Topic: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean

[D_Average]

 The disillusioned Wii owners you guys talk about don't really exist.

I'm proof as well they do.  I bought the Wii in Oct of 2007 with the intention of only buying the Wii.  Starting in 1987 I had always remained faithful to Nintendo.  I never bought or even lusted after another console.  With the Wii, I figured the VC, along with all of the great and new IP motion control games that were sure to come would be more than enough for a casual gamer like me.  I was wrong.  It wasn't. 

On Sept 2008, after a lot of meditation, I came to the conclusion a needed a PS3 in order to feel "satisfied."  Since then, no regrets.  Maybe it even happened to some of the staff here as well.  Compared to the first year of Radio Free Nintendo, the "New Business" section now mostly consists of discussion on non Nintendo games.  I'm not complaining.  I'm just saying. 

[broodwars]

 The disillusioned Wii owners you guys talk about don't really exist.

I'm proof as well they do.  I bought the Wii in Oct of 2007 with the intention of only buying the Wii.  Starting in 1987 I had always remained faithful to Nintendo.  I never bought or even lusted after another console.  With the Wii, I figured the VC, along with all of the great and new IP motion control games that were sure to come would be more than enough for a casual gamer like me.  I was wrong.  It wasn't. 

On Sept 2008, after a lot of meditation, I came to the conclusion a needed a PS3 in order to feel "satisfied."  Since then, no regrets.  Maybe it even happened to some of the staff here as well.  Compared to the first year of Radio Free Nintendo, the "New Business" section now mostly consists of discussion on non Nintendo games.  I'm not complaining.  I'm just saying.

I'm pretty much in the same boat: I got a Wii for my birthday in April 2007 with the intention that it (like the GameCube, N64, SNES, and NES before it) would be my only console.  When that 1.5 year drought hit, though, I found myself in need of games that no one on the Wii was currently delivering.  I'm not talking about M-rated games or whatnot (after all, Zelda is my favorite gaming franchise), but just a steady stream of games that take the Wii concept of "simple interface, engrossing gameplay" and extend it to the core games I like to play.  During the last 1.5 years, I had to get a PS3 or I would have been completely bored with the Wii's pitiful lineup (thankfully, the dam seems to have burst this Fall as we finally got some very good games from Nintendo and 3rd parties alike).

You're probably right, though, and these kind of gamers have already jumped ship to another console by now, assuming that the price of the HD consoles and the setup really needed to enjoy them didn't get in the way.  Still, if Sony or Microsoft can position themselves as the company that can say "hey, we have real games here with motion controls that actually work, and they're in HD!", that could be quite the draw.  As for why they've been vocal in PR about appealing to the casuals, they're certainly free to dream but I think we all know that's a lost cause at this point.  And...I'm rambling...

[Shorty McNostril]

I'm proof as well they do.  I bought the Wii in Oct of 2007 with the intention of only buying the Wii.  Starting in 1987 I had always remained faithful to Nintendo.  I never bought or even lusted after another console.  With the Wii, I figured the VC, along with all of the great and new IP motion control games that were sure to come would be more than enough for a casual gamer like me.  I was wrong.  It wasn't. 

On Sept 2008, after a lot of meditation, I came to the conclusion a needed a PS3 in order to feel "satisfied."  Since then, no regrets.  Maybe it even happened to some of the staff here as well.  Compared to the first year of Radio Free Nintendo, the "New Business" section now mostly consists of discussion on non Nintendo games.  I'm not complaining.  I'm just saying. 

This is me too.  When I had my N64 and my GC, I was satisfied.  I had no desire for a PS1 or 2.  I bought the Wii with the idea that this would be my console for this gen.  The idea appealed to me and while I was still a bit skeptical, I gave them the benefit of the doubt.  6 months ago I bought a 360.  And I can tell you that my 360 gets a hell of a lot more use than does the Wii. 

Now that said, I will probably always have a Nintendo console for the same reason that all of us here will probably always have one. ie, Nintendo games.  If I decide to pick up a multi platform game then 99 times out of 100 it will be on the 360 and not the wii for the simple reason that the Wii version is usually bad.

[Luigi Dude]

 The disillusioned Wii owners you guys talk about don't really exist.

I'm proof as well they do.  I bought the Wii in Oct of 2007 with the intention of only buying the Wii.  Starting in 1987 I had always remained faithful to Nintendo.  I never bought or even lusted after another console.  With the Wii, I figured the VC, along with all of the great and new IP motion control games that were sure to come would be more than enough for a casual gamer like me.  I was wrong.  It wasn't. 

On Sept 2008, after a lot of meditation, I came to the conclusion a needed a PS3 in order to feel "satisfied."  Since then, no regrets.  Maybe it even happened to some of the staff here as well.  Compared to the first year of Radio Free Nintendo, the "New Business" section now mostly consists of discussion on non Nintendo games.  I'm not complaining.  I'm just saying. 

