Author Topic: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean  (Read 175308 times)

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #150 on: December 22, 2009, 04:36:49 PM »
I agree that more can be done with motion controls than the mostly poor efforts we've seen from a majority of the developers that have "tried", but Ian you are picking on the wrong crop of games. None of those games use the motion poorly.

The games you want to rag on are the poor 3rd party efforts with broken controls that replace button presses with a flick of the wrist just so they can say they used motion control.

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #151 on: December 22, 2009, 05:33:36 PM »
I personally would prefer it if Metroid Prime 3 had controls more like the Cube games.  I don't expect that opinion to be widespread though.  I always liked Metroid Prime's controls.

I've played Prime on the GC and on the Wii and I don't understand how you could hate the Wii controls for it. Obviously both methods can work, but to me the Wii controls are a lot more intuitive and makes it feel more natural. That's how it is with any FPS type game. Aiming a gun with analog sticks is a bit nerve-wracking, especially when you are getting your ass kicked. But with the wii mote it makes it as simple as point and click. And I know you might say that makes the games too easy, but that's really how guns are in reality so it makes things more realistic. I'm all for games having a challenge to them, but the challenge shouldn't be in having to fight with awkward controls.

For me the Wii library has larely been sequels to Cube games but with wacky controls.  I had to buy a new console for that?  What a rip off!

I share your disappointment with the majority of the Wii's library to date, but I think calling the system a ripoff is a bit extreme. Yes, the games have been a bit disappointing, but at least the console didn't cost $600 and there are still at least a few more years of life left in it. If nothing else, the system is going to justify itself with the new Zelda game next year. That alone would make the system not a rip-off, even ignoring everything else that has come out or will come out for it.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #152 on: December 22, 2009, 05:37:03 PM »
I agree that more can be done with motion controls than the mostly poor efforts we've seen from a majority of the developers that have "tried", but Ian you are picking on the wrong crop of games. None of those games use the motion poorly.

I can't help but wonder if Ian has ever even played a Wii game that got the motion controls right. There are indeed a lot of crappy games that only use the wiimote for waggle, and Ian might just be basing his opinion entirely on these games. He needs to give the games that get it right a shot so he can have an informed opinion.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #153 on: December 22, 2009, 05:48:24 PM »
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Obviously both methods can work, but to me the Wii controls are a lot more intuitive and makes it feel more natural. That's how it is with any FPS type game.

The second you said "FPS" you just revealed why I don't like it.  Metroid Prime is not an FPS, therefore it makes no sense to give it FPS controls and build the game around said controls.
 
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It's not always about if it could/couldn't be done on a regular controller, it's about can the experience be enhanced or simplified by adding a unique style of control to the game, basically taking what might be considered a little stale or more of the same and making it something new, exciting, immediately accessible and more intuitive to anyone that wants to play.

I guess I just strongly disagree on how much these things enhance the game.  I like SMG because of the planet concept.  This is what makes the game unique and is why it's such a great game.  That aspect of the game could have done effortlessly on a normal controller.  For Mario Kart Wii, it offers the conventional controls.  To me that proves the motion control usage is nothing but a novelty.  I say the conventional controls shouldn't be an option.  Not because Nintendo decides not to make them available but because the game CANNOT work with them.  This applies to Wii Sports.  We know Mario Kart Wii would work on the Gamecube because the option is practically there.  We can experience it and the game is still great.
 
And games like Warioland, Twilight Princess, Punch-Out and NSMB Wii use motion control merely as waggle.  They are literally just swapping a button push with a gesture.  It's the same stupid crap that the third parties do except that Nintendo is a little more accurate with it.
 
Do you buy a new console for a slight enhancement or something major?  I wouldn't have bought a SNES if it was just for the two extra face buttons.
 
And then you look at something like Wii Fit where the whole thing is based on a fancy doodad bundled in.  Well, ****, you could release that on ANY console.  How can you say that uses the Wii to any full potential when the whole thing is based on a custom controller?  That's like using Duck Hunt as the d-pad killer app.
 
I'll give you Metroid Prime 3 and the Wii series except for Wii Fit.  So that's a bunch of non-games and one core title I would rank as part of the best of the Wii.  Hell I'll count the Wii Sports games as something truly special (but NOT Wii Play and Wii Music)  So there are *3* Wii games that would be vastly different and inferior if they were made for the Gamecube instead.  3 titles in 3 years.  With that track record you might as well have made the remote a damn accessory to a normal console.

Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #154 on: December 22, 2009, 06:31:11 PM »
True, Metroid is not FPS, but in SM you could at least hit the L/R buttons and quickly aim upward. How is having fast pointer controls instead of slow, tank-like aiming a bad, non-Metroid thing?

The Wii really is a revolution... every week the complaining goes around and around in circles.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #155 on: December 22, 2009, 06:42:45 PM »
Ian, lets pull the curtain off this little charade of you being a disgruntled Wii gamer.

How many Wii games do you physically own and how many of those games have you actually played?
And by played, I mean you gotten pretty far into it and in some cases even finished the game.
You sound like the only time you've ever played a Wii is at the local Gamestop demo kiosk and the batteries were always low in the remote.

Offline D_Average

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #156 on: December 22, 2009, 07:07:46 PM »
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The best of the Wii could have been done on a normal controller with only a few minor tweaks.

Well that's just wrong.  There is zero chance that Wii Sports Resort could have been done on a regular controller.  Period.

Pretty sure Ian is referring to obvious critical hits like Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Mario Kart, Mario 5, ect..  And yes, they all would have worked great on a regular controller, even better for many.  The top ten on Metacritic for Wii all are, or could be running on a console.  This is strange for a console who's core identity is "motion".

Curious Metroid missed the cut there as its controls severely stomped the previous two on consoles.  And Wii Fit, too.  But yeah, some of those games could have been on *ahem* "consoles."  (Did you mean console controller?)  Some games could have been made without HD resolutions or online features too. 

Just what are the top ten anyway?  I hope all of them apply, it'd be pretty embarrassing if even one didn't.

Oh man, you really crack me up.  Going through all ten games with the same fervor as Matlock.  I'm not going to bother responding to each one.  I was making the simple point that some people don't need waggle in their Mario Galaxy.  Looking over that list, its painfully clear that all ten can be played and/or developed for play without a Wiimote.  And for some gamers, this makes the experience better, as depending on the game, its not worth straining yourself to get the motions right as opposed to kicking back on the couch.  And considering Suda thinks its a good idea to release one of the most Wii-native games on the PS3/360, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.  If you prefer you games with waggle, thats great.  But just because some folks in the minority do not, its no reason to get so worked up.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #157 on: December 22, 2009, 07:31:03 PM »
Ian, lets pull the curtain off this little charade of you being a disgruntled Wii gamer.

How many Wii games do you physically own and how many of those games have you actually played?
And by played, I mean you gotten pretty far into it and in some cases even finished the game.
You sound like the only time you've ever played a Wii is at the local Gamestop demo kiosk and the batteries were always low in the remote.
He posted his games in the "How many 3rd party games do you have" topic.

Wii Sports
Brawl
Mario Galaxy
MP3:Coruption
Wario Land:Shake It
3rd party:
Zack and Wiki
MLB Power Pros
Guitar Hero 3 and World Tour.

That was as of January 23rd 2009.
http://nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=23731.100
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #158 on: December 22, 2009, 08:28:01 PM »
Do you buy a new console for a slight enhancement or something major?  I wouldn't have bought a SNES if it was just for the two extra face buttons.

I just want to go offtopic for a moment and point out that the SNES controller also added two shoulder buttons to its controller, and it may not seem a big deal now but that was revolutionary back in the day. The SNES controller was pretty much as perfect as one can get in the pre-analog stick era, and it was the absolute first to have shoulder buttons. It is a standard and universal feature now, but the SNES controller started it.

Now with that out of the way, I also want to say that the Wii adds more to the party than just motion controls. Granted, that is a big part of what distinguishes it from the cube, but the Wii is 1.5 to 2 times as powerful as the GC hardware wise and it also finally incorporates internet capability which is a first for any Nintendo system (unless you could the GC's internet adapter which was a joke because only one game supported it). The Wii also has Miis, all those channels (which has nothing to do with gaming, but still). So the Wii is an all round improvement over the GC in many respects and this includes the hardware specs. It is more than a repackaged Cube, even if games seldom harness its full potential.

So saying that the Wii is a ripoff because it is just a cube with motion controls is completely false. By this logic one could also say the 360 or PS3 is a ripoff because all it adds is HD ability. Paying $600 for a new console whose only improvement over its predecessor is HD is what I would consider a ripoff. The games on the PS3 and 360 may look a lot better than the games on the PS2 and XBOX1 but they don't play any different. They look better aesthetically, but they cost $10 more and they are often shorter in length. You don't get as much bang for your buck. The Wii still keep the $49.99 MSRP for its games as was the case in previous generations and that to me is commendable.
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Offline D_Average

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #159 on: December 22, 2009, 09:56:23 PM »
Do you buy a new console for a slight enhancement or something major?  I wouldn't have bought a SNES if it was just for the two extra face buttons.

