Topic: Where should Nintendo go from here?

[Adrock]

As someone who wasn't fond of Brawl, the new Super Smash Bros. games, while overhyped, are exactly what I was hoping for: games that doubled back on all the dumb nonsense introduced in Brawl. They're what I so wanted Brawl to be in 2008. Brawl was so bad to me that I didn't want Sakurai in charge of the series anymore. I'll eat this crow and take that back. Granted, not everything in the new games is awesome, Smash Tour is ungodly awful and the stage builder is once again a pathetically missed opportunity, but Sakurai and co got the basics right for the most part and renewed my faith in the series.

Anyway, while I agree that Nintendo could stand to be more ambitious, it has shaken things up which is at least a start. Five years ago, Nintendo never would have picked up a game like Bayonetta 2. Sure, the game isn't for everyone, but that's the point. I don't believe Nintendo ever thought the game would be anything more than a niche release, but it funded the game anyway and commissioned a port of the original. It sounds like an admission that it needs more variety and will look outward for it. Again, it's a start.

Splatoon is a title headed by a bunch of younger members that deliberately eschews established characters in favor of brand new ones. I can see Mario showing up as DLC or an Amiibo bonus. We're already seeing a youth movement within Nintendo that is doing its own thing. I'd like to see more though perhaps Nintendo isn't ready to show more yet. The company just opened a new seven-story development studio in Kyoto (it's nearly as large as its headquarters also in Kyoto) earlier this year. I'd be thoroughly surprised if anyone there was working on Wii U titles.

That said, I understand the concern though I'm not as concerned. Nintendo has taken some steps, albeit baby steps, but it's important that those steps have been taken.

[Mop it up]

As someone who wasn't fond of Brawl, the new Super Smash Bros. games, while overhyped, are exactly what I was hoping for: games that doubled back on all the dumb nonsense introduced in Brawl. They're what I so wanted Brawl to be in 2008. Brawl was so bad to me that I didn't want Sakurai in charge of the series anymore.

I didn't like Brawl either, but I don't see what's changed. Tripping is gone, which certainly makes this new game better than Brawl. But, most everything else seems the same to me. The mechanics and physics seem copy/pasted from Brawl, which I didn't like. The returning characters have a few tweaks but seem mostly unchanged. A lot of voices and sound effects seem recycled, ones I didn't like and still don't.

The game seems to have doubled the nonsense, not scaled it back. The stages are worse than ever, with too much movement and too strong hazards. Even more powerful items were introduced, making nearly every item earn a KO. Way too many effects happen for every little thing, obscuring the view of the characters making things tough to follow. Sometimes simple is better, and that's why the first two Smash games are the best in my view. If I could somehow combine the elements of Smash 64 and Melee together I would have the perfect Smash game.

Five years ago, Nintendo never would have picked up a game like Bayonetta 2.

Splatoon is a title headed by a bunch of younger members that deliberately eschews established characters in favor of brand new ones.

Bayonetta 2 isn't made by Nintendo though. It is a good sign that they're branching out to other companies, just not exactly what I was talking about.

Splatoon is also a good sign, and I didn't mean to make it sound like nothing good was happening with Nintendo. But honestly, I don't care that much about new IP. I think there's still more than can be done with their existing IP and that's what I was focusing on with my post. I want to see more ambition with things like Mario and Pokémon and such. At least the new Zelda sounds like it could be interesting, which is nice to see after such a big string of ports and rehashes for that series.

[Adrock]

I generally ignore the stages with absurdly powerful stage hazards which is a shame because some of them are really cool and I'd like to play on them without having to choose the Final Destination version. I've spent far more time with the 3DS version and the stages are excellent for the most part. The hardware limitations ended up helping the game as the stages are more static. The Wii U version admittedly has an abundance of traveling stages which wouldn't be as big an issue if the stage builder wasn't such ass.

As you mentioned, nixing random tripping makes a world of difference and the games better than Brawl alone. The games are slower than Melee, but faster than Brawl. They could stand to be a little faster though I find it far more tolerable. Brawl wasn't just a total troll-fest for tournament players; it was flat-out hostile toward them. I'm not even a tournament player, but those changes ruined Brawl for me. This is also the most balanced roster in the series and the team is patching exploits. The changes to the edge game are also very welcome.

