Topic: Where should Nintendo go from here?

[NWR_insanolord]

After a strong showing at E3 this year, and the critically-acclaimed, as well as at least initially quick-selling release of Super Smash Bros., things might be looking up for the Wii U for the first time in a while. Beyond the few releases we know of for next year, what are your hopes and predictions for what Nintendo will do next with their console?

[broodwars]

Nintendo needs to strike while Smash is fresh in our minds and announce more Wii U software, and they need to announce it soon. We have some notable releases coming like Captain Toad; Kirby; & X, but those are pretty much the Wii U's only near-future releases. Zelda's destined to be a 2016 title, and who knows when Star Fox is going to hit so that might as well be 2016 as well. The Wii U's biggest problem right now is that there's no reason to believe the system has a future, especially with the 3rd parties gone. Nintendo needed to address that issue 2 years ago, and so far they still haven't.

[Evan_B]

I think, if 2015 goes as planned, we'll have a consistent momentum going. Nintendo needs to realize that once they stop the stream of releases, they are effectively killing momentum as well. So it's in their best interests to consider localizations like Rodea the Sky Soldier and Fatal Frame, even if those titles aren't huge sellers. The Wii U needs all the help it can get.

I, like Broodwars, see Zelda being bumped to 2016, though I remain hopeful. If that's the case, we have:
2015-
Yoshi
Kirby
Mario Maker
Splatoon
Mario Party 10
Xenoblade, which will likely be the "game of the year" vehicle Nintendo tries to push
Devil's Third

With 2016 looking something like:
Zelda
Star Fox
Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem
(One unnanounced 2016 game, likely Animal Crossing if they want to continue momentum)
(Another, though I'm stretching for competency on Nintendo's part)

And that's that. I foresee a few eShop games from Nintendo here and there, some meager VC releases. I expect the Wii U to finish it's lifespan with a graphical powerhouse that shows how beautiful the system can be: yes, I'm talking about Metroid. And that will be that, which I'm personally a-okay with.

[Soren]

Splatoon is getting tons of love on the eShop right now which leads me to believe that's going to be the game Nintendo pushes big time in 2015. For all its beauty, Xenoblade is still a niche product and I don't see Nintendo putting its big guns behind it.

From here until E3 Nintendo needs to announce the following:
- At least one new major franchise game. (Animal Crossing)
- At least one niche franchise game. (Metroid)
- An HD remake. (Sunshine, Prime 1, Luigi's Mansion, any of those)
- Pad the current 2015 lineup. Fatal Frame 5 won't get the sales you expect, but it will probably be the only Wii U game released in the span of a month, so it will go unchallenged by other releases.
- And an extra:if you're feeling bold, try and resurrect another third party franchise or game from development hell.
 

[Evan_B]

Oh, I totally see Splatoon being a major deal- new IP push and all that. But Xenoblade will be the open-world fix for 2015, not Zelda.

I am hoping Nintendo has some surprises for us for the year's end, unfortunately I see Kirby, Yoshi, MAYBE Devil's Third, and Mario Maker rounding out the first half of 2015, with Splatoon being their summer fun release and Xenoblade occupying an October/November slot, which doesn't inspire much confidence.

[MagicCow64]

This is tricky, because of the should in the question. I'd personally be pleased if they keep going diehard on the WiiU releases, because they've been knocking it out of the park all this gen, seeming to have hit a sweet spot on HD art design and super-polished gameplay. Outside of the odd release like Xenoblade X, I'm not even sure what Nintendo proper needs a PS4.5 powered console for, given that I also don't think 3rd party support is ever coming back.

So then, what is in Nintendo's best corporate interests? Bury the WiiU early and try to get an awkwardly Dreamcast-ish staggered new console out in 2016? If so, then Zelda U will be the Skyward Sword of the console, one last major release on a precipitously flagging platform (or it's cross-gen). And then there's the perennially looming question of a hybrid solution.

I think another way of looking at this from a console perspective is if you think Nintendo should abandon the custom architecture they've been building since the Gamecube and adopt the standard PC architecture that the PS4 and Xbone have resigned themselves to (which in the process is increasingly fueling the question of why dedicated consoles should exist at all).

[Soren]

I could see Devil's Third taking Bayo's late October slot next year. Mario Vs Donkey Kong gets released on the first day of E3 (the only non-random release date for an eShop game). Either Splatoon or Yoshi is the post E3 release, with the other coming later. Mario Maker in September and Xenoblade and my proposed Animal Crossing release being the main Holiday lineup (plus another game).

That still means that there's a month in the summer with no Wii U retail releases. Boom, put Fatal Frame 5 on there.

EDIT: Splatoon is getting more play now than Kirby, a game that has a confirmed release date. Nintendo is going to go hard with that game's marketing.

Also, Project CARS looks to be the only confirmed third party retail game for 2015 so far.

[broodwars]

From where I stand with the Wii U, its biggest problem as a platform (after 3rd party support, obviously) is that its software lineup doesn't offer up much in the way of variety. The first 2 years of the Wii U have been heavily dominated by platformers, especially 2D platformers. And what are Nintendo's (likely) first 3 Wii U games of next year? Yoshi's Wooly World, Kirby & the Rainbow Curse, and Mario Maker. 2D platformer, 2D platformer, and a tool for making 2D platformers.  Look, I love platformers (especially of the 3D variety), but we need more action/adventure games & shooters on the Wii U. Ordinarily, that would be a hole that an Assassin's Creed or a Shadow of Mordor would fill, but Nintendo doesn't have those anymore so they need to make their own. Zelda would fill that hole, but that game's a long ways away. Star Fox would also fill that hole, but that game's probably even further away.  Splatoon's a nice addition to the Wii U's shooter library, but it's primarily a MP-centric arena shooter. It's appeal is limited.

Which leads me to the change in business practices I've been begging Nintendo to do for pretty much 2 generations now: they need to expand and develop new Western-based studios, and those studios need to be devoted to making Western-centric games. I'm not saying Nintendo needs to be making so-called "dude-bro shooters" or games with tons of blood, but they need something other than 2D platformers and niche JRPGs to fill out their lineup.  And they need them now more than ever as Japan inches ever closer to completely abandoning console games.  This is a tactic that served Sony well last generation and was a major cause of the PS3's gradual shift in popularity. It also put Sony in an excellent position to take over this generation, so it would serve Nintendo well to emulate that strategy.

[Evan_B]

I REALLY hope that your release schedule doesn't turn out to be true, Soren, because that's a pretty abysmal one.

Also, Broodwars, when have MP-centric FPSs ever had limited appeal? It's practically what Sony build their release schedule on. I think the Wii U is really only lacking in RPGs- everything else they have seems well-balanced, though with a huge platformer library.

[Luigi Dude]

From where I stand with the Wii U, its biggest problem as a platform (after 3rd party support, obviously) is that its software lineup doesn't offer up much in the way of variety. The first 2 years of the Wii U have been heavily dominated by platformers, especially 2D platformers.

There's been two 2D Platformers from Nintendo in the last 2 year, NSMB U and Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze.  In that same timespan they've released three action games, The Wonderful 101, Hyrule Warriors and Bayonetta 2.  And if you try to count DLC like NSL U then you have to count Bayonetta 1 which still makes it more action games then 2D platformers.

I love how you complain about the lack of genre's on the system, and then have no idea what's actually on the thing.

[broodwars]

I love how you complain about the lack of genre's on the system, and then have no idea what's actually on the thing.

If you actually knew how to read (which is hilarious, really, considering you quoted me), you'd have noticed that I didn't single-out Nintendo when it comes to the Wii U's software lineup. Here's the quote again:

From where I stand with the Wii U, its biggest problem as a platform (after 3rd party support, obviously) is that its software lineup doesn't offer up much in the way of variety. The first 2 years of the Wii U have been heavily dominated by platformers, especially 2D platformers.

