Topic: Episode 247: You Can Lead a Man to the Beam, But...

[Yoshidious]

We reunite to review E3, answer tons of emails, and share dirty jokes.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/26866

It's so good to be back! We've got the complete quartet ready for your listening pleasure. Jon and Greg have been keeping fairly busy these past two weeks while James and Jonny were goofing off at E3. To get everyone caught up, we recorded this lengthy, three-segment episode just for you! It kicks off with a recap of E3 itself, including our overall evaluations of Nintendo's performance and the future of both 3DS and Wii U. We also get a perspective of the show from the home-bound (and frankly, better) half of RFN.

In the middle, we turn in a typical but meaty New Business with two weeks' worth of games, including our first entries from the 3DS eShop. Jon's infamous Chrono Train rolls into the station, and he ponders the meaning of his own existence following the completion of this life-long gaming goal. Greg reports on X-Scape, the weird DSiWare game about 3D space tanks that is now available through the 3DS eShop; he also plays Link's Awakening for the first time and drops premature impressions on Ocarina of Time 3D! James eschews new-fangled systems to visit Lunar Knights on (2)DS, the spiritual successor to Boktai from Kojima Productions. Jonny ends with a very brief jaunt through Super Mario Land, the delirious AlphaBounce (more DSiWare -- is this a new record?). He also searches for the Japanese word for "bro" to describe Platinum's third-person shooter, Vanquish.

Hey! You guys and gals wrote a boatload of questions about E3, Wii U, 3DS, Skyward Sword, and more Wii U, so we answered as many as we could in a rousing edition of Listener Mail! Gird your loins for this massive dose of RFN-derived opiates because we want to make you see fantastical visions and then fall asleep. You'll need that energy for next week, when we finally complete the Perfect Dark edition of RetroActive! The forum thread is still going strong, and you have one last chance to post your comments for a chance to be read on the show! See you next week. PEACE.

[Crimm]

What kind of beam was it?

[NWR_Lindy]

The most amusing aspect of this recording for me was the fact that my internet dropped for a good three minutes, causing me to have to completely drop and re-join the call, and nobody even noticed.

[Jonnyboy117]

I'm always saying you should talk more, and that just proves it!

[ShyGuy]

Lindy needs to drop more old school rap references throughout the podcast.

I wish I was a little bit taller, I wish I was a baller...

[Retro Deckades]

What kind of beam was it?

MAN!

[FZeroBoyo]

Have yet to listen, as I save the podcasts for work...


But I think Lindy deserves a round of applause for finally beating Chrono Trigger.  :

[KDR_11k]

The powerup avalanche in Alpha Bounce is reduced as you move further from the starting point. On Hard you won't even find avalanches near the start.

So Vanquish is easy on Easy? It's fucking hard on Hard. I'm stuck at a battle with two Russian power armors. Just gets too fucking hard there.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Great job again this week, guys!

Risposte ...

1. I wouldn't even care if Nintendo's Wii U sizzle reel had Sony/MS watermarks on the video.  The idea was to see what games will be coming to the platform, not to conduct pixel-by-pixel comparisons.

2. I'm thinking $300 for the new console.  No way are they gonna launch a new console at the same price as their newest handheld.  mmmmmaaaaybe $350 if the production cost is high?

3. The Wii U is a bad name.  Does anyone with insight on the matter think there is ANY chance they could change it before launch? 10%? 5%?? 1%??? Please??
Otherwise, just gotta move on ...

4. I love Greg's football references.

5. Jonny, that's a brilliant theory to confirm backwards compatibility streamed to the new controller.  But let's not forget, "Wii U" games could use the wiimotes as their primary input if they developer so chooses.  So, even streaming a "Wii U" game to that controller might require the sensor bar, right?

6. SM3DS looks great to me.  To be fair, the Tanooki/racoon suits are so dear to my heart that it would probably look good even if Mario put one on and just took a nap for 4 hours.  Regardless, "sidescrolling with depth" (as DKCR, or... other games, have shown) does sound like an EVEN MORE appealing route for that game.  It actually makes me a bit down on the game now because no matter how good it is I'll be wishing they had taken that approach instead!

