Author Topic: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"  (Read 13712 times)

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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2010, 10:20:11 PM »
So much hate. I don't understand. The guy's only human!
I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people who are lashing out probably don't have kids, and are sympathizing with his children rather than with the man himself. Raising a child is one of the toughest jobs out there, and each one is different, so there are no easy answers. That said, I still can't get over the 30 minutes a week thing. I hope that changes when they're older.

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2010, 01:32:33 AM »
He's dumb because he mentions stuff like microphones and unnecessary attachments, and rechargeable batteries ($30, seriously?), none of which are actual "hidden costs," but rather "optional purchases that in to way, shape or form add to the initial cost of the console." No one is angry because he did what he did, we're angry because he wrote a misleading article. That's like saying you bought and iPod, but after realizing that you "have to buy" a car charger, cradle, iTunes music, etc., that you returned it because of the "hidden costs."
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2010, 01:52:06 AM »
What Brandogg said.

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2010, 02:10:29 AM »
He's dumb because he mentions stuff like microphones and unnecessary attachments, and rechargeable batteries ($30, seriously?), none of which are actual "hidden costs," but rather "optional purchases that in to way, shape or form add to the initial cost of the console." No one is angry because he did what he did, we're angry because he wrote a misleading article. That's like saying you bought and iPod, but after realizing that you "have to buy" a car charger, cradle, iTunes music, etc., that you returned it because of the "hidden costs."

QFT.

That's hitting the nail squarely on the head. The problem here is people reading this article who don't know better are going to be misled by it and deceived. The Wii is actually the most affordable console out there, but by reading this people are going to be led to believe the exact opposite.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2010, 02:14:42 AM »
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Oddly enough, there is debate within the comments about the fact the many consoles do have hidden costs, and whether that’s to be expected or whether it’s a sneaky, price-gouging stunt.

In the column, I acknowledged that I blew it by not doing my research beforehand. That was picked up by some commenters, but not many. As far as expense, at the end of the day, let’s have a reality check: A video game console is a luxury, not a necessity. If my kids are happy playing free games online, well, that’s still cheaper than any money I’d pay for a game console.

But beyond that, it’s clear most of these commenters can’t seem to conceive of a world where everyone doesn’t play video games all day long. Or that there might be any consequences to that lifestyle. Like I said in the column, I’m not anti-video games. We let our kids play them (though apparently we’re torturing them by limiting that to 30 minutes a week!). And we will probably get a Wii next year. I’m especially excited about the recent deal with Netflix to stream movies on the Wii, since I’m a big fan of Netflix.

It's this bit here that really gets to me.  This is where he undermines his intelligence, his talking points in both writings, and his apology.

To begin with, he's surprised that a major point he wrote about, the "hidden costs" of a gaming console, was discussed in a comments section that contained over eight hundred posts.  The hidden costs idea is a major point of contention for the man, as he originally pointed out, so shouldn't it be no surprise that it would play a part in any discussion of the article?  Is it that he's surprised any habitual video game player could take his side, or at least look at the matter at hand objectively?  Either he's a little slow, or I'm personally offended, and honestly, I'd like to believe the former over the latter.

If you've read this new article, you can see his main talking point is a little bit different from last time:  His main concern seems to be the length of time children spend in front of a TV screen or a computer monitor.  Of course, it's understandable that people need to monitor their children's playing time.  That's good parenting, and advocating this position certainly isn't a bad thing.  However, this isn't an excuse, and he's using it as one.  The fact of the matter is, he has a system already:  Thirty minutes playing computer/video games per week.  He's created that system, and is currently using it.  How, if he already has a stern rule on game usage, can he have a panic attack about a decision he stands firmly by?  It's nonsense.  Using this as an excuse just contradicts every problem aside from price he originally talks about.

Which brings me to the third issue:  While he's giving a half-hearted apology/justifying his actions, how does he conclude?  He writes that he wants the Wii so he can use it himself, since he knows Netflix will be available on it.  Not normally a big deal, but given the context, with the reasoning that playing games for half an hour a week is the limit for his kids, and more often this type of entertainment should be limited, choosing to watch movies just doesn't cut it as a better way to spend your time.  At least a video game can be a stimulating learning utility.  Very few interesting movies offer any sort of benefit, except for the satisfaction one gains by watching.  To say people play too many games, then say you want to watch movies, that's just disrespectful.  I completely understand he was trying to level with us, and gamers in general, but doesn't anyone see the lame contradiction here?  Wouldn't he be better served having an "Electronic Media" limit, so he and his children don't rot their brains watching other things?