That's the software lineup in general, not just Nintendo's own games. So that includes platformers (both 2D & 3D) like Rayman Legends, Bit Trip Runner 2, Cloudberry Kingdom, DuckTales: Remastered, Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams, Guacamelee (which is heavily platforming-centric along with being a Metroid-style game), Kung Fu Rabbit, Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures, Sonic Boom, Scram Kitty & his Buddy on Rails, Shovel Knight, Super Mario 3D World, Teslagrad, both Toki Tori games, and Trine 2.

And that's with me leaving out edge-case games that feature platforming, but are primarily built around combat. Plus all the miscellaneous **** in the eShop no one cares about.

Nintendo isn't the only one pumping out platformers, but they take up a rather large percentage of the Wii U's overall library.  Just sayin', a little variety would be nice, especially if Nintendo themselves are making it happen.  But by all means, please continue deliberately misconstruing my words.

As for Wonderful 101, Hyrule Warriors, and Bayonetta 2, well...Bayonetta 2 at least is a step in the right direction (the other 2 can **** off), but none of those games were made by Nintendo. I'd like to see Nintendo themselves making more non-platformers games.

[NWR_insanolord]

I don't see why games commissioned and funded by Nintendo shouldn't count as Nintendo titles. By that logic F-Zero GX wasn't a Nintendo game.

[broodwars]

I don't see why games commissioned and funded by Nintendo shouldn't count as Nintendo titles. By that logic F-Zero GX wasn't a Nintendo game.

No, it wasn't. It was a Sega game, sadly one that Nintendo knows they could never top so they just mothballed the entire franchise.  :

[Evan_B]

But you're blaming Nintendo for the rest of the industry's actions. That being said, Nintendo makes plenty of games that span across genres. They also own IPs in other genres, which is generally what a publisher does if they don't know how to develop for a genre.

[broodwars]

But you're blaming Nintendo for the rest of the industry's actions. That being said, Nintendo makes plenty of games that span across genres. They also own IPs in other genres, which is generally what a publisher does if they don't know how to develop for a genre.

I'm not "blaming" Nintendo for the games other developers make. I'm saying that this is the situation the Wii U's in right now, and going forward I'd like to see that change. Yoshi's Wooly World; Kirby; & Mario Maker could all be excellent games. However, I feel that we're kind of well-served on platformers right now, as the Wii U seems to exist just to cater to Guillaume.  I don't feel like the platform really needs any more right now compared to other genres, especially from franchises that have all seen very recent entries in the last few years. I've like to see other types of games out from Nintendo in the future, especially from Western developers and especially new IP that Nintendo can grow and develop over what few months/year or so the Wii U has left before the next console arrives.

The Wii U as a console is pretty much in its last year of relevance. Nintendo needs to plan for the future, and that means planting the seeds of a new software strategy with new franchises that can excite people both in the final year of the Wii U as well as the first year of the next console (if, indeed, there is one). I'm not saying you can't enjoy the Wii U software that's out there, but the question posed by the topic was where Nintendo should go from here. That's beyond the Wii U, whose story has already been written and set in stone.

[Evan_B]

Fair enough. I agree with you there. Diversity will only help the library moving forward. I know I'm not the only one that has flung their arms in the air at the announcement of ANOTHER DKC title or ANOTHER yarn themed game, and I am a bit forgiving when it comes to Tainbow Cutse only because I missed out on the original, but the point still stands. Nintendo needs to maybe sell the Wii U like it tried (and kinda failed, but only kinda) to sell the DS- sequels to older games that deserve the treatment, like Luigi's Mansion, Resident Evil, Paper Mario, and more. There's a lack of interesting ideas in the current lineup and more of a retread of popular things on Wii U.

[Triforce Hermit]

Xenoblade might sell very well with Shulk in Smash because a lot of people are now looking for Xenoblade Chronicles just for that reason. Name alone can go pretty far. Also if there are more copies and they all aren't in the constant $50+ range , it has a very good chance of selling a lot more then the first. Just depends on how they market it as well.

I agree with the notion of less 2D platformers. The genre is being done to death by everyone, especially indie developers.

Resident Evil isn't coming on the Wii U. Revelations 2 showed that. If there is a RE Wii U title announced, I'll be surprised.

The only third party support they might get in the near future is Ubisoft with their "glowing games that are and just waiting for a higher playerbase." And Ubisoft is about to lose a customer base because of bullshit.

[Evan_B]

Of course, I was speaking metaphorically. In some ways, the 3DS library is more similar to the GCN than the Wii U is- which is sad, because the Wii U library is more like the Wii's which is not a positive.

[Adrock]

Beyond the few releases we know of for next year, what are your hopes and predictions for what Nintendo will do next with their console?

My hope is that Nintendo can continue to release quality software right up until at least a few months before a successor hits then transition smoothly to regular releases on said successor, none of that software drought bullshit at the tail of Wii's lifespan which transitioned to another drought on Wii U. Nintendo cannot afford to let that happen again. Wii U is done, but that doesn't mean it has to go out with a whisper. As Nintendo preps its next console, installing confidence that it can at the very least manage a steady release schedule will go a long way in turning things around which unfortunately, is a long ways from actually happening. Nintendo has to start somewhere and this is as good a place as any.

As for predictions, I see Nintendo using DLC and games like Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, that use existing assets, to ride out Wii U's final years. Besides the games already announced, Nintendo won't reveal too many new titles. And I'm still not convinced Open World Zelda is still a Wii U title. It's in the company's best interests to launch its next console with a title as big as Zelda that also happens to change the direction of the series. Nintendo hasn't had that kind of game since Super Mario 64. But in the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I'd rather not get too far into what Nintendo should do with its next console.

However, if Nintendo delays Open World Zelda, it's left with a major hole in Wii U's lineup. There are no other announced games that can carry a holiday season including Star Fox. Going back to what I mentioned earlier about Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, what Nintendo should do is use Wind Waker HD's engine and assets and make a new Zelda game that way. We haven't had a traditional 3D Zelda game since Twilight Princess so dipping back in the well, especially right before unleashing Open World Zelda the next year, shouldn't upset too many people. And **** it. Even if they are upset, they're going to buy it anyway.

[Evan_B]

If they release a home console without a proper Zelda entry on it I will lose my fucking mind, pardon my french.

That sounds like the worst possible thing they could do.

[Adrock]

If they release a home console without a proper Zelda entry on it I will lose my fucking mind, pardon my french.

That sounds like the worst possible thing they could do.

Did anyone suggest that?

[Evan_B]

Yeah, you did. When you said you weren't sure Open World Zelda was meant for Wii U.

[Ceric]

I'm going to suggest something crazy.

I think, if 2015 goes as planned, we'll have a consistent momentum going. Nintendo needs to realize that once they stop the stream of releases, they are effectively killing momentum as well. So it's in their best interests to consider localizations like Rodea the Sky Soldier and Fatal Frame, even if those titles aren't huge sellers. The Wii U needs all the help it can get.

I, like Broodwars, see Zelda being bumped to 2016, though I remain hopeful. If that's the case, we have:
2015-
Yoshi
Kirby
Mario Maker
Splatoon
Mario Party 10
Xenoblade, which will likely be the "game of the year" vehicle Nintendo tries to push
Devil's Third

With 2016 looking something like:
Zelda
Star Fox
Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem
(One unnanounced 2016 game, likely Animal Crossing if they want to continue momentum)
(Another, though I'm stretching for competency on Nintendo's part)

And that's that. I foresee a few eShop games from Nintendo here and there, some meager VC releases. I expect the Wii U to finish it's lifespan with a graphical powerhouse that shows how beautiful the system can be: yes, I'm talking about Metroid. And that will be that, which I'm personally a-okay with.