7.  I, too, beat Chrono Trigger for the first time about a week or so ago.  Lindy is absolutely right! The game is entirely "back heavy"!! This explains why over the years I had started that game about 5 times but never found the motivation to continue it!  This, time, largely because of Lindy and RFN, I decided to push through no matter what.  I'm glad I did.  As I progressed in the game I found that the narrative threads started to weave together in a meaningful way and my initial criticisms that this was just a bunch of cool ideas in a blender dissipated.  Ayla "FTW"!! (as the kids say).

8. I had no idea until Friday how much of a visual overhaul OoT3D is.  I pay dang close attention to gaming news but the sum of the gaming media I've read was "well, it's great cuz it's OoT, but still just another lazy Nintendo rehash." 

N64 young Link = dork.  3DS young Link = hero of time.  This game is officially on my "to buy" list.

9. I owned a GameBoy before an NES.  Man, as a kid I remember beating Super Mario Land but I don't remember it being as quick as you guys describe!! Maybe my perceptions as a child were skewed.  I can see my GameBoy from where I'm sitting.  Maybe I should give it another go!!

10. I like (nearly) all the Megaman platformers (not X7) but it's great to hear someone voice any kind of respect for MM6!! Seems that on the rare occasions it comes up people just start chuckling and are like "man, Capcom sure was out of ideas by then!"

Where as I still maintain that "Guts Man" is a stretch, and that was game ONE.

11. Vanquish looks like one of the coolest shooters.  I give the shooter genre a lot of flak for, quite honestly, just looking like the same rehashed tripe over and over.  But Vanquish, perhaps because of its Japanese influence, looks unique, stylish, creative and focused much more on fun gameplay than virtual dick-wagging.  The knee-sliding bit looks a little ... dumb ... but at least it's trying!

12. I love hearing Jonny talk when he's got something he's enthusiastic about (streetpass in this case). That sort of spirit is what's so absent in the jaded majority of game discussion.  I know it can't (and shouldn't) be forced, but never lose it.

13. I have only played the circle pads for a few minutes while demoing the 3DS.  But my reaction is that it's my favorite stick of all time.  Admittedly, I don't think there was a PS2 game where I ever had to get so profecient with dual-analogs that I was ruined for any other kind of stick or control method.  But man, the circle pad just feels like I have so much better ....... control.

14.  Hey! I'M NinSage! Thanks for reading my letter, fellas.

After finishing Monster Tale I was SO pleased with the gameplay and the setting and the concepts BUT... there were some glaring flaws.

It was too short, and the backtracking only padded the length with lameness.  The evolution system begs for a new game+ since I beat the game having only unlocked about 40% of the evolutions and very few were entirely leveled up.

I'd still love to see the franchise continue (and improve) though.  As you mentioned, WiiUWare (good god, there are tongue twister's easier than that) might be the perfect place for it.  Make it happen, DreamRift!

15. "Chris" brings up a great point about the HD/3D double standards.  People shouldn't have expected the 3DS to produce holograms.  It's just a visual depth illusion to "look cool."

My take on the double standard is that many folks (gamers/game media) used to say Wii games were UNPLAYABLE because they weren't in HD.  Where as no one (including Nintendo) is saying that the 3DS makes 2D games UNPLAYABLE.

Also, let's not forget that with the 3DS, Nintendo got the hype train rolling; but, it was the first few hundred people who tried the system that sent the hype train barreling off its tracks.

~~~

Wow.  15 points of discussion? Even I think that's too many.

[Jonnyboy117]

Wii's lack of HD output came at a very bad time, because a huge part of the population (especially active gamers and other tech-savvy consumers) started buying HDTVs around 2006-2007. Wii graphics don't translate well to many HDTVs, especially if you're using the composite cables that come with the system. Remember that Nintendo never even sold their official component cables in stores. Obviously terms like "unplayable" are exaggerations, but the comparison to Xbox 360 and PS3 was much more unfavorable than it would have been even one year earlier, when most people would have been playing any system on an SDTV.


None of this applies to 3DS, but there is a stigma about 3D displays due to bad experiences in theaters and with overpriced TVs. Also, keep in mind that the individual variance of someone's ability to see and appreciate 3D is higher than that of HD, because it is based on more factors. Some are easy to fix, like position or the slider. Some are hard to fix, like bad vision or motion sickness (which could be linked).

[Chocobo_Rider]

Wii's lack of HD output came at a very bad time, because a huge part of the population (especially active gamers and other tech-savvy consumers) started buying HDTVs around 2006-2007. Wii graphics don't translate well to many HDTVs, especially if you're using the composite cables that come with the system. Remember that Nintendo never even sold their official component cables in stores. Obviously terms like "unplayable" are exaggerations, but the comparison to Xbox 360 and PS3 was much more unfavorable than it would have been even one year earlier, when most people would have been playing any system on an SDTV.


None of this applies to 3DS, but there is a stigma about 3D displays due to bad experiences in theaters and with overpriced TVs. Also, keep in mind that the individual variance of someone's ability to see and appreciate 3D is higher than that of HD, because it is based on more factors. Some are easy to fix, like position or the slider. Some are hard to fix, like bad vision or motion sickness (which could be linked).

I agree 100% with this post.

I, too, noticed a drop off in clarity when I got my HDTV in late 2008.  I went out and bought the component cables because we got the HDMI cable for free and I thought I could justify it.  It didn't make much difference.  But it's ok, because I was already able to find beauty in Wii graphics, Gamecube graphics, PS2 graphics, PSX graphics, ... NES graphics, Gameboy graphics.

Atari graphics? I guess that's where I draw the line. =)

I also have had very bad experiences with 3D in theaters.  I can't stand how the glasses make the image darker.  On 3DTVs it seems the glasses AND the display make the image darker?  I know you guys were saying something about that this week during the podcast.

Plus, as someone who already wears corrective glasses, 3D glasses are a real comfort issue, and make it even harder to use them for optimal effect.

PS - I tried to play Xexyz with a friend last week since I own it but never beat it.  We bopped around for a few minutes and then he felt it was too bat-sh*t crazy to continue.  Someday I'll play it.

I was going through our shelf of games and discovered that my wife has Perfect Dark on N64.  I mentioned to her that I found it and she was like "let's play right now!"  Maybe we'll see if we can get anywhere before your retroactivity ends.

[NWR_Lindy]

I also think that the lukewarm reception of 3D on consoles has poisoned the waters for the 3DS to a degree. I 'm sure there are people out there saying, "3D is unimpressive on a large TV, so why should I bother with it on a handheld?"

[yoshi1001]

Jonny, it's interesting that you mentioned the Green Lantern trailer. I didn't think the 3D in that video was as good as Nintendo's E3 videos, probably because Nintendo had more familiarity with the 3DS (the movie trailer was probably just converted from the theater version).

[broodwars]

I think the 3DS is still waiting for its "James Cameron's Avatar": the game that shows that the much-hyped 3D display is actually worth the $250 price tag.  My view on 3D right now is simple: I despise it, outside of specific venues such as theme park attractions (Muppetvision 3D, for example) designed to complement and enhance it.  I think it's a cheap gimmick that the entertainment industry has tried and failed to make people care about since the 50s, and it hasn't gotten any better now (in fact, the 3DS's 3D gives me headaches, so it may have gotten worse).  At least I can take some pleasure in seeing that the public's acceptance of 3D movies has rapidly declined over the past few years, so maybe it'll die again for a while.  That you can experience this gimmick without glasses doesn't make me care any more unless there's a legitimate gameplay component to it: the way you play the game changes because of how you view the image.  So far, we haven't gotten that with the 3DS, and since Nintendo has thoroughly bragged about the 3D display and its potential for game design evolution, I think the handheld's getting the criticism it deserves.

And incidentally, it's not a double-standard to mock the 3DS for not doing anything useful with its 3rd dimension while simultaneously praising the visual fidelity of HD.  One was praised as a revolutionary new way to play games, while the other was praised as an awe-inspiring new level of clarity, color, and fidelity to your games.  The latter delivered on what it promised, and we're still waiting on the former.  It's also worth noting that the trade-off for this so-called "revolutionary way of playing games" in the 3rd dimension is a significant drop-off in the device's performance due to needing to render each frame twice.  That's a fact about how we render 3D images that will never change, no matter the hardware (which is why I don't see the point in supporting 3D on PS3 either).  HD games render at the same performance level on any TV supporting the appropriate resolution you can find.

