Topic: Jimmy Page and Jack White Dismiss Music Games

[UltimatePartyBear]

I guess you didn't read the part of my post where I say it's important to have a teacher that makes music fun.  My first song was Frere Jacques.  After a few years of getting nowhere playing little baby music I switched guitar teachers.  First song I learned from him?  Knockin' on Heaven's Door.  That when it all really started for me.  A good teacher teaching you music you actually want to play makes all the difference.

I wasn't replying to you, but you also said stuff about talent, and you just now said you spent years on the baby music before you switched.  You're not helping your own case.

[EasyCure]

Rogue squadron isn't as good as flying a real X-wing, and which would you honestly rather do?  I'd rather fly a real X-wing, but that's an impossibility.  Wouldn't you rather play a real guitar? 

Some people like instant gratification and, I'm not saying UPB is one of these people by the way, playing a real guitar just won't cut it. I love how many of us here are musicians (in one way or another) because when something like this comes up, we all have our different views on the subject.

By the way, i use "we" because, for the record and the sake of this thread, yes I play guitar (and now drums!). So in case you thought my view on the subject didn't matter, well now you know!

Anyway, I've come to realize music is very subjective and very personal, so there is no right and wrong here. I wasn't always this way, unfortunately. I used to be very biased and stuck to only certain genres of music but thankfully i grew out of that and began to appreciate all music. When I see artists make comments like these two have, i simply ignore it. Plain and simple. It just doesn't affect me much because I have my own view.

Like Ian, I had a problem with the new fad that came about with these rythm games and kids thinking they were suddenly real guitarist (or competent enough to become real guitarist) simply because they could beat certain tracks on expert. In time I let it stop bothering me because, well lifes too short and I know one day these little "posers" would either outgrow the fad on their own or be embarrassed by a real musican hehe.

My views changed when I noticed younger family members were recognizing music I'd play as songs from these games and it just felt good to be able to connect with them on something i'm passionate about. I guess you can say I'm more in the "whatever opens someones mind to 'new' music (new for them) is a good thing" camp. Sure, like everything else you'll have people who'll only skim the surface and won't go deeper; ya know, the kind to download that one song from itunes and its his/her flavor of the week.. but hey, you just might get some people who'll be turned on to an artist or genre found in these games and dig a lil deeper. The kid who'll go from liking Rolling Stone's "Paint It Black" to owning their discography, to picking up guitar/bass/drums, to starting his own band and who knows what'll happen from there.

With so many schools cutting funding from music programs, and how much worse commercial pop music is getting today, do we really want the MTV's and mainstream radio being the only venue for people to go for music? Scary thought..

[MegaByte]

Um, but Led Zeppelin doesn't have any songs in Guitar Hero or Rock Band.

You're right.  Well it was another band from the 70s then.

[Stratos]

Um, but Led Zeppelin doesn't have any songs in Guitar Hero or Rock Band.

You're right.  Well it was another band from the 70s then.

But anyone who has become a fan of the game will hear how Led Zeppelin is the most requested band and also most likely the least likeley to cave regerding letting their music on the games. People pick it up through osmosis and then are curious to see what the fuss is about. Then they understand how awesome the band is and add to the clamor of fans wanting them in the game.

[UltimatePartyBear]

(I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to dominate the conversation, but I really like this discussion.)

Some people like instant gratification and, I'm not saying UPB is one of these people by the way, playing a real guitar just won't cut it.

I really, truly don't see the two as comparable.  Guitar Hero isn't a game about playing the guitar.  It's a game about rock music.  So it isn't a matter of instant gratification vs. hard work and perseverance.  I don't choose Guitar Hero over learning to play the guitar for real.  I choose to play Guitar Hero because it's fun and I choose not to learn to play the guitar because it's not fun.  That's two separate choices.  I even made the latter choice a long time before Guitar Hero existed, though I admit the game did make me briefly reconsider.

When I see artists make comments like these two have, i simply ignore it. Plain and simple. It just doesn't affect me much because I have my own view.

I have to add my agreement here.  I respect Jimmy Page a lot for his musical genius, but I wouldn't ask him for, say, stock tips.  While his fame and talent make his opinion of music games more newsworthy than most, it isn't necessarily any more valid or informed than this guy's.

Like Ian, I had a problem with the new fad that came about with these rythm games and kids thinking they were suddenly real guitarist (or competent enough to become real guitarist) simply because they could beat certain tracks on expert.

I really never saw this happening (outside of that South Park episode).  I'm sure it must have been annoying, but I can't believe anyone would seriously think playing Guitar Hero had anything to do with real musical skill.  I have to wonder if some of them were just joking around.  I know I typically ask my friend if he wants to play by talking about "getting the band back together," for example.  I've also considered getting a stand for my guitar controllers simply to have somewhere to put them where they wouldn't get sat on, though I couldn't justify spending the money on one in the end.

But, hey, if they really were serious, they're probably the same people I always want to slap some sense into when I meet them just in general.

[D_Average]

I picked up guitar in middle school and hated it trying to learn basic chords without connecting them to a real song.  Then, 4 years later, I went over to a buddy's who had an amazing slick green electric Carvin and he played the intro to "Today" by the Pumpkins.  I couldn't believe how easy it was.  I was instantly hooked.  Made him teach it to me that night and then sold my N64 and all its games to buy a decent Epiphone and Crappy a$$ Crate amp.  Started a band two months later and was jumping around like Mcfly playing shows.

Now, I'm slowly buying those N64 games back via the VC, funny how it goes....

[blackfootsteps]

Led Zep are one of the stingiest bands when it comes to licensing songs (and not just for video games), so Page's comments don't really surprise me.  I spend 10:1 time playing my real guitars compared to GH. It's feels like a fantastic achievement to learn pieces of songs and then get it all gelling together beautifully (or shabbily but I'll take what I can get!). Getting 4 stars in GH doesn't quite have the same feeing.

The Today intro is so much easier on an electric compared to an acoustic without a cutaway!

[Morari]

You can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.

Yes, yes you can. Rarely do these games contain anything even close to the obscure. If the music wasn't popular to some degree or another, it wouldn't sell the game. You'd still be playing lame J-Pop music games if that were the case.

[D_Average]

The Today intro is so much easier on an electric compared to an acoustic without a cutaway!

No doubt.  And not as rewarding, unless you have it hooked up to a reverb pedal.  But the song itself does lend itself decently to an acoustic cover.

[Nick DiMola]

You can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.

Yes, yes you can. Rarely do these games contain anything even close to the obscure. If the music wasn't popular to some degree or another, it wouldn't sell the game. You'd still be playing lame J-Pop music games if that were the case.

Let's put it this way. Many of these songs are rarely heard on the radio because they are so old. The crowd who is typically playing these games are more than likely not familiar with a number of the artists/songs featured across all the titles.

[broodwars]

You can't simply turn on the radio and expect to hear many of the songs featured in these games.

Yes, yes you can. Rarely do these games contain anything even close to the obscure. If the music wasn't popular to some degree or another, it wouldn't sell the game. You'd still be playing lame J-Pop music games if that were the case.

Let's put it this way. Many of these songs are rarely heard on the radio because they are so old. The crowd who is typically playing these games are more than likely not familiar with a number of the artists/songs featured across all the titles.

That's why I haven't gotten into the games: none of them have music from bands I care about.  Whenever Nintendo gets into the act with some music games featuring Nintendo music exclusively is probably when I'll get into them.

*glares at anyone who dares to mention the WM word*

[Armak88]

Wow, there is a lot I could say about this. First off, I play guitar, and have for quite some time. I can play most of the songs that are on guitar hero, and could before the games came out. I don't enjoy the games myself, because I find them frustrating, but I've played them with friends before and had a good time.

First, I'm surprised at the uproar over these two comments. I mean, two talented musicians basically saying that GH is just a game.... is this something to be surprised or upset about? Sure it's good that these games are creating awareness of a wider array of music, but isn't it sad that a video game that doesn't actually teach you very much about music at all is the most effective tool we seem to have? That just seems to be the tone of these guy's comments. And Brandogg, I don't think that Jimmy Page can be over rated. I know that everybody has already gushed all over him, but really, the man is undeniably incredible.

Second, does anybody remember Tony Hawk Proskater 2? Or how about the skateboarding fad as a whole? Music is constantly being tied to social events, so why not gaming? I probably wouldn't be a fan of Lagwagon without the appearance of May 16th in Tony hawk.

In conclusion, I think that there are much greater tragedies in the modern world of music to be concerned about... like the death of the album, the lack of talent, the over-production or lady gaga. But seeing as this is a videogame board, here we are.

[Deguello]

I comment as a person that mostly likes video game soundtracks, and not part of the music scene or fandom.

But I wonder, do these guys have any problem with their music being in movie soundtracks?  Would that taint the musical ideals they hold so dear?  Would a kid playing Immigrant Song in Guitar Hero or Rock Band be worse than hearing it in Shrek 3?  Aren't they getting money either way?  Aren't they making everybody happy (well maybe not the kids.  Shrek sucks.)?  From where does this snooty snobbery come?

And also, extra lulz for insinuating all Guitar Hero/Rock Band players are the tiniest of tiny babies.  Guess they aren't "hardcore" enough, eh?  Kinda puts some things in perspective, doesn't it?

[vudu]

What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)?  Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only?  It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.

I used to play Soccer.  You don't hear me complaining about FIFA or ProEvo.

I don't often see football players complain that playing a season of Madden isn't a suitable replacement for the real thing (no ****!).

Race car drivers don't bitch that Mario Kart and NFS are "cheapening" their profession.

Ninja Assassins don't spend their time decrying Tenchu.

[King of Twitch]

Maybe they don't have a Wii in the senior center where they live?

[Ian Sane]

you just now said you spent years on the baby music before you switched.  You're not helping your own case.

The years playing baby music was largely unnecessary.  I was so disinterested that when I started with the new teacher I was more or less starting from scratch.  I could have just skipped the baby music years in general.

But I wonder, do these guys have any problem with their music being in movie soundtracks?  Would that taint the musical ideals they hold so dear?  Would a kid playing Immigrant Song in Guitar Hero or Rock Band be worse than hearing it in Shrek 3?  Aren't they getting money either way?  Aren't they making everybody happy (well maybe not the kids.  Shrek sucks.)?  From where does this snooty snobbery come?

I wonder if the difference, in their mind anyway, is the interaction that videogames provide.  Just hearing a song in the background and "playing" a song in a videogame with a fake guitar are pretty different.  These games now provide a way to fake jam.  It's like air guitar taken to a new level.  In the past if you wanted to experience the feeling of being in a band you had to do it for real.  Now that experience is available to everyone in a watered down form.  I can see why legitimate musicians would not like that.

Is Immigrant Song actually in Shrek 3?  I've never seen it.

I personally would love to have my song in one of these games just for the sheer exposure of it.  Same with an iPod ad.  When I was a teen I would have considered using my music in ANY ad as selling out.  But now I see the value of the exposure it provides.  It's not just about money but getting the music out there so that more people hear it.  And if you can make a living with music you can dedicate more time to it because you don't have to work another job to feed yourself.  Money allows you to do music full time.  Fame allows your music to be heard by more people.  They should be tools, not goals.  My principle is that I make music I enjoy.  I would only consider myself a sellout if I was writing songs I didn't like and appearing on TV to shill an album I hated.

[vudu]

Is Immigrant Song actually in Shrek 3?  I've never seen it.

The song is also one of the few Led Zeppelin songs to have been licensed for a film. For the 2003 film School of Rock, actor Jack Black filmed himself on stage, along with thousands of screaming fans, begging Led Zeppelin to let them use "Immigrant Song". The song also appears, in a slightly changed version due to licensing reasons, in Shrek the Third, when Snow White attacks the city gates, guarded by Huorns. She cries the characteristic war cry of Robert Plant, backed by the riff, as in the beginning of the original song.

Source

[UltimatePartyBear]

First, I'm surprised at the uproar over these two comments. I mean, two talented musicians basically saying that GH is just a game.... is this something to be surprised or upset about? Sure it's good that these games are creating awareness of a wider array of music, but isn't it sad that a video game that doesn't actually teach you very much about music at all is the most effective tool we seem to have?

Since when do we expect video games to teach us anything?  It's not a tool.  It's a game.  I guess with some creativity, maybe it could be used as a tool to teach "music" (whatever that means), kind of like how you can use a shoe to pound a nail, but at least I don't have to listen to a carpenter whine about his "art" when I do that.

I wonder if the difference, in their mind anyway, is the interaction that videogames provide.  Just hearing a song in the background and "playing" a song in a videogame with a fake guitar are pretty different.

It is different, but I can't conceive how it could be seen as worse (unless maybe they heard how much I abuse the whammy bar in those games).  At least when I'm playing a song in GH (on a tangent, there's no more need for the quotes here than when we talk about playing a level in Super Mario Bros. -- a song is just a level in GH, and we play them), my attention is focused on the music.  I'm far more likely to appreciate the artistry and take something away from it than I am if it's playing in the background while I shoot an alien.

(I don't mean that as a dig against video game music, by the way.  I'm a big fan.)

[rbtr]

What's your hobby (outside of gaming) and how would you feel to see it stripped down to its most basic component(IN the case of guitar hero and the like, rhythm)?  Would it really be the same when other people experience the most basic component only?  It's the difference between fresh squeezed orange juice and orange soda.

I used to play Soccer.  You don't hear me complaining about FIFA or ProEvo.

I don't often see football players complain that playing a season of Madden isn't a suitable replacement for the real thing (no ****!).

Race car drivers don't bitch that Mario Kart and NFS are "cheapening" their profession.

Ninja Assassins don't spend their time decrying Tenchu.

Well, I'd say the big difference here is that music isn't a sport, it's an art.  Music is one of the things that gives us "culture".  I think rhythm games cheapen the experience in a similar way to paint by numbers.  Like Ian Sane has said though, we're past the point where people are claiming that its anywhere near the same.

I just hate seeing my little brother play Guitar hero, while his real guitar sits in the corner neglected.  It's important to get people (kids especially) into music, but more important to get them into making music.  I think that Nintendo's efforts at games like this are more in line with that.  Mario Paint wasn't a paint by numbers, you had to create, it was a free canvas.  Wii Music lets you improvise, let's you change the tempo, let's you make the music your own to a point.  If people don't get interested in making music, then new music doesn't get made.

But yeah, guitar hero is just a game.  I don't expect it to change the world.  But just as WoW can destroy some people's lives, Guitar Hero (and rock band) could destroy young future musicians.

[NWR_insanolord]

Not only have I been introduced to songs and artists that I really love because of Guitar Hero and Rock Band, I've also gained appreciation for songs that I already knew (I know I wouldn't like Go Your Own Way by Fleetwood Mac nearly as much if I hadn't played it on the drums on Rock Band). I listen more closely to all songs I hear now because of the games, and I can safely say that I wouldn't be as much of a music fan as I am if not for these games.

[Stratos]

I like your points, Rbtr.

Playing GH/RB has given me exposure and appreciation for music I would have otherwise not heard or given much time. It also motivates me to learn versions of these songs on my real guitar. The key here I think is balance. Should a kid stay inside all day and play WiiSports while neglecting going outside and playing the sports in real life? I think parents should ancourage balance between the two in children.

[Rize]

haha, just wanted to say that I'm one of the drummers in the world that can play Good Times Bad Times.  I had to study the beat and write it down since it's so complicated (most of Bonham's stuff is like that).  Once I have the beat on paper, it's generally a lot easier to play actually.  My band will be covering the song at our first gig in a couple months.

It's also funny he should say this since GH/RB drumming is the closest thing to the real instrument (although still very far since there is no feedback for how hard you hit the drum head).