I had to leave in the middle of writing this, so it might seem disjointed.  If it does, sue me.  It makes good, reasonable points, though.  At least I think it does.  Anyone want to post this on his SUPER blog?

Offline Stratos

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2010, 02:45:56 AM »
I think it makes sense. And I was actually considering posting it in his blog before I read the part where you asked. It would be interesting to see his response to it.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2010, 04:46:34 AM »
You can if you want, but clean it up so it's to him, and not for the general reader.  I wouldn't mind.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2010, 01:41:11 PM »
I didn't really think about it before, but you're right. Why is he so surprised by the amount of comments? What kind of reactions did he expect? The follow-up really makes it sound like he does have something against videogames, especially with the assumption that the people who commented "play video games all day long".

Offline Kairon

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2010, 03:20:20 PM »
I think everything is getting blown out of proportion and we're letting minor wordchoices, assumptions, and emotions get in our way. The author is clearly not an educated gamer. He intends to buy a Wii, but he's still struggling through how to handle video games, how to think about them, and how  to approach them as media and/or entertainment. Like I said before, no one is perfect,and with so many experts in the game industry proven wrong time and time again, it's hardly fair to expect a relative newbie to the field to not trip up on his first attempt.

There are definitely things he says that causes gamer's ears to pinprick, but these are most likely said because of ignorance and carelessness, not a real intent on malice. Similarly, the vehement internet response is probably being misinterpreted as a hive-like defense reaction, instead of as a people dismayed that their beloved pastime and hobby is being misconstrued and misinterpreted in a one-sided manner on a public forum.

I still stress tolerance and understanding. I don't expect 100% agreement, but there has to be common ground on which to move forward here. I like the fact that the author still intends to buy a Wii. Whether it's for his kids, or for Netflix, or both, convincing him to put a console in his house is the first step to changing his opinions and subconscious preconceptions about videogames. Sure, he's said some things now that sting, but the best way to correct the misconceptions he's perpetuating is to encourage him to work past his current misgivings, educate him on what the Wii and videogames in general has to offer him and his family, and see him become a part of our sector of the gaming industry.

The reason I want civil, and friendly, dialogue on this issue is because I want videogames to show the world, one consumer at a time, that everyone and anyone can be a gamer, no matter what their thoughts on the "Gaming Ghetto" was before.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 03:35:56 PM »
The reason I want civil, and friendly, dialogue on this issue is because I want videogames to show the world, one consumer at a time, that everyone and anyone can be a gamer, no matter what their thoughts on the "Gaming Ghetto" was before.

Isn't that what ruined gaming though? It was just fine until it became popular!
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2010, 03:42:24 PM »
No compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.

Offline Kairon

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2010, 03:50:12 PM »
Isn't that what ruined gaming though? It was just fine until it became popular!

Nintendo's been claiming that they make games for everyone aged 2 to 92 since the early days, if I recall my old copies of Nintendo power correctly. What's ruining gaming is forgetting the real history and real values that Nintendo has championed ever since the beginning.

No compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.

Agreed. I will never abandon the values of tolerance, inclusiveness, and fun for all that Nintendo taught me as a kid. &P
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 03:54:02 PM by Kairon »
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2010, 04:17:15 PM »
I want to write an online article called Two Plus Two Equals Five. Please encourage me in this endeavour.

Offline Kairon

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2010, 04:23:36 PM »
I want to write an online article called Two Plus Two Equals Five. Please encourage me in this endeavour.

I encourage you to pick up a copy of Brain Age. &P
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
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For never was a story of more woe
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2010, 04:24:56 PM »
No compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.

Spoken like a true Internet forum poster.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2010, 05:09:16 PM »
I think everything is getting blown out of proportion and we're letting minor wordchoices, assumptions, and emotions get in our way. The author is clearly not an educated gamer. He intends to buy a Wii, but he's still struggling through how to handle video games, how to think about them, and how  to approach them as media and/or entertainment. Like I said before, no one is perfect,and with so many experts in the game industry proven wrong time and time again, it's hardly fair to expect a relative newbie to the field to not trip up on his first attempt.

There are definitely things he says that causes gamer's ears to pinprick, but these are most likely said because of ignorance and carelessness, not a real intent on malice. Similarly, the vehement internet response is probably being misinterpreted as a hive-like defense reaction, instead of as a people dismayed that their beloved pastime and hobby is being misconstrued and misinterpreted in a one-sided manner on a public forum.