[Halbred]

MM6 gets a lot of hate because it's so gimmicky. Capcom hadn't run out of ideas, it's just that they piled so many unusual ideas into their last NES Mega Man game. It's not a bad game by any means, it just doesn't feel anything like the other Mega Man games. But I certainly hope it hits the VC so that people can play them all with normal controls (unlike the reversed Collection controls).

I'd also like to bring up the point that I was a bit disappointed in the boobage in Dead or Alive: Dimensions. I expected a level of camp on par with DoA2: Hardcore, but I got something more akin to DoA4, which is positively conservative by comparison. Well, at least you can shake the 3DS and get some jiggle going in the photography mode.

The above statement is entirely true.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@ broodwars

This should be your avatar: http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x408/Supaphatbass/muppets_old_men.jpg

@ Halbred

How is MM6 gimmicky? Are you saying it's cool when a robot dog transforms into a submarine or a hoverboard but gimmicky when it's a suit of armor?

... it just doesn't feel anything like the other Mega Man games.

*head explodes*

Please tell us how the difference in "feel" between MM1 and MM2 is less drastic than 6 and every other game in the series.

[broodwars]

@ broodwars

This should be your avatar: http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x408/Supaphatbass/muppets_old_men.jpg

I see.  Well, if we're going to find it ok to make gross generalizations, this avatar should be yours then: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2006/07/fanboy.jpg

(Yeah, I tried to find a Muppets one to match yours, but to be honest I have trouble finding a Muppet that fits. Maybe Rowlf or Gonzo?  And incidentally, Waldorf and Statler were actually my favorite characters in the Muppet Show.  )

[Chocobo_Rider]

@ broodwars

Oh noes!! I enjoy games much more than I complain about them!  I must be one of those awful "fanboys"!

[broodwars]

@ broodwars

Oh noes!! I enjoy games much more than I complain about them!  I must be one of those awful "fanboys"!

Dude, I'm not going to get into this argument with you (especially since, if you actually read my post, you'd have noticed I marked it and your post as "gross generalizations" with a smirk that you actually picked 2 of my favorite Muppets in your satire).  It's just not worth my time and energy to argue about our respective tastes in gaming, especially since I feel no need to defend my own.

[KDR_11k]

Meh, 3D adds nothing to games, I don't get any headaches or other problems from it but it's not a benefit either.

[ShyGuy]

Thanks for answering my analog control question. Jonny sounds like he doesn't like the "slide pads" but the way he describes it how he holds the sticks is weird.

James has a more wait and see approach and it didn't seem to bother him.

I think I will be able to deal with the Wii U controls since I like the 3DS analog pad, even though I didn't like the PSP nub.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

Seems like as good a time as any to ask. With few exceptions, I don't particularly like JRPGs. Should I bother trying Chrono Trigger? It's so revered that it's tempting. From the sounds of things, though, it doesn't align with my tastes at all. Yeah, the investment wouldn't be much when it's now out on Virtual Console, but Jon's comments about the slow start have me worried that I'd give up with it quickly.

[broodwars]

Seems like as good a time as any to ask. With few exceptions, I don't particularly like JRPGs. Should I bother trying Chrono Trigger? It's so revered that it's tempting. From the sounds of things, though, it doesn't align with my tastes at all. Yeah, the investment wouldn't be much when it's now out on Virtual Console, but Jon's comments about the slow start have me worried that I'd give up with it quickly.

I think Jon's exaggerating Chrono Trigger's "slow start", personally.  It's about 5 minutes long, unless you literally spend 10 hours at the opening Millennial Fair like he did.  As soon as time travel is introduced into the story, the game takes off and never looks back.  I've heard a lot of people say they like Chrono Trigger despite not being into RPGs, so it may very well appeal to you.  Give it a try.  At worst, you payed $8 for one of the best games of all time (my personal favorite) and didn't like it.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@ Killer_Man_Jaro / broodwars

I don't think the slow start Lindy and I (above) refer to is simply the fair at the beginning of the game.

For me, even after acquiring all the cast members in the various time periods, I still felt the game lacked narrative threads that would tie these events together.  It wasn't until I got to about the half-way point and some side quests got done that I found they started fleshing out the characters' backstories and illustrated how they all relate to each other.

At THAT point, I was glad I was playing the game.

[Jonnyboy117]

You know, less than two hours into the game, there is a cut-scene that literally depicts how characters are related to each other across the gulf of time. I think some people here are holding Chrono Trigger up to some unreasonable standard for character development. Tell me something about Rosa from FFIV, beyond her love for Cecil. Go on, I'll wait here.