The thing is people like you, broodwars, and Ian are an extremely small minority that is a non factor to Nintendo.  Last gen during the Gamecube I remember reading post like this all the time saying the same thing.  That they were loyal to Nintendo but Nintendo has left them for kids just like you guys are doing the same b!tching about Nintendo leaving you for the casuals.

If I was to believe what people on the message boards say, then the Wii should have bombed since all the loyal Nintendo fans were suppose , to be jumping ship last gen.  And yet, Nintendo and all their core franchises that appeal to their longtime fans are doing better then ever this gen.

[BlackNMild2k1]

But are there a lot of core gamers that own a Wii, are disappointed with it, and have not already bought the Xbox 360 or PS3?  I kind of doubt it.  The disillusioned Wii owners exist but I think they already changed sides.  What Sony can hope for is that existing Wii owners grow disinterested in it and that Sony can win them over.  If they could come up with vastly superior motion control usage that can be easily demostrated to the general public then they might be able to do it.  They might be able to create disillusioned Wii owners by showing off something vastly better.  But I doubt they're capable of that.

Sony does have a very unique opportunity to make their motion control approach very different from Nintendo. I don't have the article right now, but Sony announced that the PS3 will be compatible with the 3Dtv spec that will be compatible with all PS3 games and 3D Blu-ray movies.

[D_Average]

 The disillusioned Wii owners you guys talk about don't really exist.

I'm proof as well they do.  I bought the Wii in Oct of 2007 with the intention of only buying the Wii.  Starting in 1987 I had always remained faithful to Nintendo.  I never bought or even lusted after another console.  With the Wii, I figured the VC, along with all of the great and new IP motion control games that were sure to come would be more than enough for a casual gamer like me.  I was wrong.  It wasn't. 

On Sept 2008, after a lot of meditation, I came to the conclusion a needed a PS3 in order to feel "satisfied."  Since then, no regrets.  Maybe it even happened to some of the staff here as well.  Compared to the first year of Radio Free Nintendo, the "New Business" section now mostly consists of discussion on non Nintendo games.  I'm not complaining.  I'm just saying. 

The thing is people like you, broodwars, and Ian are an extremely small minority that is a non factor to Nintendo.  Last gen during the Gamecube I remember reading post like this all the time saying the same thing.  That they were loyal to Nintendo but Nintendo has left them for kids just like you guys are doing the same b!tching about Nintendo leaving you for the casuals.

If I was to believe what people on the message boards say, then the Wii should have bombed since all the loyal Nintendo fans were suppose , to be jumping ship last gen.  And yet, Nintendo and all their core franchises that appeal to their longtime fans are doing better then ever this gen.

Yeah.  I guess you're right.  Punch Out is a core game, and it certainly cleaned up at retail this year. 

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I have to finish Punch-Out!!  I had to suspend playing due to my Mario Kart Wii injury at the start of the summer.  Almost thought I'd never be able to play good games again.

[Chozo Ghost]

But are there a lot of core gamers that own a Wii, are disappointed with it, and have not already bought the Xbox 360 or PS3?  I kind of doubt it.

That would be me. I'm not severely disappointed in the Wii, but the thought of getting another console has crossed my mind. The reasons I haven't is because of the cost of both the systems and the games. Now it is true that the 360 and PS3 cost a lot less than they did before and this isn't such an issue anymore like it was, but then you have to consider the games which come with an MSRP $10 higher than that of the Wii's games. Paying $60 for games sucks, and I can't afford that. I can get a lot of quality Wii games now for $29 or less.

So these games are sating my thirst for now. Does the Wii have as many core games as it should or as I would like? No. But there is enough of them that I can get by on. But I really do wish games like GTA, RE5, Street Fighter, Assassin's Creed, Batman, etc. would make their way over to the Wii. I am okay with the graphics not being as good, as long as the games don't cost $60.

All that said, I MIGHT get another console at some point but I am holding out hope things are going to turn around for the Wii soon. Next year's E3 might have a flood of hardcore Wii games for all we know. That's what I'm hoping to see happen.

[Luigi Dude]

Yeah.  I guess you're right.  Punch Out is a core game, and it certainly cleaned up at retail this year. 

You do realize last time any data was shown, Punch Out sold over 400,000 copies after it's third month on the NPD?  It dropped out of the top 20 in it's 4th month, but games out of the top 20 can still put up numbers up to 100K depending on the month.  Unless Punch Out stopped selling completely after it's 3rd month, it could easily be anywhere between 500-800K in North America right now.  Considering that the Punch Out series was dead for 15 years, these numbers are great.  Hell, if Punch Out Wii continues to have good legs, it could end up breaking the million mark, something the previous game, Super Punch Out, never did.

