Topic: WiiWare games should be released on disc. (Digital Distribution Discussion)

[TJ Spyke]

TJ, how can you say their are no benefits when I just outlined some? Are you disagreeing?  As for price, WiiWare, VC, Live Arcade, and PSN games all definitely pass some savings on to the customer.  Full retail games haven't had enough examples to make any statement about them.

I'm not kidding myself though, games will always be priced at what the parties involve think they can get for them.  But it is a fact that they require less money to be profitable when they are digitally distributed only.


And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the possibility of losing your data isn't a problem.  I just think its much less of a problem than you all make it out to be.

Firstly, I'm buying these games with a trust that these services will be continued on to future consoles.  Also, I expect Nintendo to solve the tying them to a console thing next gen as well, so that problem would go away as well.

Obviously I could be wrong about these assumptions and I could get burned... but because of the no need to collect thing I mentioned before, I can also assume that even if I am burned I will have played most of the games a significant amount anyway.  I wouldn't be THAT upset.

And just one last random thing, if you don't throw your games out they can still be considered waste, because they will get thrown out eventually AND they took energy to create.  But keeping them is definitely a great step towards minimizing the effect.

I said it doesn't offer many benefits, I didn't say it offered no benefits. As for prices, I was referring to full length games like Warhawk and anything on Steam. Why should I pay $50 to download a game on Steam when I can get a physical copy of the game for the same price and get more out of it? Warhawk was the same price in stores as it was in the PlayStation Store. Sony saved a ton of money (not having to give retailers any money, not having to pay for distribution, not having to print or manufacture anything, etc.) but they still charged the same price and did not pass any of the savings to consumers.

I am not totally against digital downloads, I love the Virtual Console and WiiWare. I just don't see digital downloads ever replacing physical copies (at least for movies and video games, music is different). At most I see something like Disney is doing. Disney has started releasing all of their titles in a package that included a Blu-ray Disc copy, a DVD copy, and a digital copy.

[Pale]

Ok, "Not many" benefits may be true depending on what you think constitutes "many", but the fact remains that I only see one benefit to buying a physical copy.

[Morari]

Ok, "Not many" benefits may be true depending on what you think constitutes "many", but the fact remains that I only see one benefit to buying a physical copy.

And boy, what a huge benefit it is!

Companies can't be trusted, period. Digital distribution is only used by companies because it gives them control... it's a form of DRM. I know that there are a ton of games that I still play on a fairly regular basis that are all over a decade old. That probably wouldn't be the case if they had been purchased digitally, as the companies have gone out of business, been bought out, the servers shut down, etc. Digital distribution is only good for the current generation that demands instant gratification to quench their two-day attention span beofre moving on to something else. Great games are timeless, and that should be taken into account.

[Pale]

I think your causality is a bit screwed up....

Digital distribution isn't here because of DRM.  Digital distribution is here because the majority of people enjoy the convenience and it makes good economic sense for the distributors.

DRM is here because a digital copy is much harder to protect than a physical copy so they had to come up with a scheme of taking care of it.

I appreciate your righteous "timeless" comment, but I definitely think it's a bit of an overstatement.  I mean, let's look at the past.  How many games from your childhood do you have no way of playing in a way other than the original cart?  I mean, we all know there are a few, because we have complaints about the Virtual Console.  But, it's painfully obvious that companies are going to do everything in their power to keep these games coming out in some form so they can keep making money on them.

I know for a fact that I can already play the majority of my childhood favorites on Virtual Console, and I hope that more and more of them will continue to come out.

This really just comes down to paranoia and I guess the moral of this story is I'm a heck of a lot less paranoid than you guys are.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

And downloadable games are easier to pirate and backup to a [lol] physical media to play on a later date.  The End.

[Ian Sane]

Right now digital delivery does seem more convenient.  But remember that it's not the ONLY method of buying something.  Now imagine a world there that is the ONLY option.  How do you think the big corporations will act when they have that much control over distribution?  We already are in an era where these companies act like we don't buy their stuff but rather just buy a licence to use it.  They love the idea of the remote off switch.  They love the idea of only allowing you so many uses before you have to buy it again or a limited time or only allowing use in certain situations and charging extra for others.  This is what they want.

Now you may think "well there's nothing to stop someone who isn't part of the big corporate machine from releasing their own stuff."  Right NOW there isn't anything stopping them because I can just record some tunes, burn them on a CD and *boom* indepedent music album.  But if digital is it then there is no CD player or DVD player or game console to play this stuff on.  Mr. DIY can't just burn his own physical media when no one has anything to play the physical media with.  So he'll just distribute digitally as well then, right?  Well how does it do that when he has no control over the delivery channel?  With television it's not very feasible to just whip up your own TV station and get your own show on the air.  In the future who's to say that it wlll be easy to make something available for purchase and download?  If they control the network and the device that receives the content and plays the content where do you go?  The internet is anarchy right now but do you think it will stay that way forever?  They're trying to control it and decades from now they might accomplish it.