I just want to go offtopic for a moment and point out that the SNES controller also added two shoulder buttons to its controller, and it may not seem a big deal now but that was revolutionary back in the day. The SNES controller was pretty much as perfect as one can get in the pre-analog stick era, and it was the absolute first to have shoulder buttons. It is a standard and universal feature now, but the SNES controller started it.

Now with that out of the way, I also want to say that the Wii adds more to the party than just motion controls. Granted, that is a big part of what distinguishes it from the cube, but the Wii is 1.5 to 2 times as powerful as the GC hardware wise and it also finally incorporates internet capability which is a first for any Nintendo system (unless you could the GC's internet adapter which was a joke because only one game supported it). The Wii also has Miis, all those channels (which has nothing to do with gaming, but still). So the Wii is an all round improvement over the GC in many respects and this includes the hardware specs. It is more than a repackaged Cube, even if games seldom harness its full potential.

So saying that the Wii is a ripoff because it is just a cube with motion controls is completely false. By this logic one could also say the 360 or PS3 is a ripoff because all it adds is HD ability. Paying $600 for a new console whose only improvement over its predecessor is HD is what I would consider a ripoff. The games on the PS3 and 360 may look a lot better than the games on the PS2 and XBOX1 but they don't play any different. They look better aesthetically, but they cost $10 more and they are often shorter in length. You don't get as much bang for your buck. The Wii still keep the $49.99 MSRP for its games as was the case in previous generations and that to me is commendable.

Interesting thoughts.  I'm curious what your stance would be on a Nintendo game like Wii Mario Sluggers.  It wasn't a re-release with "new play control" like Pikmin and a few others, but branded as a "new" Wii game.  However, after playing it, it was clear little was added to the GC version aside from the motion controls that just got in the way, according to many reviews and members on the boards here.

Me.  I'd say it was a rip off.  I'd have preferred a Mario baseball game built from the ground up for the Wii with a perspective while you're at the plate more akin to Wii Sports.  It is in that realm where motion controls truly shine.  When I bought the Wii, I assumed games like that would be a no brainier.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #160 on: December 22, 2009, 11:10:34 PM »
The ball has been dropped alot in the realm of what you would expect from motion control games on the Wii. Lots of games that would have made sense to be on the Wii control wise just never materialized.

I'm sure Disco Stick will have much more support from 3rd Parties.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #161 on: December 23, 2009, 08:18:23 AM »
Yeah yeah now give us a western release date for Zangeki no Reginleiv.

Offline Deguello

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #162 on: December 23, 2009, 09:05:18 AM »
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Oh man, you really crack me up.  Going through all ten games with the same fervor as Matlock.  I'm not going to bother responding to each one.

Hey, I'm not the one who brought up a top ten list, bub.  You don't have to respond, anyway.  You didn't even look at them in the first place.

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I was making the simple point that some people don't need waggle in their Mario Galaxy.

No, you said the game would have controlled the same or better with a regular console. It's only a few posts up, go read it.  Or here, I'll do it, "And yes, they all would have worked great on a regular controller, even better for many."  The very critics you cite disagree, and rated Mario Galaxy higher than Mario Sunshine and Mario 64.

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Looking over that list, its painfully clear that all ten can be played and/or developed for play without a Wiimote.

Nice sleight of hand, but you distinctly said a "regular controller," (In fact, it's right up there)  Unless plastic guitars are now "regular," which would be a pretty bad double standard to have.  Rockband or Guitar Hero can be played with a regular controller, but if you went around saying it could and "people would have liked it better that way," then they'll call you names, because the critics and the market disagree with you, as shown by regular Rockband sales/reviews and the absolutely horrid sales/reviews of Rockband Unplugged, with normal control scheme.  Yeah some prefer it to the plastic guitar, as "horrid sales" are still a few sales, but it's not enough to matter.

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And for some gamers, this makes the experience better, as depending on the game, its not worth straining yourself to get the motions right as opposed to kicking back on the couch.