I still stress tolerance and understanding. I don't expect 100% agreement, but there has to be common ground on which to move forward here. I like the fact that the author still intends to buy a Wii. Whether it's for his kids, or for Netflix, or both, convincing him to put a console in his house is the first step to changing his opinions and subconscious preconceptions about videogames. Sure, he's said some things now that sting, but the best way to correct the misconceptions he's perpetuating is to encourage him to work past his current misgivings, educate him on what the Wii and videogames in general has to offer him and his family, and see him become a part of our sector of the gaming industry.

The reason I want civil, and friendly, dialogue on this issue is because I want videogames to show the world, one consumer at a time, that everyone and anyone can be a gamer, no matter what their thoughts on the "Gaming Ghetto" was before.

He's already figured out how to handle games with his children, though, Kairon.  We want a fair opportunity for video games to be experienced by everyone, too.

My issue is that his article doesn't support oppenness to gaming.  It's written to inspire doubt in the mind of the reader who's already thought everything through.  Everyone knows when you buy a DVD player, unless it says otherwise, it doesn't come with any movies to watch.  They know you have to replace the batteries in the remote from time to time.  At this point in time, it's a fact that we can take for granted is general knowledge.  So why act surprised when this is the same for video games?  Why misquote the price of the accessories you chose to buy, in the firstplace?

Beyond that, though, his response was certainly an underhanded attempt to "get the last word" against hundreds of anonymous commenters.  There's just too many instances of occurrences that lead to this:

Quote
That sounded perfectly legit to me. But to those in the gaming community, well, let’s just say that it’s nothing short of pure heresy.

Quote
Fortunately, as the thread wore on, and I responded to some of the comments, the tone shifted and an interesting conversation emerged about the legitimate issues about how much exposure to video games and media is healthy.

In this perspective, we're lead to believe that every video gamer is prone to completely irrational outbursts, and thanks to Mr. O'brien here, gamers in general were able to get things back together and be reasonable, well-thought discussion makers.

Quote
The tone of the post is pretty neutral. The comments are not, most of which are from folks who naturally didn’t bother to read the column itself (surprise!).

Now, if you read his cited examples from the comments, yes, the commenters do insult the reporter, but it is certainly unclear that anyone he refers to did not read the column.  He infers such a thing is true of one comment, but doesn't even allow the possibility that said commenter could doubt the truthfulness of the article, and dismiss certain parts of it, which isn't a great thing to do, but is clearly being recreated to the same extent in this response column.

Quote
Fortunately, there were some voices of sanity:

Luckily, he didn't have to intervene with the Kotaku comments for tranquility and logic to return.  Still, his exaggerated remarks about gamers' reactions to his original story seem a bit less credible, since he's pointed out instances where his broad opening statement has been untrue.

Quote
Oddly enough, there is debate within the comments about the fact the many consoles do have hidden costs, and whether that’s to be expected or whether it’s a sneaky, price-gouging stunt.

Once again, he underestimates the commenters he's decided are completely against him, and shows his surprise that there was general interest in the gaming community about points he made in the article.

Quote
But beyond that, it’s clear most of these commenters can’t seem to conceive of a world where everyone doesn’t play video games all day long. Or that there might be any consequences to that lifestyle. Like I said in the column, I’m not anti-video games

Who's said anything, anything at all, about playing video games all day long?  There are a few people saying that 30 minutes a week isn't very much, yes, but very few, or even none, have made any assertion here.  This is another exaggeration meant to berate and demean "pro" video game commenters.  Every gamer I talk to in person agrees moderation is needed.  Many I speak to on forums also agree.  I'm sure you do, too, Kairon.  How do you feel being lumped in with the assumption and exaggeration Mr. O'brien has made?

Or, if you're the exception, and I'm the exception, and your friends are the exception, and my friends are the exception, and the people here we talk to are the exception, don't you wonder who the people are that exemplify the rule?  Can they really be seen as any sort of majority?

Quote
Happily, I also got dozens of emails (and some comments) from readers who were sympathetic, from parents who took time to describe their own challenges in striking that balance. I even got a couple emails from parents who bought the Wii for Christmas and have been regretting it do the fights and stress it’s caused. One of my favorites:

Unfortunately, Mr. O'brien didn't receive anything sympathetic that was noteworthy from any gamers out there.  It closes his column up implying that video gamers are inept at developing and displaying empathy and sympathy.