See that list of games Evan_B gave?  Nintendo should sell a Digital Season Pass to them.  Which would get you them plus a few connected VC games for about $5 less than if you would have bought without the commitment charged to you at time of Preload.

[Adrock]

Yeah, you did. When you said you weren't sure Open World Zelda was meant for Wii U.

Well, besides the fact that Wind Waker HD came out over a year ago (unless you meant new entry), I also suggested that Nintendo use Wind Waker HD's engine and assets to build a new Zelda game if you, you know, bothered to read the very next paragraph. Delaying Zelda only makes sense if Nintendo has something to replace it with because Devil's Third and Xenoblade Chronicles X can't carry a holiday season like Zelda can.

[Ian Sane]

When I think about what Nintendo has to correct, they have to have started once that dismal sales forecast came in.  If they're still stuck with their thumbs up their butts wondering why the Wii U isn't selling or, even worse, naively thinking that Mario Kart and SSB have turned things around after a slow start, they're screwed.  A common point we keep making is of having a more frequent release schedule and having more teams to create more titles because HD games take longer to make.  If they haven't started doing that already then the Wii U successor is toast.  The third parties are going to be cautious and Nintendo, even if they design a console that has the hardware design third parties want, may have to initially sell it on their own.  They can't do that if they're releasing only four games a year.

And more variety is needed as broodwars pointed out.  If you're the only dev worth a **** supporting your hardware if ANY notable genre is not spoken for then what the hell are you doing making "duplicates" in the same genre?  The 2D platformer audience has their game.  You don't need DKC and Kirby and Yoshi doing the same thing when the FPS audience and the open world audience, two of the most popular genres right now, have no reason to even consider owning your console.

And they can't destroy their momentum like Adrock said.  Nintendo has been doing this "practically no games for the last year" routine since the N64.  So Nintendo just goes out of sight and out of mind for 8 months to a year seemingly on a regular basis and just assumes everyone is going to be all hyped up for their next product after that?  Of course how can Nintendo address this even if they want to?  Are they going to have the manpower to release enough stuff?  At the very least they should not be picky about localization.

The Wii U successor should come out in November of 2016.  The Xbox was only around for four years but that didn't turn anyone off.  It's the least amount of time where they have both a realistic shot of making the date and it won't come across as abandoning their product.  The PS4 and XB1 will probably last at least as long as their predecessors so Nintendo's console won't be lapped that quickly.  The hardware should have no connection to the Wii branding other than Nintendo being the manufacturer or possibly backwards compatibility.  It should not have "Wii" in the name or look like the Wii.  It should exceed the specs of the PS4, not that much, but enough that it seems current and not like Nintendo playing catch up and can last a few years with the PS5 and XB2(?).  Nintendo should go to major third parties, both Japanese and Western, and get their input into the hardware design.  It should be designed for all devs, not just Nintendo's personal needs.  If anyone should be asked to adapt or adjust it should be Nintendo themselves as they are the only party that can't just choose to deny support.  The priority should for the Nintendo console to be included in multiplatform development, where it's easy enough that third parties might just do it even before the system builds an audience because the risk is minimal.  If necessary Nintendo may have to pay for some timed exclusives or offer help with porting titles at the beginning to rebuild trust with third parties.

Nintendo should aim to have some really impressive stuff at launch because the other guys will have had years of games and ports of the same titles won't move systems.  They need their own killer apps to do that.  They should aim to have a big title like Mario that appeals to all ages and a new IP that appeals more to adults and teens.  This will give the impression that Nintendo isn't just about the same old stuff but isn't abandoning their franchises either.  The goal should be to provide a good variety throughout the console's life.  All these Western devs they should acquire to fill gaps?  Those guys should be working on new IP because Nintendo's existing teams are sufficient for making the franchise stuff.  A console that's just the same Nintendo franchises won't sell beyond what the Wii U is selling now.  No need to abandon those franchises but if you're expanding your output you can cover both bases.

The idea is that this Nintendo console offers what the other guys have but is superior because it also has Nintendo games and Nintendo makes better games than anyone.  For years it's been Nintendo vs. third party games and they lose on sheer numbers.  The goal should be to make it Nintendo's games vs. Sony's games vs. Microsoft's games.  Nintendo can win that if they're a little more ambitious and don't stick to NSMB style safe titles.

Of course if Nintendo goes for a hybrid that's a completely different approach.  That's more like the current approach where Nintendo goes with a distinct product that has almost no common ground with their competitors.  It carries the risk that if it fails both their handheld and console lines are dead.  Though if Nintendo hasn't been prepping for the future they can still execute this idea fairly well while a full-on console stands no chance to succeed if Nintendo keeps up their current infrequent output level.  Though wouldn't this hybrid be HD?  Anything marketed as any sort of console would have to be.  So wouldn't it have the same dev cycle length that the Wii U currently has?  They would need the 3DS third parties to stay on board to fill things out.  I think Nintendo expanding their teams is something they pretty much HAVE to do no matter what.

[NWR_insanolord]

To be fair with the 2D platformer thing, I don't think there's much of an opportunity cost for most of them. NSMBU and Yoshi are made by studios that pretty much only make 2D platformers, and I doubt Kirby's taking up that significant of an amount of resources. The exception to that, of course, is Retro with DKC, but Tropical Freeze is just so damn good that I can't complain about that. They'd damn well better be making something different now, though.

[Ian Sane]

To be fair with the 2D platformer thing, I don't think there's much of an opportunity cost for most of them. NSMBU and Yoshi are made by studios that pretty much only make 2D platformers, and I doubt Kirby's taking up that significant of an amount of resources. The exception to that, of course, is Retro with DKC, but Tropical Freeze is just so damn good that I can't complain about that. They'd damn well better be making something different now, though.

What's frustrating is that you can make a lot of 2D side scroller type games without every single one of them being similar to Mario.  Why couldn't one of these teams make something that plays more like Mega Man, Contra, Final Fight or Shinobi?  Those are all 2D side scrollers but they all play quite differently from Mario.  Or more importantly why not something that plays like Zelda II or a new 2D METROID!?  You're hung up on 2D games for some reason, haven't made a 2D Metroid in years, and you have the Metroid Prime guys working on a 2D game!  Come on this is easy stuff!

I'm assuming Nintendo was counting their chickens before they hatch.  The initial lineup of the Wii U seemed to focus a lot on 2D platformers and mini-game comps.  What are the Wii U launch games?  NSMB U and Nintendo Land.  Nintendo noticed that NSMB Wii and the various Wii Series games were big hits so they figured they'll just release a couple games like that and the system will sell like hotcakes and then they'll release more games in the same genres and those will sell like hotcakes with that same audience.  With the Wii U I really got the feeling that Nintendo didn't know why the Wii was successful and tried to recreate its success by copying some of its trademarks in a very superficial way.  We all rolled our eyes when DKC was revealed but that project probably started before the Wii U was even released and Nintendo had to keep going on with a strategy that no longer made sense but had already been invested in.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'd argue NSMBU and Tropical Freeze play quite differently from one another. The others aren't out yet, but based on Good Feel's previous games I think Yoshi's likely to be distinct as well, and if Kirby's true to its predecessor it will also be very different.

The thing here, though, is that I'm perfectly happy with a system being dominated by platformers. That's probably my favorite kind of game, so being about half the lineup, as well as things like Pikmin that I love, is fine by me. I understand why that's not true for most people, but I couldn't really be that much happier with the Wii U lineup at this point.

[RedBlue]

Ian Sane tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back

[Nile Boogie Returns]

They should hold serve. Stay on the path they've been on since E3 AND TREEHOUSE LIVE. I would love a sprinkling of more 3rd party games maybe 5 next year(not lego or just dance). Like someone said before me, localize the Japanese games and get that Retro game a showing.