Yeah some gamers like it better.  So?  Some gamers liked digital d-pad controls over analog.  Some gamers hate online and want single player.  Some gamers like X over Y.  But even if it is his opinion, it doesn't override the majority opinion that motion controls have vastly improved either the review scores and sales.  This isn't about "preference."  It's about whether motion control is a worthwhile innovation or a "useless novetly" and the market (and critics apparently) feel that motion control is the former, and so do MS and Sony because they're busy trying to copy it.  And LOL "strain."  Whatever, dude.

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And considering Suda thinks its a good idea to release one of the most Wii-native games on the PS3/360, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Just because Marvelous as a company wants to port No More Heroes doesn't mean Suda's like "I have seen the error of my ways on motion control and wish to make amends.  I am absolutely certain this game will sell million more on the PS3."  He was probably too busy making NMH2 to even care.  It's like saying "Obviously Shinji Mikami thinks it's a good idea to downport RE4 to the PS2" like he's on the board of directors and was his decision or something.  (The game was released after he left the company.)

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If you prefer you games with waggle, that's great.  But just because some folks in the minority do not, its no reason to get so worked up.

Well I'm sorry you feel debate is "getting worked up" but next time try not citing something that deliberately contradicts your point.  If you don't like it, you don't have to participate.

So anyway, Sony's Wagglotron.  Considering the caustic hatred that "waggle" is apparently getting even right here, does anybody think Sony's Motion Controller will even get off the ground anywhere, even if 3rd parties get behind it?  They'd have to make better motion games than Nintendo and that's just not likely.  They can barely make competitive games without motion.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #163 on: December 23, 2009, 02:32:28 PM »
I'm just hoping that Nintendo's next system incorporates some sort of camera to track where you are with your wiimote and use that info to make calibration unnecessary in future games and make accuracy more 1:1.

If patents allow that is. I'm not sure how tightly locked does tracking a controller with a camera is, but I don't know why Nintendo wouldn't attempt to patent every way to do motion controls when they realized that was their next move in this market.

I personally think Sony is onto something good here and hope that Nintendo pays attention and tries to incorporate what it can of it in their own way.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #164 on: December 23, 2009, 03:16:24 PM »
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So anyway, Sony's Wagglotron.  Considering the caustic hatred that "waggle" is apparently getting even right here, does anybody think Sony's Motion Controller will even get off the ground anywhere, even if 3rd parties get behind it?  They'd have to make better motion games than Nintendo and that's just not likely.  They can barely make competitive games without motion.

I don't.  It's funny that there is so much debate in this thread because THIS is probably something most of us agree on.  Regardless of how much one may like the titles involved, Nintendo is easily the best developer in the world for motion control games.  Sony can't top it.  And if third parties could, well, I question why they wouldn't use this great motion control idea they've had brewing on the Wii since it's already out and has the largest userbase.
 
If this comes out and some major third party like Konami, Capcom or Square Enix release some killer app for it that just knocks the concept out of the park and crushes anything Nintendo has done then the "third parties hate Nintendo" conspiracy theories are true. :)

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #165 on: December 23, 2009, 03:39:47 PM »
Motion Control isn't rocket science, thats like sayng will Sony be able to put joysticks in its controller successfully since Nintendo was such an innovator with having a joystick in the n64 controller. The motion controlls are just another input, and at the same time they were never as good as they were supposed to be. Motion + on the other hand is. Developers have skimped on Nintendo because thats what they do. They had two generation of developing for Sony, and they see staying with sony as playing it safe, even if Sony's userbase took a nose dive this generation. Many companies, only know how to improve or simply copy existing gameplay formulas, you don't see them do things on Nintendo's level because they aren't. There are a couple of companies that are on Nintendo's level in gameplay design, like Capcom, or Konami, but being a third party and supporting multiple consoles means playing it safe can be a survival technique.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #166 on: December 23, 2009, 03:40:05 PM »
I'm just hoping that Nintendo's next system incorporates some sort of camera to track where you are with your wiimote and use that info to make calibration unnecessary in future games and make accuracy more 1:1.
Would it be feasible to do this with the IR camera that's already in the Wiimote?

I'm curious what your stance would be on a Nintendo game like Wii Mario Sluggers.  It wasn't a re-release with "new play control" like Pikmin and a few others, but branded as a "new" Wii game.  However, after playing it, it was clear little was added to the GC version aside from the motion controls that just got in the way, according to many reviews and members on the boards here.
I don't think that Mario Super Sluggers is comparable to the "New Play Control!" lineup because it contains entirely new content (except returning characters of course). I wouldn't disagree that it doesn't live up to its potential, but it is still a new game.