Really now, if your going to pick a Nintendo game at least make sure it actually did poorly.  Like Excitebots, that is a Nintendo game that bombed horribly.  Of course we all now the reason why that game bombed and it wasn't because their wasn't an audience for it.  Luckily Reggie remembered to actually advertise and build up hype for Punch Out which is why it sold well, unlike Excitebots.

[Peachylala]

Nintendo of America's advertising firm is a very interesting beast all together. They advertised the hell out of Starfy and Punch Out, but hardly gave anything to Excitebots and Metroid Prime 3, and Wario Land Shake It.

If I remember correctly, the order of sales were Metroid Prime >>> Wario Land >>> Excitebots.

It's bad when a 2-D (that is excellent) can leave an over the top racing game in the dust.

[ThePerm]

im pretty sure the Wii with its widest userbase has a lot more than one demographic, publishers just are unwilling to take risks, or they just don't know what things AREN'T risks.

Gamers go where the games are. Thats one thign they should get through their head. They believe "well, this isn't the right type of console for this game", and thats stupid, because game consoles are marginally different. If the game is good people will buy it.

[Luigi Dude]

Nintendo of America's advertising firm is a very interesting beast all together. They advertised the hell out of Starfy and Punch Out, but hardly gave anything to Excitebots and Metroid Prime 3, and Wario Land Shake It.

If I remember correctly, the order of sales were Metroid Prime >>> Wario Land >>> Excitebots.

It's bad when a 2-D (that is excellent) can leave an over the top racing game in the dust.

I get the feeling that NCL gives NOA a limited budget and tell them what they can spend it on.  The majority is probably only to be used on the heavy hitters like Mario, Pokemon and the Wii series while NOA then has to try and balance out the remaining amount for the lesser series.

Since games like Wario Land and Metroid were parts of long running existing series, NOA probably felt they could get away with not advertising since they both already have an existing fanbase.  For Starfy since it's a brand new series, they had to advertise it to inform people.  Same for Punch Out since the series had been dead for 15 years, reviving it now basically made it a new series to some people.

My guess on Excitebots is since Excitetrucks did good for the Wii launch, NOA thought that people who bought that game would buy this, only that wasn't the case.  I'd imagine that if they had made an Excitetrucks 2 and treated it like they treated Excitebots it probably would have done much better just because people would have known it was a true sequel.

[KDR_11k]

I've long said that Nintendo's problem is that they assume making something for everyone involves making every game for everyone and that's why they often stick to family-friendly games.

They have to, Nintendo can only make so many games so they can't go around and serve niches all the time because then every individual niche would be underserved as the rate of releases would be fairly low.

Sony's strategy to offer something for everyone was to make games that appeal to different demographics so that everyone can find a game that is catered to their tastes.  It's the different between making five games that five different people COULD like and creating one game each for those five people.  Sony will make both God of War and Buzz! which are almost polar opposite of each other.

A difference is that Sony relies primarily on third parties. The release schedule for each niche is sparse but third parties fill the gaps. Though it looks to me like they're focusing on the xPS niche lately.

One funny thing about Buzz and Singstar is that they're very low on graphical requirements (noone cares what they look like) so it's very hard for Sony to convince the buyers of those series to switch to the PS3 because the games don't benefit from the switch.

[SixthAngel]

I am amazed with the rose colored glasses everyone sees the GC with.

I still think its funny how people still think HD is some sort of big selling point.  It has to be one of the marketing terms that I hate the most.   It reminds of of the old days when PC gamers would brag about their high res graphics yet most console owners didn't care.  Enter the present consoles and they brag about their high def (cool new term) graphics and still most console owners don't care.  Last I checked most people with a 360 either didn't know about the hd capability or didn't even know how to hook it up correctly.

Motion controls with HD  after the name and more expensive aren't going anywhere.  They need to bring a new name to the table.  I just have no idea what it could be.  The release list for this isn't so hot right now and the novelty is gone since Nintendo beat them to the punch with M+.  Ape Escape might be good, I loved the first one.  Motion controls are easily my favorite thing this gen so I hope they are at least competent.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I didn't get to go into detail earlier, but the PS3 is gonna get a firmware update that supposedly lets the PS3 do 3D on all games that are hooked up to a 3D capable TV(120hz & HDMI 1.3).

Take GEM with it's 3D Motion Tracking capabilities and the ability to display in 3D at the same time and you might have something worth making a fuss over. Only question is can Sony make that happen, make it fun, affordable and market the hell out of it till people care?

[SixthAngel]

I didn't get to go into detail earlier, but the PS3 is gonna get a firmware update that supposedly lets the PS3 do 3D on all games that are hooked up to a 3D capable TV(120hz & HDMI 1.3).