Physical copies relinquish control from the companies.  They HATE used sales.  They try to block that sort of thing and make it illegal.  Because once something is out there they can never take it away.  Provided it stays in working condition it can legally pass from owner to owner without a dime going to the creator.  With digital we don't have that freedom.  Sure we can make copies but we legally aren't allowed to do that.  If we go all digital we'll be giving up some consumer freedom.

I know it sounds kind of paranoid but it seems that when big corporations are given the opportunity to **** everyone over they most often go for it.  It's not as much paranoia but a lack of faith in ethics when it involves that kind of money and power.

[UltimatePartyBear]

As for Nintendo disabling their online service, as long as you've got the stuff downloaded that doesn't matter (WiiWare doesn't require any remote authentication)

True but what if my Wii breaks years from now?  I could save my downloaded games to SD Card but even then what if I lose that?  The thing that's so great about physical media is that I can replace everything.  If my Gamecube breaks I can find a used one.  If my copy of Metroid Prime breaks I can find a used one.  I lose everything in a fire?  I might not be able to replace Mega Man 9 because Capcom may not have it available in any format and since no physical copy exists in the wild my only option for replacing it is piracy.

If your Gamecube breaks, you can find a used one.  If that one breaks, you can find another used one.  If that one breaks, and everyone else is going through the same thing?  Sure, it'd take a while to run out, but definitely less than forever.  The same thing will happen to your games.  Rarity has already driven up the price for some used games to ridiculous degrees.  Only software can really last forever.  I'm sure Nintendo will be happily profiting from that fact for generations to come, too.

[vudu]

They love the idea of the remote off switch.  They love the idea of only allowing you so many uses before you have to buy it again or a limited time or only allowing use in certain situations and charging extra for others.  This is what they want.

Source?  Hell, I'd settle for an example.  Name one instance of a company "turning off" your license.  You can't just go sprouting nonsense and expect us to take it as gospel.

Sure, there are many instances of a limited number of installs, but that's not the same thing as a company deciding it wants to just turn off something you already bought.  Even if it was, that's not a problem limited only to digital distribution.  A coworker of mine recently complained to me about an online PS2 game her boyfriend recently bought.  It was an online-centric multiplayer FPS (sorry, can't remember which one) that was several years old.  The servers have since been shut down so the game is over 50% "worthless" now.

[Mop it up]

The biggest reason that a physical copy beats all? You can't sell a download. If you buy a game you don't like or just want to beat it and sell it, you're stuck with it if it's a download. Without being able to buy used games, there will never be price drops because there's no need for them. Games will never go on sale either because there won't be retailer specials.

How many games from your childhood do you have no way of playing in a way other than the original cart?

I still have the original carts and therefore don't need to pay for them again to play them. How many people growing up on WiiWare will be able to play those games again without having to buy them again?

Honestly though, I don't see why both forms can't be offered. Each form has its benefits and seem popular without cannibalizing sales of the other, so why not offer both?

[TJ Spyke]

They love the idea of the remote off switch.  They love the idea of only allowing you so many uses before you have to buy it again or a limited time or only allowing use in certain situations and charging extra for others.  This is what they want.

Source?  Hell, I'd settle for an example.  Name one instance of a company "turning off" your license.  You can't just go sprouting nonsense and expect us to take it as gospel.

Sure, there are many instances of a limited number of installs, but that's not the same thing as a company deciding it wants to just turn off something you already bought.  Even if it was, that's not a problem limited only to digital distribution.  A coworker of mine recently complained to me about an online PS2 game her boyfriend recently bought.  It was an online-centric multiplayer FPS (sorry, can't remember which one) that was several years old.  The servers have since been shut down so the game is over 50% "worthless" now.

He was saying about the ability to download it. It Nintendo were to remove a game from the Virtual Console, you'd never be able to download it. With a physical game you can just buy another copy. If Microsoft were to shut down Xbox Live Arcade, you'd have no way of ever getting those games again on your Xbox 360. This is the problem with digital only methods, you lose all control over the ability to acquire the game when you want.

Also, your online argument seems worthless to me. People who buy MMO's know that once the publisher pulls the plug on the game they are stuck with little more than a coaster. That is one of the reason I won't play MMOs (the other is that I refuse to pay a monthly fee just for the right to play a game I already purchased).

[vudu]

It Nintendo were to remove a game from the Virtual Console, you'd never be able to download it. With a physical game you can just buy another copy. If Microsoft were to shut down Xbox Live Arcade, you'd have no way of ever getting those games again on your Xbox 360. This is the problem with digital only methods, you lose all control over the ability to acquire the game when you want.

If Nintendo were to train an elite group of ninjas to sneak into everyone's home and steal their Super Mario Bros 3 cartridges you'd lose the ability to play that, too. 

[TJ Spyke]

I guess you don't have a counter so you had to resort to nonsense. One is a valid thing that they have actually done before (Nintendo did remove a couple of VC games in Europe for like a year, and in that period the only way to download it was if you had already downloaded it before) while the other is pure-nonsense.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Machines break.

[vudu]

You're pure nonsense.

[Stratos]

The thought of the internet one day being tamed, controlled and domesticated frightens me. Someone with that much power would be dangerous.

@Ian

Some things that are digital and DIY friendly are podcasts. Plus DIY musicians and game devs can still distribute their stuff online through their personal websites, iTunes or Amazon. Heck, Steam has a whole section dedicated to indie games and WiiWare was made to support the little guys.

I agree with a lot of the reservations against digital distribution being a consumers only option, but there are still workarounds available for people.

I only buy physical albums for artists I really like, my favorites. But others I am trying for the first time or where I'm not as big on them I'll grab off of Amazon MP3 since they are relatively cheaper.

[Mop it up]

You know, I did not intend for this topic to become a discussion of digital distribution vs. physical distribution, though I suppose it was inevitable as the two aren't exactly unrelated. I just wanted some opinions on whether people believe any WiiWare games will be released on disc and/or if that's a financially feasible option. It isn't like I'm suggesting that WiiWare shouldn't exist.

I find it funny and possibly ironic that the first person to ridicule me in this topic was Pale, even although it was in a more passive way.

[TJ Spyke]

Whether it's feasible or not I guess depends on how well Xbox Live Arcade Unplugged, Vol. 1. If it bombed then that might mean people are interested in collections of these downloaded games.

I am hoping for a collection though.

[Stratos]

Pale wants to save the world through pushing digital distribution; "Gamers Honored For Immense Sacrifice To Stave Off Global Warming! Gamer Environmental Revolution Spurred By Mysterious Man In Bucket Hat!""

Of all of them I would be willing to bet the Strong Bad games would because Telltale likes to do that with their other games like Sam & Max. Sadly S&M didn't do well in sales. I liked it.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I had misgivings about digital distribution before I got this job, but after a few years here, my attitude softened.  I write software.  The product I make isn't an optical disc.  It's bits arranged to do something useful.  I get paid to arrange bits.  I went to school to learn how to arrange bits.

The same is true of video game developers.  When I buy a game, the physical trappings are incidental to what I want, which is artfully arranged bits.  The disc is only of any value to me because it contains a copy of those bits.  I gave up some of the money I earned arranging bits to pay someone else for arranging bits in a way that pleases me.  I didn't pay them for stamping a disc.  I paid some other joker who doesn't even know what a bit is to do that.  That joker's work is entirely parenthetical to the transaction I actually care about.  It didn't improve the bits in any way to put them on a disc.  All it did was facilitate the trade of my money for the bits.

And that is of some use!  Putting the bits on a disc lets us pretend that they're more similar to traditional products like shoes and cars.  It lets us buy, sell, and trade them like physical commodities.  However, realistically, underneath it all, there are two things that matter to me.  First, I want to be able to enjoy those bits.  Second, I want to compensate their arrangers.  And if I don't mind giving up some of the pretense a disc creates, such as being able to sell it (I never sell my games) or having an extra copy (which I know isn't permanent), why bother with the disc in the first place?

[Stratos]

I bother with the bits holder because I like to have them lined up on my shelf like movies and CDs in alphabetical order. I like to go over to my shelf and look at them and decide which I feel like enjoying that day. I also like having the manuals to read on a carbon based material because I sometimes get tired of reading digitally arranged bits on a screen. It's why I also don't like e-books.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

So that Nintendo can sell boxart slapped onto plastic.

Which in turn is sold by, returned to, and again sold by GameStop.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I bother with the bits holder because I like to have them lined up on my shelf like movies and CDs in alphabetical order. I like to go over to my shelf and look at them and decide which I feel like enjoying that day.

Strictly speaking, you only need boxes and artwork to do that, not bits holders. 

Edit:  There's a possibility that's what Pro just said.

[vudu]

So that Nintendo can sell boxart slapped onto plastic.

Which in turn is sold by, returned to, and again sold by GameStop.

Technically, GameStop is already doing this. 

[TJ Spyke]

When that game bombs because of this I doubt Sony will try it again.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

So that Nintendo can sell boxart slapped onto plastic.

Which in turn is sold by, returned to, and again sold by GameStop.

Technically, GameStop is already doing this. 

Remarkable timing.  It's as if my thoughts become reality.