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #167 on: December 23, 2009, 03:54:58 PM »
Ian, as I understand it you went and bought a PS3 because you think the motion controls on the Wii suck. Well, apparently Sony doesn't think motion controls suck because they are ripping off the idea from Nintendo and adding it to their own console.

Now my question to you is what are you going to do when motion controls become an industry standard? Every console is going to have this at some point, so how can you escape it?
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #168 on: December 23, 2009, 04:14:53 PM »
I'm just hoping that Nintendo's next system incorporates some sort of camera to track where you are with your wiimote and use that info to make calibration unnecessary in future games and make accuracy more 1:1.
Would it be feasible to do this with the IR camera that's already in the Wiimote?

The IR camera can only see what it's pointing at and it's only looking for a light source.
If Nintendo were to incorporate the camera with the sensor  and maybe put some strategically placed LED lights on the Wiimote2.0 to sense where it is pointing when it is not pointing at the TV, it would work better. Dual tracking for 100% accuracy all the time and no calibration.

Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #169 on: December 23, 2009, 04:22:59 PM »
Video games that watch what I am doing make me uncomfortable.  :(
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #170 on: December 23, 2009, 04:37:47 PM »
The other reason I can see developers not working on Wii is the ridiculousness of Japanese hierarchy in businesses, what the boss thinks it the most important thing to do, workers be obedient, the boss does not do market research, nor does he probably play other games. This leaves the younger guys extremely frustrated, a lot of the younger generation of developers aren't sticking with the company for life like the previous generation has. In interviews across the board you can hear the frustration.

American companies have a similar problem, its that they use old mindset of the previous generation on the current generation. American developers will it seems always support Sony, Microsoft, and the PC over Nintendo.

Then there are those sad stories of developers like Factor 5 that did really good by supporting Nintendo, only to go bankrupt chasing graphics. What i really too bad, is that by going independent of Lucas arts and getting away from the star wars license they went with a shitty company like Brash as publisher.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 04:40:44 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #171 on: December 23, 2009, 06:42:22 PM »
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Now my question to you is what are you going to do when motion controls become an industry standard? Every console is going to have this at some point, so how can you escape it?

Technically the PS3 already has motion control.  I didn't buy the PS3 to escape it.  I bought a PS3 because I felt the Wii was insufficient in meeting my gaming needs by itself so I bought a second console.  I'm not against motion control, I'm against lousy controls and lousy games.  I'm assuming good game design will never go away so it's not a concern.
 
Odds are Sony will release their motion dildo, the whole thing will bomb harder than the PSP Go and the PS3 will just continue as is, assuming the financial losses don't kill the thing off.

Offline D_Average

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #172 on: December 23, 2009, 08:33:16 PM »
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No, you said the game would have controlled the same or better with a regular console. It's only a few posts up, go read it.  Or here, I'll do it, "And yes, they all would have worked great on a regular controller, even better for many."  The very critics you cite disagree, and rated Mario Galaxy higher than Mario Sunshine and Mario 64.

By "even better for many" I meant people.  As in, there are many out there who would prefer a non waggle way to play those games listed on the top ten.  I wasn't saying the games would be objectively "better", as this would obviously be futile on a forum.


And my gawd mate, did I really need to spell out that Guitar Hero type games still needed a fake plastic instrument???  What a waste of time this was.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #173 on: December 23, 2009, 11:38:17 PM »
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By "even better for many" I meant people.  As in, there are many out there who would prefer a non waggle way to play those games listed on the top ten.  I wasn't saying the games would be objectively "better", as this would obviously be futile on a forum.

Well that's rather retroactively convenient for you, but "many" in that sentence directly links to "they" and "they" is used as a pronoun for the games.  It's not my fault the sentence as you wrote it is ambiguous.

But why cite metacritic?  The whole idea of those review aggregators is to find "objective" consensus.  When you say "better for many" and you don't mean anybody else but yourself and maybe two other guys it doesn't mean much.

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And my gawd mate, did I really need to spell out that Guitar Hero type games still needed a fake plastic instrument???

Did you say that?  It seems like you said all of the games would have controlled the same "or better."  Either way it seemed like you gave plastic guitars a pass or considered them "regular controllers," and each way was rather puzzling.

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What a waste of time this was.

Oh you cut me to the bone, sir.  I am insulted and shamed.  You may depart the field in victory now.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean
« Reply #174 on: December 25, 2009, 11:26:49 PM »
"Motion Control isn't rocket science,"

Any engineers here besides myself and Jonny?

Rocket science is easier than motion controls.
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