Also:


Fix the lack of basic streaming apps (WWE network, HBOGO, Simpsons World etc)





Sales not withstanding, this has been one of the best years to own Nintendo products.

[Soren]

Nintendo needs a serios uptick in sales this holiday season just to get back to getting basic third party titles (COD,Madden,Fifa). They're only getting Lego, Dance and Skylanders because those games still outperform other platforms.

[Evan_B]

I'd argue NSMBU and Tropical Freeze play quite differently from one another. The others aren't out yet, but based on Good Feel's previous games I think Yoshi's likely to be distinct as well, and if Kirby's true to its predecessor it will also be very different.

The thing here, though, is that I'm perfectly happy with a system being dominated by platformers. That's probably my favorite kind of game, so being about half the lineup, as well as things like Pikmin that I love, is fine by me. I understand why that's not true for most people, but I couldn't really be that much happier with the Wii U lineup at this point.

It's not the "feel" of the game we're talking about. Some of my favorite games of all time are side-scrolling, but they don't focus on the "jump on heads, get coins" style of play. I would be okay with a system dominated by 2D sidescrollers if they had a different vocabulary than the 2D platformer. Again, would people be much more excited for a new Metroid game instead of Yoshi's Wooly World? I would argue "yes". Hell, they could have made Samus' Stringy Stars and I would be more excited. I was happy with the announcement of Rainbow Curse because it's play function is different. Even with the multiplayer capabilities (that are extremely stupid), the Gamepad player is controlling a character that contributes to the gameplay in an engaging way. It honestly should have been a launch title, rather that the sterile, removed Gamepad usage of NSMBU.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

At this point in time  its better to pretend 3rd parties don't even exist and don't even bring them up, they are NEVER going to give Nintendo the support they deserve, and Nintendo didn't just lose them over night its been happening for TWENTY YEARS. There is a culture at Nintendo that they are right and they do not budge on that, never will. They said during the GameCube days Online was not important, and despite online being the standard, Nintendo still continues to half ass the online stuff as if they are still trying to prove that nobody cares. I get the impression that if it isn't their idea then to them its a bad idea period.

I love platformers, especially Mario, DK, Sonic, etc, but I don't care for Yoshi or Kirby much, never have. Here is the thing, Nintendo making games that are remeniscant of their glory days is not going to get their audience back, it is only going to keep them placating a shrinking loyal fanbase that hates change as much as they do.

Even if Nintendo did everything Ian says, they will still not get 3rd party support, those days are long gone. Some companies like Ubisoft and Activision are waiting for proof the sales are worth it, Capcom, EA, Konami, Square, even Sega, have all pretty much given up taking Nintendo seriously. Even with massive sales on Wii Nintendo failed to get solid 3rd party support, they got the token games that played similar to existing Nintendo games, and plenty of year late PS2 ports because they made such an underpowered piece of ****.

With Wii U they never stood a chance, even if it sold well enough to get the year late PS3/360 ports nobody wants to make games for a console that is not just underpowered but lacking in basic hard drive space also forces developers to gimp their product because unlike the competition whose base units come with more than enough storage to meet the needs of the developers, Wii U, like Wii before it, has just barely enough space to meet Nintendo's needs, game saves and a few eshop purchases, before a secondary drive becomes not optional but mandatory.

the basic model should have been the 32 Gb one and the Deluxe should have had at least 120 GB if not more.

The problem is Nintendo doesn't expect 3rd parties to support them so they don't give a damn they gave up chasing after companies that treat them like dirt anyways. With GameCube they went out of their way to vet 3rd parties and they still got stabbed in the back, they still struggled to maintain basic, token support. And Gamecube was doing much better than Wii U is right now. Wii U is going to be their Saturn, its going to get a quite and sudden death with no warning. I am betting that everything they have announced so far is literally all they have planned for next year. That is why they are launching New 3DS because they need something new on the market to tide them over while they decide what to do next, release a tablet, a sleep monitor, or endless barrage of keychains.

[Ceric]

I will say I found it interesting that watching the Thanksgiving Parade out of the few games ads I saw a most of them where Just Dance and Skylanders Trap Team with no mention that those games came on anything but the Wii U (and Wii in Trap Team part.)

[RedBlue]

Why do I need a 120 GB model, if I have 2 TB right now?

[Soren]

For the cost of a USB Y-cable I upgraded my 8GB Basic model to 250GB. The storage issue is silly given the relatively cheap cost of portable hard drives.

[NWR_insanolord]

The only complaint I can see wit the system regarding storage is with Nintendo being too cheap to use USB 3.0 for the ports, necessitating the Y cable in a lot of cases.

[Adrock]

Yeah, the Y-cable is mainly my issue with it. I would either need to buy a Y-cable or cat-proof the AC adapter in addition to needing an extra outlet though I have a power strip for that. Still, if I really needed the extra storage space, neither is a major problem, just a mild inconvenience. Fortunately, right now I don't need additional storage space and if I really need it in a pinch, I'd start by deleting Trine 2 which is only fun multiplayer except no one wants to play it when they come over. Boo/hiss

Anyway, like Nile said, it'd be totally cool to have an HBO GO app. At the same time, if i'd stop being lazy, I'd just get Google Chromecast, stream from my Macbook Pro, and be done with it.

[Shaymin]

See what Ubisoft's doing right now?

Do the complete opposite of that. And buy Rayman from them for Ra's sake.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

WRONG, you guys are not the target audience, like me we are the fringe, the massess that Nintendo fails to reach DON'T have USB hard drives attatched to their game consoles, at least not up front. If you have to upgrade right away that is a problem always has been. Defending it because you did so anyways isn't a good argument. Storage is an issue its just not an issue for tech savvy nerds like us, and the few die hard loyalists who learned to adapt to Nintendo's funky ways decades back.

The average customer still does not plug in a hard drive to their machine and like has been said, it isn't even friendly to do so on Wii u, it takes extra hardware to make something work that the other two can do out of the box, the PS3 is the most upgrade friendly so Wii U doesn't have to be that good but better than it is. And it is still an issue even with a 32 GB model and an abundance of Hard Drives, because it still adds to the cost of the machine, even if you have one lying around that is one taken away from an other potential use, and again why would you use a worn out hard drive you have replaced for whatever reason on your game console if you value your digital content?

[Soren]

Meh, works for me.

[RedBlue]

So Xbone is not user friendly? Ps4 requires a screw driver, USB flash drive to add more storage. My 32 GB Wii U took 2 years to fill up, then I bought a USB hard drive plugged it in then hit format. And that was it :

[broodwars]

Just on a side note, wile the PS4 & Xbone's 500 GB internal HDDs are nowhere near as bad as the Wii U's pathetic 8-32 GB HDD, speaking from experience they aren't all that spectacular, either. I installed a 1 TB HDD in my PS4 at launch, and I've had to fridge clean because I'm almost out of space. I barely have anything on my Xbone, and it's currently at 65% of storage remaining. When every game install, regardless of whether it's on a disc, requires 40-50 GB of storage, that 500 GB gets eaten up quickly.  Nintendo's cheapness with the Wii U's HDD is certainly worthy of condemnation, but the 250 GB external HDD I got for it is working for me just fine since only downloadable games are taking up storage.

[the asylum]

Any direction that involves new F-Zero is a good direction by me

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

So Xbone is not user friendly? Ps4 requires a screw driver, USB flash drive to add more storage. My 32 GB Wii U took 2 years to fill up, then I bought a USB hard drive plugged it in then hit format. And that was it : :

Um you start off with 500 GB, if that is not enough HOW THE HELL is 32 GB enough, DAMN. It took you 2 years to fill it up because there is nothing on it, but if it had been designed properly at the start it would have had more games, and the games it would have had more content. it is a problem its just not a problem for everyone.

[Adrock]

Game installations are mandatory on Xbox One and PS4 which is what takes up all that hard drive space. This isn't even an option on Wii U.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

Game installations are mandatory on Xbox One and PS4 which is what takes up all that hard drive space. This isn't even an option on Wii U.

which is exactly the problem, those games can't be released on Wii U because of the lack of hard drive space. Why defend a stupid move why not just admit it is stupid and you can live with it but its still a problem? There are whole games that just can't be released on Wii U because publishers have no faith that their is a big enough audience because if a game requires an install because of the content either that content gets left out, Wii U owners will bitch and boycott the "gimped" version of the game and sales suffer. OR the smaller subset of the small install base who has hard drives is not large enough to justify the investment and those games or features get left off and Wii U owners bitch, boycott the game anyways, and 3rd party companies scale back support again. So clearly it is a problem. It isn't the ONLY problem it isn't even the biggest problem but it still is a problem and no Nintendo is not going to fix the problem in their next console if they were they would have done so with Wii U because Wii suffered from the same problem.

[RedBlue]

You are just pulling **** out of your ass now.

[NWR_insanolord]

Unless you're buying retail games digitally or going completely nuts with download-only games, 32 GB is more than enough for most people. That's not having any effect on the software support for the system.

[Mop it up]

As someone who's been playing Nintendo games since 1989 at the age of 3, I want to see more ambition from Nintendo. Especially in the last few years, their games have been extremely safe, being mostly same-thing sequels and rehashes of previous games, such as NSMBU, Super Mario 3D World, Zelda: Link Between Worlds, Mario Kart 8, etc. Even the overhyped new Smash Bros is lackluster, being mostly Brawl with little changes and few new things. I want to see more new things for these series and franchises, and I want to see them be expanded.

I think the reality of the situation is that all of the key people at Nintendo are growing old. Ambition is typically a youthful quality, whereas Nintendo seem nostalgic for the past, trying to recapture their old magic by making the same things over again, playing it safe and familiar. The future of Nintendo seems rocky, not for any financial reason, but because they don't seem to be training replacements for when the old guard retires. For better or worse, I want to see what some fresh, young talent could do for Nintendo.

That said, I s'pose that just covers my hopes, not my predictions. I really have no idea what Nintendo are going to do, but my only prediction is that they won't line up with my preferences. But either way, I respect that they have some tough decisions to make, and I can say that I would not want to be someone who has to make those decisions.

[Adrock]

As someone who wasn't fond of Brawl, the new Super Smash Bros. games, while overhyped, are exactly what I was hoping for: games that doubled back on all the dumb nonsense introduced in Brawl. They're what I so wanted Brawl to be in 2008. Brawl was so bad to me that I didn't want Sakurai in charge of the series anymore. I'll eat this crow and take that back. Granted, not everything in the new games is awesome, Smash Tour is ungodly awful and the stage builder is once again a pathetically missed opportunity, but Sakurai and co got the basics right for the most part and renewed my faith in the series.

Anyway, while I agree that Nintendo could stand to be more ambitious, it has shaken things up which is at least a start. Five years ago, Nintendo never would have picked up a game like Bayonetta 2. Sure, the game isn't for everyone, but that's the point. I don't believe Nintendo ever thought the game would be anything more than a niche release, but it funded the game anyway and commissioned a port of the original. It sounds like an admission that it needs more variety and will look outward for it. Again, it's a start.

Splatoon is a title headed by a bunch of younger members that deliberately eschews established characters in favor of brand new ones. I can see Mario showing up as DLC or an Amiibo bonus. We're already seeing a youth movement within Nintendo that is doing its own thing. I'd like to see more though perhaps Nintendo isn't ready to show more yet. The company just opened a new seven-story development studio in Kyoto (it's nearly as large as its headquarters also in Kyoto) earlier this year. I'd be thoroughly surprised if anyone there was working on Wii U titles.

That said, I understand the concern though I'm not as concerned. Nintendo has taken some steps, albeit baby steps, but it's important that those steps have been taken.

[Mop it up]

As someone who wasn't fond of Brawl, the new Super Smash Bros. games, while overhyped, are exactly what I was hoping for: games that doubled back on all the dumb nonsense introduced in Brawl. They're what I so wanted Brawl to be in 2008. Brawl was so bad to me that I didn't want Sakurai in charge of the series anymore.

I didn't like Brawl either, but I don't see what's changed. Tripping is gone, which certainly makes this new game better than Brawl. But, most everything else seems the same to me. The mechanics and physics seem copy/pasted from Brawl, which I didn't like. The returning characters have a few tweaks but seem mostly unchanged. A lot of voices and sound effects seem recycled, ones I didn't like and still don't.

The game seems to have doubled the nonsense, not scaled it back. The stages are worse than ever, with too much movement and too strong hazards. Even more powerful items were introduced, making nearly every item earn a KO. Way too many effects happen for every little thing, obscuring the view of the characters making things tough to follow. Sometimes simple is better, and that's why the first two Smash games are the best in my view. If I could somehow combine the elements of Smash 64 and Melee together I would have the perfect Smash game.

Five years ago, Nintendo never would have picked up a game like Bayonetta 2.

Splatoon is a title headed by a bunch of younger members that deliberately eschews established characters in favor of brand new ones.

Bayonetta 2 isn't made by Nintendo though. It is a good sign that they're branching out to other companies, just not exactly what I was talking about.

Splatoon is also a good sign, and I didn't mean to make it sound like nothing good was happening with Nintendo. But honestly, I don't care that much about new IP. I think there's still more than can be done with their existing IP and that's what I was focusing on with my post. I want to see more ambition with things like Mario and Pokémon and such. At least the new Zelda sounds like it could be interesting, which is nice to see after such a big string of ports and rehashes for that series.

[Adrock]

I generally ignore the stages with absurdly powerful stage hazards which is a shame because some of them are really cool and I'd like to play on them without having to choose the Final Destination version. I've spent far more time with the 3DS version and the stages are excellent for the most part. The hardware limitations ended up helping the game as the stages are more static. The Wii U version admittedly has an abundance of traveling stages which wouldn't be as big an issue if the stage builder wasn't such ass.

As you mentioned, nixing random tripping makes a world of difference and the games better than Brawl alone. The games are slower than Melee, but faster than Brawl. They could stand to be a little faster though I find it far more tolerable. Brawl wasn't just a total troll-fest for tournament players; it was flat-out hostile toward them. I'm not even a tournament player, but those changes ruined Brawl for me. This is also the most balanced roster in the series and the team is patching exploits. The changes to the edge game are also very welcome.

Anyway, I mentioned Bayonetta 2 as evidence that Nintendo is open to change and may be reflective of how it oversees its own games. This change is probably how a game like Splatoon even got the greenlight.

[Ymeegod]

Price cut and an better bundle.  Also Nintendo needs to work with retailer--they need stores to carry more units and actually display/promote them.It's to late IMO for a major comeback, best Nintendo can do is play it safe and not lose any more money on the WII U.  Ride it out until 2016-2017.     

[Nile Boogie Returns]

Smash 4:
With all the options and customizations available, I can't understand those who don't tailor the game to their liking. Hate a stage? Skip it. Don't like a item? Turn it down or turn it off. Seems simple to me. However, I don't understand those in the For Glory camp to begin with but I hope they enjoy themselves no less.

Back on topic:
There is no way the storage capacity has any major effect on the sales of the console. It is and has always been about the perception of weakness and the lack of games that justify the GamePad. Wii U is a few games away from cementing itself as a must-own. (to me its there now but I get those who don't think so)

"The Bayonetta Effect": I'm not sure this is an actual thing yet but it seems "when you can't get men to join the army, you draft them...$$$." This may have little impact on overall sales but continue to use "payola" to get those ill-fated and forgotten gems of the passionate game designers to come to your system. by hook or by crook.  I would think there are many more Itagaki's, Inafune's and Igarashi's out there that can be persuaded to create with freedom. Maybe thats what that New building is filled with.

See what Ubisoft's doing right now?

Do the complete opposite of that. And buy Rayman from them for Ra's sake.

Also this.  As a user of the system I would like a more flushed out remote app, I'd even pay for it. I'm almost to the point where the GamePad is the only remote in my house...I just can't set the DVR with it.

[Mop it up]

As you mentioned, nixing random tripping makes a world of difference and the games better than Brawl alone. The games are slower than Melee, but faster than Brawl. They could stand to be a little faster though I find it far more tolerable. Brawl wasn't just a total troll-fest for tournament players; it was flat-out hostile toward them. I'm not even a tournament player, but those changes ruined Brawl for me.

If you didn't have a problem with the mechanics, physics, items, style, etc like I did, then I guess those changes you mention would make a world of difference to you. Not to me, the game's still way worse than Melee and 64.

I haven't tried the 3DS game yet, but I'll get it at some point.

With all the options and customizations available, I can't understand those who don't tailor the game to their liking. Hate a stage? Skip it. Don't like a item? Turn it down or turn it off.

If I did that, I'd end up with maybe 3 stages and 2 items. This is no excuse.

[Ian Sane]

As someone who's been playing Nintendo games since 1989 at the age of 3, I want to see more ambition from Nintendo. Especially in the last few years, their games have been extremely safe, being mostly same-thing sequels and rehashes of previous games, such as NSMBU, Super Mario 3D World, Zelda: Link Between Worlds, Mario Kart 8, etc. Even the overhyped new Smash Bros is lackluster, being mostly Brawl with little changes and few new things. I want to see more new things for these series and franchises, and I want to see them be expanded.

This is reason number one why I don't own a Wii U and, frankly, don't feel like I'm missing out in not owning one.  And think of the sales pitch for the Wii U at launch.  Last gen hardware and the big title is a 2D plaftormer?  You expect me to buy a glorified PS3 in 2012 for a game that would have been seen as outdated on the N64?  Think of this - games like Super Mario 64 come across as too complex and inaccessible for Nintendo these days.  Go to Gamerankings.com and the top three titles are the Mario Galaxy games and OoT and yet Nintendo seems to going backwards from those.  Mario is now either 2D or 3D with a fixed camera view.  They can port OoT to the 3DS but when they make a new 3DS Zelda it goes back to the overhead view of the 2D games and lifts the whole damn world from a SNES game.  I don't buy new consoles to go BACKWARDS in game design.  It's like they forget those retro game designs they love were ambitious titles at the time.  The ambition is what drew me in, not the formula.

Splatoon is new but unfortunately it doesn't catch my interest at all.  Okay, not everything Nintendo makes is going to hit it off with everybody.  The problem is that Nintendo's truly new endeavours are too infrequent.  Frankly I think Splatoon will bomb, not because people don't want new stuff which is what Nintendo will interpret that as, but because I don't see much sales potential in a paint based shooter.  But things shouldn't be in such a state that any new IP is like a big "test" by itself.

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

[MagicCow64]

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

And which one won't be a loathsome exercise in dopamine exploitation?

[Soren]

Funny how you didn't mention Sunset Overdrive when making that comparison...

[Ian Sane]

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

And which one won't be a loathsome exercise in dopamine exploitation?

I'm not saying Destiny will be the better title but in 2014 it has the style and look that fits the time.  Cartoony squid kids shooting ink does not.  I also do not expect Splatoon to be promoted as this big videogame event like Destiny was.  It's not necessarily that kind of title anyway but why isn't EAD's new IP the kind of title that would get that kind of promotion?  Is this going to be treated by Nintendo as on par with Mario or Zelda?  I doubt it but that's really the sort of new IP Nintendo needs to make - the sort of stuff that will pushed as the big guns, not supporting titles.  Nintendo should be making new IP that could be the main focus on an E3 presentation and not be laughed out of the room like Wii Music was.  Like it should be the game generating the buzz instead of "oh by the way Nintendo also revealed this Splatoon game".  Sony, MS and third parties have generated buzz on completely new IP (sometimes failing to meet expectations).  By the time the game comes out the promotion and word of mouth is great enough that it already feels like an established IP when it's brand new.  Compare that to something like Wonderful 101 which is like at best that weird Nintendo game coming out between Mario games.  Nintendo doesn't try to make the next Mario, the next Nintendo IP to rank on top with their other big ones, and with their new IP that's the sort of ambitious approach I want to see.

[Adrock]

Besides Super Smash Bros., Nintendo has done a pretty mediocre job marketing all their Wii U games and that includes Mario Kart 8.

[Mop it up]

I actually have not yet seen any advertisements for Smash Bros, either version. I remember seeing ads for Mario Kart VIII and Super Mario 3D World, and even a SiNG Party one around launch, but still not Smash Bros.

[Ian Sane]

I actually have not yet seen any advertisements for Smash Bros, either version. I remember seeing ads for Mario Kart VIII and Super Mario 3D World, and even a SiNG Party one around launch, but still not Smash Bros.

I haven't seen a Nintendo ad since the "Wii would like to play" era.  My viewing habits have changed and I think Nintendo just doesn't run ads on the stuff I watch.  I used to see tons of their ads while watching WWF but since I don't watch it anymore I don't see the ads.  Now do I see videogame ads on the shows I do watch?  Yes, I do.  So why when I'm watching football am I getting ads for PS4 and XB1 games but not Nintendo games?

[ShyGuy]

I've seen Smash Bros ads and watch about 4 hours TV a week.

[NWR_insanolord]

Let's put it this way.  Activision tries to create a new IP for this gen and they go with Destiny.  Nintendo comes up with Splatoon.  Which one appeals more to present-day console gamer tastes?

And which one won't be a loathsome exercise in dopamine exploitation?

I'm not saying Destiny will be the better title but in 2014 it has the style and look that fits the time.  Cartoony squid kids shooting ink does not.  I also do not expect Splatoon to be promoted as this big videogame event like Destiny was.  It's not necessarily that kind of title anyway but why isn't EAD's new IP the kind of title that would get that kind of promotion?  Is this going to be treated by Nintendo as on par with Mario or Zelda?  I doubt it but that's really the sort of new IP Nintendo needs to make - the sort of stuff that will pushed as the big guns, not supporting titles.  Nintendo should be making new IP that could be the main focus on an E3 presentation and not be laughed out of the room like Wii Music was.  Like it should be the game generating the buzz instead of "oh by the way Nintendo also revealed this Splatoon game".  Sony, MS and third parties have generated buzz on completely new IP (sometimes failing to meet expectations).  By the time the game comes out the promotion and word of mouth is great enough that it already feels like an established IP when it's brand new.  Compare that to something like Wonderful 101 which is like at best that weird Nintendo game coming out between Mario games.  Nintendo doesn't try to make the next Mario, the next Nintendo IP to rank on top with their other big ones, and with their new IP that's the sort of ambitious approach I want to see.

I've said before that both the best thing about Nintendo and the worst thing about Nintendo is their complete indifference to what everyone else is doing. In this case, it's the best. Splatoon is unique, a fresh take on an overplayed genre. If Nintendo made a game like Destiny it wouldn't be as interesting because it'd be very similar to other existing things. I much prefer Nintendo throwing out off-the-wall concepts instead of rehashing what you see elsewhere.

[RedBlue]

Ian just wants Nintendo to be a dude bro game developer and that's never going to happen. Nintendo is the Disney of video games

[broodwars]

Ian just wants Nintendo to be a dude bro game developer and that's never going to happen. Nintendo is the Disney of video games

Overexposed, reliant on nostalgia, and never quite learning from their mistakes? Yeah, I'm with you there, bro. 

[Soren]

Overexposed, reliant on nostalgia, and never quite learning from their mistakes? Yeah, I'm with you there, bro. 

Good thing Ubisoft is no longer making Assassins Creed games for Wii U.

[broodwars]

Overexposed, reliant on nostalgia, and never quite learning from their mistakes? Yeah, I'm with you there, bro. 

Good thing Ubisoft is no longer making Assassins Creed games for Wii U.

Considering how Ubisoft has driven that franchise into the ground despite pleas for them to stop, good thing, indeed.

[NWR_insanolord]

The problem with that is they've probably got at least one and possibly more Assassin's Creed games that are far enough along in development that they can't just scrap them without taking major losses. If only someone had thought to suggest they not devote half the resources of the company to doing the same thing over and over.

[Soren]

Ugh, I think messed up that Assassins Creed joke. My bad, guys!

[Ian Sane]

Ian just wants Nintendo to be a dude bro game developer and that's never going to happen. Nintendo is the Disney of video games

You're not understanding my Destiny reference.  Destiny sounds like by all accounts to be overhyped **** and I don't want Nintendo to make a Destiny clone.  What I'm saying is that Activision went all in on a new IP.  They're the masters of rehashing the same bullshit again and again like Call of Duty and before that Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater.  But when they did publish a new IP they treated it like a big release with the kind of budget and marketing that a big release gets.  Nintendo tends to rely on their existing IPs for the big games while their new IP tends to get relegated to quirky side titles to fill the release schedule but are not expected to move consoles and tend to get passed off to secondary teams.

My favourite Wii game is Xenoblade because it's ambitious.  It has this huge world to explore and all these details and things to do.  You can tell the devs were passionate about it and the game made no compromises to attract a wider audience.  They just tried to make the best game they could and if you're on board, great, and if it's above your head, go play something else.  It reminds me a lot of N64 era Nintendo when almost every game seemed to be some ambitious project that aimed to be the best game ever made.  And the worst thing is that this grand ambitious game almost didn't get released in the US at all.  Compare Xenoblade to Skyward Sword.  Zelda is historically Nintendo's most ambitious series and yet Skyward Sword felt small and restrained compared to Xenoblade.

From Nintendo I want less NSMB and more Xenoblade in regards to the design and ambition of those titles.  I became a Nintendo fan because they were always so creative and ambitious and not formulaic like everyone else.  Now they're like everyone else so if I have to put up with formulaic product why don't I buy a non-Nintendo console that will at least have more games to choose from?

[NWR_insanolord]

You say that as if Nintendo's not throwing their weight behind Splatoon. You're right that Xenoblade got that treatment, but everything we've seen so far would indicate that they're treating Splatoon like it's a big deal.

[Stogi]

Ian, you have to look elsewhere to find your ambition in titles. In terms of scope, Skyward was pretty small. I will grant you that. But in terms of gameplay, it was huge. Motion control in Zelda? That's a dream come true.

As for the rest of Wii first party games, Super Mario Galaxy was certainly very ambitious and is still my favorite game ever. Metroid Prime 3 was certainly larger, more action packed than any of its predecessors AND it had some of the best Wiimote controls on the system.

But again, I see where you're coming from.

[Mop it up]

I much prefer Nintendo throwing out off-the-wall concepts instead of rehashing what you see elsewhere.

I agree. If I'm forced to choose between an unsuccessful (in the market) Nintendo making unique games vs. a successful Nintendo that makes trite like Destiny, I'll go with the former. Even if they have become formulaic with games like Mario, no one else is really offering me 3D platformers and adventure games that are quite like Zelda, so I'll still take those over the alternative systems out there.

[Triforce Hermit]

If Nintendo treats Splatoon correctly then they have a gold mine on their hands. Its different, its not the same rehashed **** that dominated the last generation of games, and it the goal isn't just kill. It is a very ambitious title. All Nintendo has to do is treat is correctly. This is kinda why Xenoblade didn't do so well. It was ambitious, but they didn't market it at all and the prices on it were outrageous, but even then it did very well.

[Ian Sane]

Ian, you have to look elsewhere to find your ambition in titles. In terms of scope, Skyward was pretty small. I will grant you that. But in terms of gameplay, it was huge. Motion control in Zelda? That's a dream come true.

As for the rest of Wii first party games, Super Mario Galaxy was certainly very ambitious and is still my favorite game ever. Metroid Prime 3 was certainly larger, more action packed than any of its predecessors AND it had some of the best Wiimote controls on the system.

But again, I see where you're coming from.

I personally disagree on Skyward Sword.  Or maybe the intentions were good but I feel that they spent so much time working on the controls that they neglected the rest of the game.

Super Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3 are the sort of games I want from Nintendo but they're getting to be fairly old titles now.  Nintendo hasn't made a 3D Mario even remotely like Galaxy since Galaxy 2.  They've since moved to a fixed view 3D Mario that seems to be a deliberate attempt to make it more like NSMB.  We all know Metroid has since gone to **** (and I'm not sure what Nintendo's intentions were there) but Retro goes from making Metroid Prime games to retro-themed DKC 2D platformers.  See my point?  Mario and Retro Studios both went backwards.  The older games are ironically more ambitious than the newer ones.  That's fucked.

[Nile Boogie Returns]

The older games are ironically more ambitious than the newer ones.  That's fucked.

Isn't a good game simply a good game, regardless of the style/look? I don't get why you think Retro went backwards with DKC:TF. They had a choice of what game they wanted to make and they chose that. Metroid was on the table.  I think I get you. Ambition, expansion and scope are fine qualities to promote but not at the expense of refinement.




And while not owning a WiiU doesn't completely devalue your point, its hard (for me) to justify your stance when by and large the current library of games (WiiU/3ds) is some of Nintendo'd best work in years.


 I might be missing your point.

[Luigi Dude]

I personally disagree on Skyward Sword.  Or maybe the intentions were good but I feel that they spent so much time working on the controls that they neglected the rest of the game.

Skyward Sword has more dungeon content then any Zelda by far and much of that content is based around said motion controls.  Just because the overworld wasn't as large as Xenoblade doesn't mean it wasn't ambitious since that was never the goal.  They even said the goal of Skyward Sword was to make something that was one giant dungeon like experience, hence why all the overworld area's were like dungeons.

It's kind of easy for a game like Xenoblade the have a large world when the actual gameplay in it's world is no where close to as complex as the gameplay in Skyward Sword.  There's no puzzles in the environments that you're interacting with, no maze like structures that require different items to start changing said environment.  The world of Xenoblade only requires the designers to draw something and then call it a day.  The world of Skyward Sword required actual thought into how the puzzles in one area, can effect what going on in other area's.  Not to mention coming up with a lot of unique puzzles for each area that can take advantage of the new items the players keep receiving through out the game as well.  Combined with the fact many of these puzzles are part of the actual environment, yeah, it requires a lot more work to design something like Skyword Sword's world.

This is why the 3D Zelda are still the most unique kind of games out there.  Everything people love to compare 3D Zelda games to are nothing like 3D Zelda's since many lack even the most basic puzzles.  This is why a lot of other 3D games have larger worlds because the designers don't bother with puzzles since those are a lot harder to make, which frees the teams up to make larger worlds.

[Adrock]

The motion controls in Skyward Sword weren't 100% perfect, but they worked for the most part. The annoying thing about it was how Ghirahim in particular would just blocked 99% of your attacks. Even then, that's less the controls and more Nintendo's insistence on an antiquated battle system in which you just hold your shield up until there's a brief attack time window. I mean, Nintendo tried to add some flavor to it by having equipment that could break, but it was far too forgiving. You could mostly just shield up then occasionally dodge. Once a major fight was over, you could just get a new shield.

Personally, Skyward Sword's problem was that there was like 37 irritating bits. A few would have been tolerable, but collectively, it added up. Ambition wasn't really my issue. Rather, the game didn't execute that ambition well.