Wouldn't you say he has taken any shot he can to quietly subvert the opinions of those who play video games and comment on game-related articles as a hobby?  He's attempting to play the victim role to gain support for his side, yes, but he's taken it a step forward, and decided to cement that there should be sides on this issue, and that the side opposite his is full off angry people with little logical function available.

I've already shown that there's a few loose ends to how he tells his story.  I don't believe there's anything wrong with admitting the price of entry was too high, at all.  But the costs are apparent, even if he gives out incorrect pricing information in his article.  It's electronic media standard to sell hardware and software as separate items, and it's actually the video games industry that routinely bends that standard in Mr. O'brien's favor.

Given what we know, and the selection of methods used to convey the point of a man who is trained and paid to write well, I'd say if anything, the people who disagree with this article and are angry about how what is being said is being said are the ones who want a world where gaming is accessible to anyone and everyone.  I happen to be a person who subscribes to the idea that perception is a major contributing factor to every opinion, and that usage of particular writing techniques can alter perception in a way that is favorable to whomever uses them.  It's a practice that I'm sure he was taught when he became a journalist, and it's a practice that's in use to a greater extent as time passes.  And it's this intent of deception he uses in his article that I'm angry about, because this is certainly something that will alienate people from picking up and playing games in the future.  This journalist's reaction to the original controversy was unprofessional and immature, and I'm not happy about that.

On a more minor note, anyone else surprised that there hasn't been any comments to his blog post since about this time yesterday?  I'm shocked not to see more any at all, aside from the four that were there yesterday when I read it the first time.

Offline Kairon

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2010, 05:52:01 PM »
Thatguy, I'm not arguing that the article is contains things which make me raise my eyebrows as a gamer. But like I said before, I chalk it up to ignorance, poor choice of language, carelessness, and the magnification of the internet. Especially the internet, since that explains the more barbed, defensive, and even less understanding tone of his follow-up post. Anyone knows that the first instinct on the internet when heatedly criticized by opponents is to denigrate them, whether it be by snarky word choice (bad poaster?) or otherwise.

I agree that as a journalist, he should attempt to  be above that, and given the general state of the internet, I'd say he's doing better than most. He definitely hasn't succeeded completely, but if bouts of bad internet behavior is such a sin, we are all guilty.

In the end, I don't see his posts as malicious. Insensitive, under-researched, defensive, and stained with plenty of preconceptions, yes. Indicative of the internet's power to polarize, demonize, and stigmatize without being strained through conscious, temperate thought? That too. But I still see potential to be open-minded if others can just reach out a helping hand and look past their gut reflex to swarm into a hive pattern defense.

I propose that the best way to deal with this is not to ignore the faults laid out in front of us, but acknowledge them, and work to correct them not through blanket demonization, but a realization that this man intended to buy a Wii, still intends to buy a Wii, and perhaps could use some help in doing so.

And in the end, wouldn't that turnaround of opinion, and overhauling of so many hurtful assumptions and subconscious preconceptions about gamers, be so much more productive?

Everyone knows when you buy a DVD player, unless it says otherwise, it doesn't come with any movies to watch.  They know you have to replace the batteries in the remote from time to time.  At this point in time, it's a fact that we can take for granted is general knowledge.  So why act surprised when this is the same for video games?

Well, to be fair, using batteries for controllers is relatively new for mainstream console gaming. Only this generation in fact.

Every gamer I talk to in person agrees moderation is needed.  Many I speak to on forums also agree.  I'm sure you do, too, Kairon.  How do you feel being lumped in with the assumption and exaggeration Mr. O'brien has made?

As a Nintendo fanboy, I've been generalized and lumped into so many groups so many times already. After it happening time and time again, I keenly want to be constructive in my attempts to make its happening less and less likely.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 05:55:58 PM by Kairon »
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
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For never was a story of more woe
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2010, 07:11:23 PM »
I can see where we disagree, Kairon.

I believe, given the original concept of the article, as well as the contradictions within it, that there was a certain level of sensationalism infused in the story, I decided to check out his twitter feed: http://twitter.com/sjcobrien

Without reading prior stories from this author, even the twitter feed shows he's using the Kotaku posts as a way to draw attention to himself, gain sympathy from others, and to vilify the video game commenters on the site.

Additionally, looking at the twitter feed, he's had experience with all sorts of electronic media.  He seems well researched on Net Neutrality, general silicon valley business, and even Second Life.  Given this, it's clear he's well read on matters in virtually every aspect.

