And one guy would control the turning left to right.  The gyro allows for you to control all three of those with one hand and you can do it in 3D space inside a virtual world.  With a tilt sensor you are only able to tilt it.  A gyro is spinning so it can be used like a floating trackball inside the controller that you never have to manuver with your thumb.  A trackball is okay to use if you are using it like a mouse rolling it alone up, down, left, and right; but a trackball is hard to spin with your thumb.  A gyro is already spinning and delivers resistance.

What really matters though is how they use it.  One gyro in one two handed controller, two gyros in a one handed controller that can seperate into two, a single gyro in a vr helmet, gyros used with haptics, muliple gyros inside each handle of the controller, etc.  Sony and MS probably know what technology Nintendo is going to use, but they don't know how they will use it and neither do most developers.

"Maybe this would cheer some people up. In the Gamespot interview with Reggie, Reggie stated that the Rev controller is so designed you can perfectly play NES, SNES, N64 and Cube games with it. So it is capable of controlling traditional gamedesign"  I was going to bring that up.  It can't be that hard to put traditional button functions onto the REV controller.  But I am mainly concerned about whether or not I will also be able to use the revolutionary aspect to control these old games a bit more abstractly.  That would be called replay value.  

[MarioAllStar]

I believe the top two candidates are motion-sensory and force feedback. I'm hoping it's force feedback--not too different, no learning curve, but more realism. As long as the force isn't too strong I don't think we need to worry about carpal tunnel syndrome or any other health concerns.

If Nintendo takes the route of gyroscopes, I hope it is only for tilting. To use Ian's example, I don't want to get tired when I'm playing Zelda from swinging my arm the enire time. The only way I could see it being beneficial to the game experience is to control the camera, as some one has pointed out.

Also, I'm really glad it's not so radical that it can't play traditional games.

[jasonditz]

Personally I find the prospect of having actual online sword duels using gyroscopic controllers pretty exciting.

Obviously for a single player mode such a game needs to start very easy and have mutliple difficulty settings so its not totally offputting to someone that sucks at it.

[nickmitch]

That idea could bring back my school's fencing team.

[Pale]

Yeah, I was victimi to picturing people flailing arms around, but that definately won't be what its like...  Grab a controller and hold it... Now move it around only with yours wrists...Gyroscopes are that sensitive...it only takes very slight movements to register.

[trip1eX]

I just had a frickin brainstorm.  And I think I put two and two together.  

Here's my theory...  

The new Revolution controller and Nintendo's way-back backwards compatibility next gen are no coincidence.
  You will be able to play the old games a new way!!!  

[RABicle]

Quote
If Nintendo takes the route of gyroscopes, I hope it is only for tilting. To use Ian's example, I don't want to get tired when I'm playing Zelda from swinging my arm the enire time. The only way I could see it being beneficial to the game experience is to control the camera, as some one has pointed out.

To all the people who are thinking along this route, don't you realise that a gyroscope can't pick up movements along a hozrizontal (or vertical for that amtter) plane? The gyro has to be tilted.

[nemo_83]

If you have a gyro inside the device for every joint in your arm, three that is, then you can plausibly raise the sword over the character's head and anything else you can do with your arms.  As you move your wrist slightly only one gyro detects the movement, but as you continue to move it further the other gyros start sending information to the console telling it that the next joint in the arm has been bent and so forth.  

Though gyros may be able to do the input work of a haptic arm all inside the controller they cannot create the same surgicaly precise force feedback that haptics can.  

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: RABicle

Quote
If Nintendo takes the route of gyroscopes, I hope it is only for tilting. To use Ian's example, I don't want to get tired when I'm playing Zelda from swinging my arm the enire time. The only way I could see it being beneficial to the game experience is to control the camera, as some one has pointed out.

To all the people who are thinking along this route, don't you realise that a gyroscope can't pick up movements along a hozrizontal (or vertical for that amtter) plane? The gyro has to be tilted.

And most of the moves required for a decent sword-fighting sim are in the wrist, thus tilt would be what it needs to be able to read.

But if Nintendo did have an idea that required being able to read vertical motion for example, there are plenty of ways to accomplish this.

[nemo_83]

Actually all this talk about just using the wrist is what is going to lead to carpel tunnel syndrome.  The point of being able to use the controller like a sword is because you are going to get your best performance from making broad strokes.  On a small scale, if there were only one gyro, you could just use your wrist but still you find it best to actually involve your arms and body in this.  It will make gaming fun again.

[Rellik]

So basically, what you're suggesting, nemo_83, is a suit with embedded gyroscopes?  Not a whole-body suit, obviously, but more like a sleeve.

I would be extremely skeptical of this kind of controller being reasonable.  It's an intriguing idea for the future, like flying cars and such, but the fact remains that the Revolution is supposed to be MORE accessable to people.  An object that people can pick up and drive like a steering wheel or a bike is intuitive - a sleeve you have to configure and fit on and then dance around wildly is a fun idea but ultimately much less accessable.

The gyroscopic-tilt system should be more accurate than the analog joystick type system that we use today.  Of course, both will be available - it would be stupid to eliminate the analog stick completely from the controller.  Remember, gyroscope is not the same as Tilt'n'Tumble style - it's far more accurate and "solid" feeling, since it has (variable) resistance to change.

[pudu]

Below is another excerpt from Reggie talking about the Rev's controller:

“…we have not unveiled our controller…once that comes out it’s really going to help frame in total how we’re driving the innovative story.”

“We announced the ability to download and play the best NES games, SNES games, N64 games, in addition to Revolution games and Gamecube games.  If you put those controllers all lined up together they’re all very different.  So think about what kind of device is going to allow you to play all those different types of games?”

-Quote taken from G4Tv’s E3 2005 Reggie Fils-Aime Interview I got from IGN (link)

What is strange to me is why they would include cube controller ports if it can do a good job of controlling cube games supposedly.  One guess is it has a D pad and buttons to sufficiently control NES and SNES games but it doesn't have an analogue stick in favor of some other form of control mechanism.  This would be why they are offering the option of using gamecube controllers so you could use their analogue sticks.

[nemo_83]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/nemo_83/stick.jpg

Basically the same mechanic I used earlier with the trackball button surrounded by a wheel with three flat round rotatable disk buttons.  Also a floating analog stick to the side.  Not pictured, the trigger wheels, middle finger z buttons, optional cord jack, or internal gyros.

Now though I made half the controller a haptic flight stick which could be detached and each handle could be used specifically for it's internal gyro.

[anubis6789]

I like the way Rellik explains the gyroscope idea, but one problem keeps poping up in my head, the issue of centering.

I am sure we have all ran into the problem of what happens when an analog sticks is pushed in a direction upon start up of the system, if you don't properly calibrate a light gun, or properly calibrate the DS screen. How will the gyro device find its center? Will it self center or will the player decide what center is?

Which brings up another problem, comfort. Try holding a controller and twisting it around, front back,side to side, and see how easy or hard it is to hold it in that position, or press buttons in that position. Comfort really does not become a problem until you reach your wrist's extremes, but what if a game called for you to do so? What if the center, if decided for you, is unintuitive and unnatrual in feeling to the player?

This is all assumeing that there is a gyro in the REV's controller. It also does not take into account the fact that Nintendo is usually very good at picking out these kind of bugs and making a new control system intuitive. I am just playing around with the idea in my head and these were somethings that came to mind.

*EDIT: added my question about the comfort of the center.*

[jasonditz]

I'd assume a configurable center. There's no good reason not to do it.

Actually though as I think more about it, you could probably do just as efficient a sword-fighting sim with a collapsable plastic sword and something like an updated version of the old Broderbund U-force

[Rellik]

The centering question is a good one.  Lots of little details and feasibility and comfort issues come into play when designing a new type of control - it's all part of the testing and development process.  At some point, it stops becoming fun to speculate because you start getting into the work of actually designing the controller I'd say leave it to Nintendo to make the controller comfortable and come up with a good calibration scheme - that's not our job!

I think we can assume most of the smaller issues can be dealt with via good design and good planning - IF Nintendo is actually going for a gyroscopic controller.  Since we don't know, I don't see any reason to speculate beyond general application and applicability.

Although I will say this: Nintendo has experience with comfort and calibration in designing their Tilt'n'Tumble and Twisted systems, so I don't think it would be an issue they couldn't get around.

Ok, I said I wouldn't speculate, but I am.  The controller could use a gravity sensor (a tiny hanging pendulum) to know which way "down" is, and calibrate the gyroscope off of that absolute reference [assumably the Revolution is not meant to be played in outer space...]

[nemo_83]

Speaking on the subject of the Revolution in an interview yesterday, Nintendo's President, Satoru Iwata, told Reuters that "We plan to give details on when we will launch it, what the price will be, what the controller will look like and how games can be played on it by the end of the year."

Iwata then reiterated Nintendo's position on making games simpler and more appealing to a wider audience. "Right now, game consoles are important for the game fan, but for the rest of the family, it's just a piece of nuisance that's loud and eats up electricity... We want to create games for people who haven't played games but are curious about them."

He also stated that the Game Boy Micro would be an addition to the Game Boy Advanced, not a replacement and that the pricing for the Revolution's download game service had yet to be decided. But said that Nintendo could charge per game, sell pre-paid cards in stores or possibly give games away for promotions.

Source: Reuters


has anyone posted this?