[Ian Sane]

The older games are ironically more ambitious than the newer ones.  That's fucked.

Isn't a good game simply a good game, regardless of the style/look?

It depends what you're looking for.  Nintendo doesn't often make poor games.  But I became a fan of Nintendo during an era when almost every game they made was ambitious genre-defining stuff.  So that's what I think of when I think of Nintendo.  It's what I want, it's what I expect.  Nintendo pulls enough annoying **** that that level of game design track record was needed to keep me as a fan.

[Stogi]

Ghirahim was easy as long as you knew that he tracked your sword. So if you were to attack outright, he would block it. But if you moved your sword to one direction and tricked him into anticipating an attack from that side, you could switch to another direction and score a hit (actually a couple because he opens up). That's all it was. Oh and also hitting back his daggers and attacking him FIRST just as he lunged at you. It was cake and honestly, brilliant game design.

[Nile Boogie Returns]

It depends what you're looking for.  Nintendo doesn't often make poor games.  But I became a fan of Nintendo during an era when almost every game they made was ambitious genre-defining stuff.  So that's what I think of when I think of Nintendo.  It's what I want, it's what I expect.  Nintendo pulls enough annoying **** that that level of game design track record was needed to keep me as a fan.

Fair enough. So in comparison to "old Nintendo", which current developer / console has what you are looking for, or is that void yet to be filled? I get you want "genre-defining" but I fail to see where Nintendo has failed in that regard, beyond the obvious FPS and GTA's ( joke all you want but LEGO CITY IS AWESOME). Some of the best games in their respective genres have graced either Wii/WiiU or DS/3DS in last 5 years or so. 

Action Game, Action RPG, 2D Side Scroller, Fighting Game, RPG, Adventure Game,  I mean you never see..."ROBERT DUVAL!"

[NWR_insanolord]

I don't think it's possible to be at that level anywhere near that consistently anymore. The games industry has changed and developed too much. It's not a matter of Nintendo being a lesser developer than they were before, the goalposts have just moved so far that no one is capable of that anymore.

[Ian Sane]

It depends what you're looking for.  Nintendo doesn't often make poor games.  But I became a fan of Nintendo during an era when almost every game they made was ambitious genre-defining stuff.  So that's what I think of when I think of Nintendo.  It's what I want, it's what I expect.  Nintendo pulls enough annoying **** that that level of game design track record was needed to keep me as a fan.

Fair enough. So in comparison to "old Nintendo", which current developer / console has what you are looking for, or is that void yet to be filled? I get you want "genre-defining" but I fail to see where Nintendo has failed in that regard, beyond the obvious FPS and GTA's ( joke all you want but LEGO CITY IS AWESOME). Some of the best games in their respective genres have graced either Wii/WiiU or DS/3DS in last 5 years or so. 

Action Game, Action RPG, 2D Side Scroller, Fighting Game, RPG, Adventure Game,  I mean you never see..."ROBERT DUVAL!"

The void has yet to be truly filled, though that doesn't make a Wii U the default purchase.  So I'm going to put up with terrible third party support, last gen hardware, and forced controller gimmicks for a company that no longer seems to be any more special than any other talented developer?  If I'm going to get safe stuff it's better to get it on a console that has better third party support so I have more to choose from.  On the N64 the third party trade off was worth it for the first party games.  If Nintendo is just going to be the safe Mario sequel guys they need better third party support or would work better as a third party developer themselves.  If I'm to buy a console where realistically it's just one dev that I'm buying it for they better be really going all out.

If Nintendo can't be the dev they once were then they need to become a good console maker.  They've been a **** console maker since the N64 and relied on being a superhuman game developer to balance that out.  Now they're merely a decent developer and an even shittier console maker.  Where's the selling point there?  "It's like the N64, but everything's worse!"  No wonder no one's buying it.

[Nile Boogie Returns]

Well my friend, as a multi-console owner myself I can safely say that this generation of Nintendo has already surpassed the N64 in almost every way not called Mario 64 and OOT.


I wish the Wii U had more ram available for the game. 1Gb of ram is just not enough but I would say that the power gap in-between the Ps4 and the Wii U is the least of Nintendo's worries.  Best New-Gen lineup by far and that doesn't look to change over the next 12 months if trends continue.

[Evan_B]

I would argue Nintendo HAS been going all out with Wii U, they're pumping out some quality stuff for the system and trying to hit every base they can.

The reason this won't work is because the Wii U is a console that is deliberately difficult to develop for so even if he Wii U managed to hit PS4 sales numbers (which is not happening) Devs still would rather work on underpowered PCs.

Strangely enough, I see Nintendo reaching out to many indies nowadays which is interesting. These Devs aren't making masterpieces here but I think Nintendo has been very open about the Wii U in the case that they do just that.

[rlse9]

The place Nintendo should go from here is back in time a couple weeks and make the deluxe bundle with Nintendoland and Mario 3D World a Black Friday deal everywhere for $250 with a store gift card, instead of it being $250 at Target in a week.  I think at the right price, they could have done very well this holiday season.  The lineup at this point is good, especially if it's a second system like it will be for most people.  But while the deals on the X-Box One were really good and it sounds like moved a ton of consoles, Nintendo just let the Wii U sit around at full price.  Maybe Smash and Amiibo helped them sell a good amount of consoles but the lack of deals this holiday season seems like it was a missed opportunity.

As far as what I'd like to see, Animal Crossing is at the top of the list.  It's the perfect game for having off TV play.  I'm excited about several of the games they've already announced, just supplement the list with a few surprises and maybe some collaborations with other companies, like they did with Hyrule Warriors, to add to the list of releases and I'll be happy.  I know it'll never happen but I'd love to see a Mario HD collection with Mario 64, Sunshine, and the Galaxy games.

[Adrock]

I went to Target today and Wii U was sold out. The only rational explanation for this is that I accidentally and momentarily stepped into an alternate universe where this actually happens. People were also wearing hats on their feet and hamburgers were eating people. I'm glad I somehow got the hell out of there.

But seriously, Wii U really was sold out. Granted, this was one retailer, but I'll take it as a good sign. It might have taken two years, but Nintendo finally has enough games to make the console desirable.

[Luigi Dude]

From what I've noticed from talking to gamers around where I live, Smash Bros seems to be the game that pushed many into finally buying the system.  Yeah there's still a lot of them that don't care about Nintendo, but these are the Call of Duty/GTA/Madden lovers who never really cared for the Wii or Gamecube either.  The people who still had an interest for Nintendo and owned the previous systems but hadn't bought a Wii U yet, the general sentiment was they were waiting until Smash Bros.

Of course this is just from around where I live so I have no idea what the situation is like in the rest of North America.  Still I wouldn't be surprised if it's a similar situation else where since Smash Bros did have way more hype among core Nintendo fans then any other game released by far.

[Mop it up]

I've seen stores sell out of Wii U systems in the previous two holidays, so I think everything just sells around the holidays regardless of what it is. If sales continue into the first months of next year, then it's more than just a usual holiday spike.

[Ian Sane]

I've observed a different Wii U sell out scenario.  My local Wal-Mart had no Wii U consoles in stock for months until the Mario Kart 8 bundle came out and they've been back in stock ever since.  It was like the Wii U wasn't selling well enough for that Wal-Mart to justify refilling their stock and now demand has increased where they will refill it.

[Mop it up]

For the first time, I actually saw a Smash Bros. ad last night... for the 3DS version. It didn't mention the Wii U version at all.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

The whole time Gamecube was on sale I only ever saw one ad for it one time, on G4. It was for Super Mario Sunshine. The only Wii U add I saw was when DKC:TP was brand new, it was on Nickelodeon I think, say it flipping the channels. Nintendo is either not very effective in their advertising or they really do believe their audience is mostly children.