I suppose what I'm saying surprises me the most is that the opportunity to do something that most readers and consumers alike would appreciate, like a beginner's buyers guide, for instance.  Instead, coming back from regretting a purchase he opted to return, he writes a story which still continues inaccuracies in regards to buying a Wii.

What if, instead of this story, he said "Why I didn't buy a Wii for Christmas, and how you can learn from my mistakes."

Then proceeded with useful information, like how if you buy last year's Rock Band or Guitar Hero boxed sets, you can save about half the retail price during some special deals, and get just as quality a boxed set as in the newer one, essentially allowing you to afford the new music title by itself, as well as an older iteration of the series with all the gear for the same cost as the newer game with the gear alone.  Even then, you could still save $20+, with more bang for your buck.

He could point out that Wii Play exists for people in his predicament (Though it was suggested that his $50 Wii-Remote price mistake might be attributed to Wii Play,) so you can get another game and a Wii-Remote for a marginal cost.

Perhaps he could point out he would have had an easier time if the Wii were bundled in a "ready-for-family" package, which comes with a few complete remotes and recommended games.

But clearly, his initial intent wasn't to help future consumers from the get-go, or he'd at least make clear the cost of the items he considered.  It's clear it wasn't to point out that games should be used in moderation, that was given minimal consideration, like it was an afterthought or an excuse to return the console.  So why didn't he buy the Wii for Christmas?  Why did he write the article, in the first place?

Given that he's said he isn't too cheap to buy one, and given that he's got a system for his children to abide by, in terms of playtime, and given that he's made it clear he's still uncertain the costs of certain aspects of the Wii, I can't bring myself to identify what stood in his way.  I'm not aware of what could have caused a panic attack.  I'm not sure what he expects the average informed reader to take away from his column, except that he doesn't exactly seem like a logical person, at least from this one purchasing decision.  The column has the exact opposite effect of what is intended to anyone who is educated, truthfully.

Perhaps we need to try to get an editorial published in his paper, but often, because editors of the paper are allowed to edit the content of the editorials, the original message doesn't make it through to the readers.  To make it more clear, Kairon, what I'm trying to say is that I'm upset because the platform he's using to write with doesn't allow us to make something constructive out of this, not in any method of relatively simple means.  The method I can think of that could have success would take time, as we'd need to develop and create a video game buyer's guide blog to combat this column, and ones similar to it.  Like a CAG, but for normal, everyday people.  I think only then would we have a forum that would be a competing voice.  In the least, NWR could create an official response, in effort to explain how to avoid the problems the journalist claims to have faced.

Offline Kairon

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2010, 07:14:41 PM »
I've been thinking just that thatguy! Hmm... a Wii guide guide to first-time console shoppers...
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline GearBoxClock

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2010, 07:16:43 PM »
Man, a PARENT'S GUIDE TO BUYING VIDEO GAMES FOR THE FIRST TIME would be very helpful to first time video game buying parents
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2010, 07:34:08 PM »
I've been thinking just that thatguy! Hmm... a Wii guide guide to first-time console shoppers...

That's the thing, though.  The only real way to be consistent would be to keep it updated with regular sales tips, suggestions, and all of that, otherwise, a year from now, won't the same thing happen again?

Offline brian577

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2010, 07:55:00 PM »
There's been an explosion of new comments on his latest article, including some people from Kotaku

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2010, 08:03:22 PM »
There's been an explosion of new comments on his latest article, including some people from Kotaku

That's the one thing I don't understand about internet browers... I clicked "Refresh" several times before posting when I said that, and it never updated to show anything more than those first four posts.  Was it like that for anyone else?

Offline brian577

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2010, 08:09:29 PM »
There's been an explosion of new comments on his latest article, including some people from Kotaku

That's the one thing I don't understand about internet browers... I clicked "Refresh" several times before posting when I said that, and it never updated to show anything more than those first four posts.  Was it like that for anyone else?
It's possible the site approves comments before they are posted

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Journalist Returns Wii Due to "Hidden Costs"
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2010, 01:34:51 AM »
It's also possible that everyone is getting WAAAY too into this article. The guy wrote a bad, misleading article. End of story. If he changed the article title to "I bought a Wii and a bunch of stuff for the Wii that I didn't need, and it cost a lot of money so I just took everything back," and then instead of posting it online just made it a word document and left if on his screen, then everything would be fine again.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA