Author Topic: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)  (Read 23723 times)

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Offline Mop it up

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2009, 09:45:11 PM »
Should I change the topic title or should I report you all for going off-topic?  :P

Offline Stratos

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2009, 10:18:58 PM »
Hey, I tried to move it back with my Strong Bad comment.
That still has the best chance I believe.

You know, Space Invaders Get Even could as well considering how large it is. I still want to try it soon.
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Offline Pale

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2009, 11:00:21 PM »
I didn't ridicule anyone really. I just initially stated that I have the exact opposite opinion and thought it was funny.

The closest I came to ridiculing someone was when I fired back at Morari's "stupid" comment.

I'm not attacking anyone here, I just personally think digital distribution can save a lot of people some stress if they learn to stop worrying so much. Wow, that sentence is like an infinite loop or something. =P  You get my drift.

And I was very close to not bringing up the environment thing because I knew it would elicit it's own kind of backlash.  You'll notice it was the last reason I mentioned... I think the others are much more important.

I also don't buy the excuse that we'd be giving distributors too much power.  It's not like enabling the reselling of used games didn't create another monopoly that totally takes advantage of people or anything...

Publishers have controlled the price of games for years and they still do.  Digital distribution would change nothing... well maybe it would keep the huge, mall based pawn shop owners from lining their pockets.

We aren't going to solve this debate, but I still say the benefits far outweigh the one risk.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 11:02:08 PM by Pale »
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Offline Morari

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2009, 11:22:08 PM »
The closest I came to ridiculing someone was when I fired back at Morari's "stupid" comment.

I don't know that you had to "fire back", per say. The comment wasn't directed at you. It was merely an extension of the prior sentence, going on to state that people who want digital distribution over physical media exclusively are stupid. Now though it wasn't mentioned, I don't think this purely because I like how discs are shiny or something. I merely believe that relinquishing control for the sake of "convenience" is stupid no matter what the form.

I won't go on however, as you've clearly made up your mind and I have nothing to gain by (attempting to) change it. While some of your points are definitely great pros, they in no way make up for the inevitability that all digitally acquired games will be worthless and unplayable. It's not an if, it's a when. This isn't paranoia, this is foresight. Besides, in a world like todays', people could definitely stand to be a little more paranoid.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2009, 11:37:31 PM »
I didn't ridicule anyone really. I just initially stated that I have the exact opposite opinion and thought it was funny.
You're implying that I'm paranoid and stupid because my opinion differs from yours, you think my very opinion is laughable, and you don't even understand my reasoning for preferring physical games over downloads. That hardly seems like respectable behavior to me. I'm not even going to try to explain my thoughts in more detail because it seems highly unlikely you'd comprehend it, and I'm not trying to say that digital distribution is evil like you seem to think.

I'm not attacking anyone here, I just personally think digital distribution can save a lot of people some stress if they learn to stop worrying so much.
It would save people some stress if they stopped worrying about global warming too, but I guess it is best to ignore potential problems and hope they go away rather than study them closely and find ways to prevent them should they arise.

None of this matters for the topic at hand. You gave your opinion that you don't think WiiWare games should be released on disc, and that's the end of that.

Offline Pale

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2009, 11:54:12 PM »
Everyone always ends up angry... meh... can't please them all anyone I guess.

I am curious about one thing... what part of why you prefer them aren't I understanding?
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Offline Pale

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2009, 12:00:37 AM »
Also, to Morari:

I'm not arguing that they wouldn't become worthless at some point... I'm arguing that, for me anyway, fixed media games become worthless too.  My NES died. I tried to keep buying a new one, but they kept dying.  Then half my games wouldn't play anymore.

The disc drive in both my Cube and Q died. I could keep rebuying that system too if I wanted but that's a pain in the rear.  Thankfully the Wii plays Cube games, and I'm hoping that I will be saying the same thing about VC and WiiWare games for Nintendo's systems to come.


As a funny aside, it's kind of humorless to think that the thing that died on both of my Cube systems wouldn't have mattered in a digital distribution world. ;)


Also, I have somewhat of a vested interest in promoting the glory of downloadable games too... =P  As if it actually becomes popular then all the companies will keep their services up, thus mitigating the "they could go away" fear.


And I'm not gonna keep railing on this I swear but I thought I should link my original blog post in case someone missed it.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=16087
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2009, 12:25:32 AM »
My main issue with downloadable content is the price. Make them cheaper than retail games (i.e. $50 retail, $40 to download instead) and I will be more willing to embrace them.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: WiiWare games should be released on disc.
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2009, 01:29:15 AM »
I am curious about one thing... what part of why you prefer them aren't I understanding?
Everything you say about digital distribution seems to be in response to what problems might occur if it became the only form of distribution. While the potential problems are a concern of mine, they are all "what if" situations so they aren't really that big of a factor.

The main reason, it is one which is difficult for me to explain, and therefore one which I believe isn't easy to understand. It is about ownership, and even if that's the only reason (which it isn't), for me it is big enough to outweigh any benefit of digital distribution. Being able to sell a game, that is very important to me. If I couldn't have sold off Boom Blox, I would have been very distraught, but instead I rid myself of it and moved on. Yes, it creates a chance for people to capitalize on used games, but so what? Isn't that better than getting stuck with a bad game? If Nintendo's games are any indication, it hasn't hurt their business. You know what people do with the money they get from selling their games? They buy more games. Capitalism works.

Ownership, taken a step further, is collectorism. This is what I “suffer” from, you might say. Collecting things probably stems from the primitive man, where people collected food and other necessities for survival. When I buy something, I want to fully enjoy it. Having it as a physical object means I know it’s mine to do whatever I want with. I like to display my games, they are a part of the atmosphere of my gaming room. I want to see them all lined up in all of their glory, it helps my gaming mood. I like to browse my shelves when I’m picking out what I want to play. Sometimes seeing the cover art can remind me of what I like about a particular game and make me decide to play it. I want to hold it in my hands, I want to insert it into the system. Maybe I'll put the game in backwards or upside-down because I'm not paying attention, but that just adds some lawls. This is all part of my gaming experience, it goes beyond the simple act of playing.

You say looking for rare games causes stress, but I believe you’re looking at it in a cynical way. Is it stressful to hunt down old games? Sure, it can be. But the thrill of the hunt is a part of the excitement and accomplishment of owning games. There is no greater feeling than rummaging through a bin of worthless N64 sports games and coming across a game I’ve been going after for months. My eyes swell. My arms are trembling with anticipation as I bring it to the counter to pay for it. My stomach churns with excitement as I pop it into my system when I get home. Digital distribution has none of that thrill. It’s similar to shopping on eBay where everything is instantly accessible, which I used to avoid like the plague but these days I have pretty much no other choice. In all honestly, I am kind of looking forward to searching for all of the Wii games I missed once the next Nintendo system is released (or sooner, depending on when that is). It’ll be a shame if I can’t add WiiWare games to the list.

As for Virtual Console: This may sound weird, but… One part of playing older games is nostalgia. Whenever I pop in something like Perfect Dark, I am flooded with many fond memories of playing it with my friends. Whenever I slide in Mega Man II, I recall challenging my brother to see who could beat each stage the fastest. I recently acquired Sonic Mega Collection for GameCube, the Sonic games being some I enjoyed as a child. As I play them, the memories aren’t really coming back to me. I know they are there, but they just aren’t being triggered.

Now I know Sonic is a compilation, but it has the same principle as downloads: it isn’t the original. Why does this matter? Because it does not have the same scent. Cartridge games, they have a unique scent of plastic and silicon, and scent is the strongest sense tied to memory. As strange as it seems, taking a whiff of a game before I begin to play it helps those memories come back to me. Each system’s cartridges and discs have their own unique aroma as well, and I could identify them blindfolded without handling them. It would be more difficult to make memories with a digital copy of a new game; their most distinguishing characteristic has been removed.

That’s why I’ll always prefer physical games. I know I drifted off into collectorism there, but that’s not really unrelated. Because you are in favour of digital downloads then I don't think ownership is something that is very important to you. And that's fine, people are different. But why must there be only one solution? Does it really matter why someone prefers one form of media over the other? Why can't the two co-exist?

Offline KDR_11k

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Without being able to buy used games, there will never be price drops because there's no need for them. Games will never go on sale either because there won't be retailer specials.

Lolwut? Last I checked PC games don't get sold used either yet they drop in price the fastest of all gaming systems (prices adjust to demand, without used sales the demand still drops off as the game ages). As for specials, Orange Box, 20€ off.

Offline Ian Sane

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It's not like enabling the reselling of used games didn't create another monopoly that totally takes advantage of people or anything...

You mean Gamestop?  There is no such monopoly.  Now in some areas that may be the only physical store that sells used games (I fortunately do not live in such an area; and doesn't EVERY town have a Blockbuster?).  But in the internet age there are no regional monopolies.  There's always eBay.  In that case you don't have to even support a big chain store.  It's just some guy selling this game that he's no longer interested in.  In a digital only model that option no longer exists.

Physical copies ensure that it always exists and, though it can sometimes be costly or difficult, you can always replace your game.  You're not at the mercy of a company that decides whether or not the game is available for sale or whether or not they will actually provide the accurate experience and not change something or do a lousy emulation job.  And let's not forget legal complications.  I can't go buy Goldeneye on the VC.  Know why?  Because the rights to that game are in limbo due to the publisher and developer splitting up and the rights to the IP being owned by a third company.  This sort of thing happens in a digital only environment and you're **** out of luck.  The game gets deleted from your hard drive and there is no copy of the game to seek out at the flea market.  That game is GONE.

In the grand scheme of things it's not a huge deal but I find that a bit worrying.  There are old TV shows and films that no longer exist because the parent company neglected them (or often intentional destroyed them) and since they come from a time period where no commercially available physical copy existed, they're gone.  With physical copies you don't have to trust anyone.  The probability is such that working copies will remain, just because they were released to the public in such a large quantity.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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I don't see why this needs to be a fight. There are huge technical hurdles in place (even on the "hardcore" 360 there are 10 million consoles that aren't even connected to the internet, let alone having the means to download full retail games) that mean we're a long way off from a point at which it's feasible for content providers to go to a digital-only model in anything except music, and in the meantime we can have both digital and physical options and you can go with whichever you prefer.
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Offline Ian Sane

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I don't see why this needs to be a fight. There are huge technical hurdles in place (even on the "hardcore" 360 there are 10 million consoles that aren't even connected to the internet, let alone having the means to download full retail games) that mean we're a long way off from a point at which it's feasible for content providers to go to a digital-only model in anything except music, and in the meantime we can have both digital and physical options and you can go with whichever you prefer.

You're right.  Realistically this isn't going to happen in my life time so I don't really have to worry about it.  And if it does I'll probably be a geezer and not really have the same interests and priorities I have now.  I do find though that I feel very detached from the world, like I'm the last of one generation and those only a few years younger than me are the first of another.  Is it a cause of technology changing so quickly?  Does the world change so fast now that we can have generation gaps that are only like five years apart?

Offline Dirk Temporo

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It's like you go out of your way to post the most absurd, unlikely, and completely pointless ideas in the world. I swear, every single post I've seen you make in the last two months has been something ridiculous.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Ian is a demographic of one.

Offline Mop it up

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Lolwut? Last I checked PC games don't get sold used either yet they drop in price the fastest of all gaming systems (prices adjust to demand, without used sales the demand still drops off as the game ages). As for specials, Orange Box, 20€ off.
PC games are a different market. There have been no price drops or special sales on WiiWare and Virtual Console games, and Nintendo have stated their position that they won't ever be offering price drops.

Offline EasyCure

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Lolwut? Last I checked PC games don't get sold used either yet they drop in price the fastest of all gaming systems (prices adjust to demand, without used sales the demand still drops off as the game ages). As for specials, Orange Box, 20€ off.
PC games are a different market. There have been no price drops or special sales on WiiWare and Virtual Console games, and Nintendo have stated their position that they won't ever be offering price drops.

SHHHHHHHHHH! You'll get him started again..

I still find Nintendo's insistence on revealing publicly that they have no plans for a price cut insulting and arrogant.  Yeah Iwata says it much nicer than Kutaragi but the message is still largely the same.  They don't have to slash prices but I'd prefer that their decision to do that remain private.  I suspect every company is trying to bleed every last dime out of their customers but I'd rather just assume they're doing that behind closed doors and not have them tell it to me outright.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 05:44:39 PM by EasyCure »
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Offline Mop it up

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Oh dirty floors, you're right!
Forget I said anything, PC gaming is no different... except that it is different in that it's the best form of gaming. :)

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Offline TJ Spyke

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Oh dirty floors, you're right!
Forget I said anything, PC gaming is no different... except that it is different in that it's the best form of gaming. :)

Uh-huh, and that is why almost all PC games belong to a small amount of genres and why almost all PC games are down in sales.

Anyways, I hope digital distribution never becomes the only method of selling games as that would basically be the death of the industry.
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Offline Mop it up

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Forget I said anything, PC gaming is no different... except that it is different in that it's the best form of gaming. :)
Uh-huh, and that is why almost all PC games belong to a small amount of genres and why almost all PC games are down in sales.
I was just saying that so as not to anger the PC-lovers of this board, I don't actually believe it.

Offline Stratos

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You're right.  Realistically this isn't going to happen in my life time so I don't really have to worry about it.  And if it does I'll probably be a geezer and not really have the same interests and priorities I have now.  I do find though that I feel very detached from the world, like I'm the last of one generation and those only a few years younger than me are the first of another.  Is it a cause of technology changing so quickly?  Does the world change so fast now that we can have generation gaps that are only like five years apart?

I know what you mean, Ian. I feel there are broader and broader gaps between me and people younger than me. Texting, Twitter, what next? I just want to talk to people face to face.

Is it bad that I tease high schoolers I know about the absurdity and needlessness of texting? I think it's funny when I basically show them that it's glorified emailing and the go "you still email? just message people in facebook/myspace".

@Mop it up
If we were neighbors in real life then I think we would be having trips every weekend together to brows garage sales and second hand outlet stores for old games. I love doing that and wish I had someone who would enjoy coming with me in my area.

There is a joy in stumbling across an old working NES or Atari and a dozen games. I almost got an Atari and 30 games that way but I left to another part of the store and came back and it was already grabbed. Too slow, I learned my lesson.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Anyways, I hope digital distribution never becomes the only method of selling games as that would basically be the death of the industry.

I think that depends on when it's done. If we see more general use of digital distribution in other media as well (looks likely) it may end up being viable as the only method of distribution because people are already used to it from movies, music, etc.

BTW, the PC's genre limitation seems less severe than the HD consoles' since everything that comes out is cross platform anyway and the HD consoles aren't exactly genre rich either.

Offline Mop it up

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I know what you mean, Ian. I feel there are broader and broader gaps between me and people younger than me.
I'm younger than both you and Ian and even I feel like I'm a decaying old corpse. I don't even own a cellular phone so I'm sure you can imagine the flak I receive because of that. It is kind of embarrassing whenever somebody hands me a cellular phone and I can't even figure out how to use it. I also have a pocket watch instead of a wristwatch, though I suppose people don't really carry watches anymore because of all of the doodads and thingamajigs out there which have a clock.

If we were neighbors in real life then I think we would be having trips every weekend together to browse garage sales and second hand outlet stores for old games. I love doing that and wish I had someone who would enjoy coming with me in my area.
I'm too lazy to get up off the couch to fetch the TV remote, don't count on me moving across the country anytime soon. :) There's only one independent game store around here and it is ridiculously overpriced, I don't know how they stay in business. I mean, we're talking $10 for Super Mario Brothers expensive, a game which EB Games sold for 29 cents. It's too bad EB was absorbed by GameStop, they were such a better store...

The thought of digital distribution taking over is quite a frightening one, to think I'd never again experience the joy of shopping is very scary indeed. I love to shop! Browsing a list of products on a website is in no way as exhilarating as browsing the aisles of a physical store. Though I suppose I wouldn't have to worry about getting any weird looks after spending an hour in a store and walking out with nothing.

I almost got an Atari and 30 games that way but I left to another part of the store and came back and it was already grabbed. Too slow, I learned my lesson.
It seems we all learn that lesson the hard way. If you find a deal like that, grab it immediately! Don't be afraid to slap away anyone else who reaches for it!

Offline Smash_Brother

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In the interest of rerailing this thread a bit:

1. Digital downloads are amazing because they remove the biggest barriers to entry when it comes to developing a product. There are game developers right now who would not be game developers at all if not for WiiWare.

2. A compilation disc of WiiWare's best games would be nothing shy of awesome. The amount of money the disc sells for could easily be the same price all of the games would sell for in stores.

3. Steam allows you to resell your copy of a game you purchased through their online store (to another Steam user).

4. Pale's point about games no longer being available on a console because the console itself is dead is a completely valid one. You may have paid $50 for SMB3 at one point (or your parents did) but you now have the option to pay $5 for it on a completely new piece of hardware without the hassle of finding a working NES or hooking a NES up to your TV to play it. Really, it's $5. Get over it.

5. Digital distribution will not be the death of the industry. Steam is basically keeping PC gaming alive right now and it's entirely through digital downloads. Remove Steam from the picture and all you're left with is WoW.

If you're frightened that your games may one day "go away", I think you need to seriously look at how many games have disappeared from your list of "playable" because the consoles got old and died. Would I have ever played Sonic Spinball with a controller ever again if not for the VC? Not likely.

If anything, DD has managed to save a lot of old games from perdition by bringing them back to us in a format that is both convenient and inexpensive.

Again, I think WW games should be released on compilation discs because it'll give more exposure to the format, but DD shouldn't be demonized like this when it's bringing so many new possibilities to the table.
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