Anyway, I mentioned Bayonetta 2 as evidence that Nintendo is open to change and may be reflective of how it oversees its own games. This change is probably how a game like Splatoon even got the greenlight.

[Ymeegod]

Price cut and an better bundle.  Also Nintendo needs to work with retailer--they need stores to carry more units and actually display/promote them.It's to late IMO for a major comeback, best Nintendo can do is play it safe and not lose any more money on the WII U.  Ride it out until 2016-2017.     

[Nile Boogie Returns]

Smash 4:
With all the options and customizations available, I can't understand those who don't tailor the game to their liking. Hate a stage? Skip it. Don't like a item? Turn it down or turn it off. Seems simple to me. However, I don't understand those in the For Glory camp to begin with but I hope they enjoy themselves no less.

Back on topic:
There is no way the storage capacity has any major effect on the sales of the console. It is and has always been about the perception of weakness and the lack of games that justify the GamePad. Wii U is a few games away from cementing itself as a must-own. (to me its there now but I get those who don't think so)

"The Bayonetta Effect": I'm not sure this is an actual thing yet but it seems "when you can't get men to join the army, you draft them...$$$." This may have little impact on overall sales but continue to use "payola" to get those ill-fated and forgotten gems of the passionate game designers to come to your system. by hook or by crook.  I would think there are many more Itagaki's, Inafune's and Igarashi's out there that can be persuaded to create with freedom. Maybe thats what that New building is filled with.

See what Ubisoft's doing right now?

Do the complete opposite of that. And buy Rayman from them for Ra's sake.

Also this.  As a user of the system I would like a more flushed out remote app, I'd even pay for it. I'm almost to the point where the GamePad is the only remote in my house...I just can't set the DVR with it.

[Mop it up]

As you mentioned, nixing random tripping makes a world of difference and the games better than Brawl alone. The games are slower than Melee, but faster than Brawl. They could stand to be a little faster though I find it far more tolerable. Brawl wasn't just a total troll-fest for tournament players; it was flat-out hostile toward them. I'm not even a tournament player, but those changes ruined Brawl for me.

If you didn't have a problem with the mechanics, physics, items, style, etc like I did, then I guess those changes you mention would make a world of difference to you. Not to me, the game's still way worse than Melee and 64.

I haven't tried the 3DS game yet, but I'll get it at some point.

With all the options and customizations available, I can't understand those who don't tailor the game to their liking. Hate a stage? Skip it. Don't like a item? Turn it down or turn it off.

If I did that, I'd end up with maybe 3 stages and 2 items. This is no excuse.

[Ian Sane]

As someone who's been playing Nintendo games since 1989 at the age of 3, I want to see more ambition from Nintendo. Especially in the last few years, their games have been extremely safe, being mostly same-thing sequels and rehashes of previous games, such as NSMBU, Super Mario 3D World, Zelda: Link Between Worlds, Mario Kart 8, etc. Even the overhyped new Smash Bros is lackluster, being mostly Brawl with little changes and few new things. I want to see more new things for these series and franchises, and I want to see them be expanded.

This is reason number one why I don't own a Wii U and, frankly, don't feel like I'm missing out in not owning one.  And think of the sales pitch for the Wii U at launch.  Last gen hardware and the big title is a 2D plaftormer?  You expect me to buy a glorified PS3 in 2012 for a game that would have been seen as outdated on the N64?  Think of this - games like Super Mario 64 come across as too complex and inaccessible for Nintendo these days.  Go to Gamerankings.com and the top three titles are the Mario Galaxy games and OoT and yet Nintendo seems to going backwards from those.  Mario is now either 2D or 3D with a fixed camera view.  They can port OoT to the 3DS but when they make a new 3DS Zelda it goes back to the overhead view of the 2D games and lifts the whole damn world from a SNES game.  I don't buy new consoles to go BACKWARDS in game design.  It's like they forget those retro game designs they love were ambitious titles at the time.  The ambition is what drew me in, not the formula.

Splatoon is new but unfortunately it doesn't catch my interest at all.  Okay, not everything Nintendo makes is going to hit it off with everybody.  The problem is that Nintendo's truly new endeavours are too infrequent.  Frankly I think Splatoon will bomb, not because people don't want new stuff which is what Nintendo will interpret that as, but because I don't see much sales potential in a paint based shooter.  But things shouldn't be in such a state that any new IP is like a big "test" by itself.

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

[MagicCow64]

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

And which one won't be a loathsome exercise in dopamine exploitation?

[Soren]

Funny how you didn't mention Sunset Overdrive when making that comparison...

[Ian Sane]

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

And which one won't be a loathsome exercise in dopamine exploitation?

I'm not saying Destiny will be the better title but in 2014 it has the style and look that fits the time.  Cartoony squid kids shooting ink does not.  I also do not expect Splatoon to be promoted as this big videogame event like Destiny was.  It's not necessarily that kind of title anyway but why isn't EAD's new IP the kind of title that would get that kind of promotion?  Is this going to be treated by Nintendo as on par with Mario or Zelda?  I doubt it but that's really the sort of new IP Nintendo needs to make - the sort of stuff that will pushed as the big guns, not supporting titles.  Nintendo should be making new IP that could be the main focus on an E3 presentation and not be laughed out of the room like Wii Music was.  Like it should be the game generating the buzz instead of "oh by the way Nintendo also revealed this Splatoon game".  Sony, MS and third parties have generated buzz on completely new IP (sometimes failing to meet expectations).  By the time the game comes out the promotion and word of mouth is great enough that it already feels like an established IP when it's brand new.  Compare that to something like Wonderful 101 which is like at best that weird Nintendo game coming out between Mario games.  Nintendo doesn't try to make the next Mario, the next Nintendo IP to rank on top with their other big ones, and with their new IP that's the sort of ambitious approach I want to see.

[Adrock]

Besides Super Smash Bros., Nintendo has done a pretty mediocre job marketing all their Wii U games and that includes Mario Kart 8.

[Mop it up]

I actually have not yet seen any advertisements for Smash Bros, either version. I remember seeing ads for Mario Kart VIII and Super Mario 3D World, and even a SiNG Party one around launch, but still not Smash Bros.

[Ian Sane]

I actually have not yet seen any advertisements for Smash Bros, either version. I remember seeing ads for Mario Kart VIII and Super Mario 3D World, and even a SiNG Party one around launch, but still not Smash Bros.

I haven't seen a Nintendo ad since the "Wii would like to play" era.  My viewing habits have changed and I think Nintendo just doesn't run ads on the stuff I watch.  I used to see tons of their ads while watching WWF but since I don't watch it anymore I don't see the ads.  Now do I see videogame ads on the shows I do watch?  Yes, I do.  So why when I'm watching football am I getting ads for PS4 and XB1 games but not Nintendo games?

[ShyGuy]

I've seen Smash Bros ads and watch about 4 hours TV a week.

[NWR_insanolord]

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

And which one won't be a loathsome exercise in dopamine exploitation?

I'm not saying Destiny will be the better title but in 2014 it has the style and look that fits the time.  Cartoony squid kids shooting ink does not.  I also do not expect Splatoon to be promoted as this big videogame event like Destiny was.  It's not necessarily that kind of title anyway but why isn't EAD's new IP the kind of title that would get that kind of promotion?  Is this going to be treated by Nintendo as on par with Mario or Zelda?  I doubt it but that's really the sort of new IP Nintendo needs to make - the sort of stuff that will pushed as the big guns, not supporting titles.  Nintendo should be making new IP that could be the main focus on an E3 presentation and not be laughed out of the room like Wii Music was.  Like it should be the game generating the buzz instead of "oh by the way Nintendo also revealed this Splatoon game".  Sony, MS and third parties have generated buzz on completely new IP (sometimes failing to meet expectations).  By the time the game comes out the promotion and word of mouth is great enough that it already feels like an established IP when it's brand new.  Compare that to something like Wonderful 101 which is like at best that weird Nintendo game coming out between Mario games.  Nintendo doesn't try to make the next Mario, the next Nintendo IP to rank on top with their other big ones, and with their new IP that's the sort of ambitious approach I want to see.

I've said before that both the best thing about Nintendo and the worst thing about Nintendo is their complete indifference to what everyone else is doing. In this case, it's the best. Splatoon is unique, a fresh take on an overplayed genre. If Nintendo made a game like Destiny it wouldn't be as interesting because it'd be very similar to other existing things. I much prefer Nintendo throwing out off-the-wall concepts instead of rehashing what you see elsewhere.

[RedBlue]

Ian just wants Nintendo to be a dude bro game developer and that's never going to happen. Nintendo is the Disney of video games

[broodwars]

Ian just wants Nintendo to be a dude bro game developer and that's never going to happen. Nintendo is the Disney of video games

Overexposed, reliant on nostalgia, and never quite learning from their mistakes? Yeah, I'm with you there, bro. 

[Soren]

Overexposed, reliant on nostalgia, and never quite learning from their mistakes? Yeah, I'm with you there, bro. 

Good thing Ubisoft is no longer making Assassins Creed games for Wii U.

[broodwars]

Overexposed, reliant on nostalgia, and never quite learning from their mistakes? Yeah, I'm with you there, bro. 

Good thing Ubisoft is no longer making Assassins Creed games for Wii U.

Considering how Ubisoft has driven that franchise into the ground despite pleas for them to stop, good thing, indeed.

[NWR_insanolord]

The problem with that is they've probably got at least one and possibly more Assassin's Creed games that are far enough along in development that they can't just scrap them without taking major losses. If only someone had thought to suggest they not devote half the resources of the company to doing the same thing over and over.

[Soren]

Ugh, I think messed up that Assassins Creed joke. My bad, guys!

[Ian Sane]

Ian just wants Nintendo to be a dude bro game developer and that's never going to happen. Nintendo is the Disney of video games

You're not understanding my Destiny reference.  Destiny sounds like by all accounts to be overhyped **** and I don't want Nintendo to make a Destiny clone.  What I'm saying is that Activision went all in on a new IP.  They're the masters of rehashing the same bullshit again and again like Call of Duty and before that Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater.  But when they did publish a new IP they treated it like a big release with the kind of budget and marketing that a big release gets.  Nintendo tends to rely on their existing IPs for the big games while their new IP tends to get relegated to quirky side titles to fill the release schedule but are not expected to move consoles and tend to get passed off to secondary teams.

My favourite Wii game is Xenoblade because it's ambitious.  It has this huge world to explore and all these details and things to do.  You can tell the devs were passionate about it and the game made no compromises to attract a wider audience.  They just tried to make the best game they could and if you're on board, great, and if it's above your head, go play something else.  It reminds me a lot of N64 era Nintendo when almost every game seemed to be some ambitious project that aimed to be the best game ever made.  And the worst thing is that this grand ambitious game almost didn't get released in the US at all.  Compare Xenoblade to Skyward Sword.  Zelda is historically Nintendo's most ambitious series and yet Skyward Sword felt small and restrained compared to Xenoblade.

From Nintendo I want less NSMB and more Xenoblade in regards to the design and ambition of those titles.  I became a Nintendo fan because they were always so creative and ambitious and not formulaic like everyone else.  Now they're like everyone else so if I have to put up with formulaic product why don't I buy a non-Nintendo console that will at least have more games to choose from?

[NWR_insanolord]

You say that as if Nintendo's not throwing their weight behind Splatoon. You're right that Xenoblade got that treatment, but everything we've seen so far would indicate that they're treating Splatoon like it's a big deal.

[Stogi]

Ian, you have to look elsewhere to find your ambition in titles. In terms of scope, Skyward was pretty small. I will grant you that. But in terms of gameplay, it was huge. Motion control in Zelda? That's a dream come true.

As for the rest of Wii first party games, Super Mario Galaxy was certainly very ambitious and is still my favorite game ever. Metroid Prime 3 was certainly larger, more action packed than any of its predecessors AND it had some of the best Wiimote controls on the system.

But again, I see where you're coming from.

[Mop it up]

I much prefer Nintendo throwing out off-the-wall concepts instead of rehashing what you see elsewhere.

I agree. If I'm forced to choose between an unsuccessful (in the market) Nintendo making unique games vs. a successful Nintendo that makes trite like Destiny, I'll go with the former. Even if they have become formulaic with games like Mario, no one else is really offering me 3D platformers and adventure games that are quite like Zelda, so I'll still take those over the alternative systems out there.