Take GEM with it's 3D Motion Tracking capabilities and the ability to display in 3D at the same time and you might have something worth making a fuss over. Only question is can Sony make that happen, make it fun, affordable and market the hell out of it till people care?

I can't say I know much about it.  Is it the good 3d like in imax theaters?  I really like the 3d in UP.  If it actually looks like you touch the picture it would be amazing, though I think they would have shown it if thats the case.

[Deguello]

Yeah.  I guess you're right.  Punch Out is a core game, and it certainly cleaned up at retail this year.

You do realize last time any data was shown, Punch Out sold over 400,000 copies after it's third month on the NPD?  It dropped out of the top 20 in it's 4th month, but games out of the top 20 can still put up numbers up to 100K depending on the month.  Unless Punch Out stopped selling completely after it's 3rd month, it could easily be anywhere between 500-800K in North America right now.  Considering that the Punch Out series was dead for 15 years, these numbers are great.  Hell, if Punch Out Wii continues to have good legs, it could end up breaking the million mark, something the previous game, Super Punch Out, never did.

Really now, if your going to pick a Nintendo game at least make sure it actually did poorly.  Like Excitebots, that is a Nintendo game that bombed horribly.  Of course we all now the reason why that game bombed and it wasn't because their wasn't an audience for it.  Luckily Reggie remembered to actually advertise and build up hype for Punch Out which is why it sold well, unlike Excitebots.

Oh, don't use facts on the troll, Luigi Dude.  He'll never read it anyway or absorb the info anyway.  He just wants to sound clever and fashion himself as some sort of "fanboy hammer" or something.  You already put more thought into it than he did.

About Sony's Motion Controller and 3D TV... if they seriously think they should ask people to upgrade their TVs... again, then they're pretty damn crazy.  And it's not like their gaming division has a lot of money to throw around anyway, so I doubt this is their path.  Unless they ARE crazy and want to fund another expensive boondoggle like Cell.

EDIT: And, excuse me but may I interject with a "what the blazing ****?" about this rose-colored nostalgia some of you guys have with the GameCube?  Do you guys not remember just how hated it was, especially here?  Did you not remember the almost daily bullcrap about online gameplay over and over, the failed connectivity games, the blistering editorials every quarter about how Nintendo should appeal to adults with "mature games?"  I agree with Sixth.  It's pretty amazing what's been forgotten about the GC is such a short time.

[broodwars]

The 3D update for the PS3 sounds cool, as I would like the option of being able to watch 3D-enabled Blu-Rays in 3D through my PS3.  Problem is, my HD TV (which is actually a 24-in. computer monitor with multimedia inputs) can't display in 3D, and I'm not buying an expensive new TV just for the gimmick.  I'm quite content with UP looking phenomenal on Blu-Ray in 2D already.

[Chozo Ghost]

I don't think most of us have really forgotten about the GC's failings. Its just that they are old news now and we'd prefer not to think about them. Instead, we would rather focus on what the GC did right, and it actually did do SOME things well.

[broodwars]

Well, I certainly haven't forgotten what the GC years were like: mediocre 3rd party support; goofy Nintendo gimmicks (pity that didn't die with the GC), horrible franchise sequels (Mario Sunshine and Star Fox Assault, among others I've probably mentally blocked out); and long periods without much of interest coming out.  The thing is, I suffered through the N64 years as well, and by comparison we were living like kings with the GC.  Also, as bad as things could be on the GC, I look at my shelf and although I've trimmed my collection over the years I still have a large number of GC titles, though.  My collection of "worth keeping" Wii games doesn't even number half as many games (and hell, one of those games is two GC games slapped together in the Metroid Prime Trilogy), and we're headed towards Wii's final years.  So for me, for all its problems I still consider the GC a console worth fondly remembering.

I will give full blame to the GC for being the genesis of that abomination that is the Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles line of games, though.   

[KDR_11k]

Nintendo always did goofy gimmicks though, they're a toy company after all.

[Deguello]

Such gimmicks like the standard controller.

An interesting thought about third parties and this new motion controller from Sony.  Who thinks anything worthwhile will actually come from them when they can't even make decent Wii games 3 years in?  I mean, you know the TYPES of games they've made for the Wii... is anybody really optimistic that they'll do any different on the PS3 with this?

[BlackNMild2k1]

They've been saving their efforts for when PS360 hopped on the bandwagon.
Everything up till then was just practice in seeing how motion works in the games.
THe creativity starts sometime next year while the WIi continues getting "test".

[broodwars]

Such gimmicks like the standard controller.

An interesting thought about third parties and this new motion controller from Sony.  Who thinks anything worthwhile will actually come from them when they can't even make decent Wii games 3 years in?  I mean, you know the TYPES of games they've made for the Wii... is anybody really optimistic that they'll do any different on the PS3 with this?

I don't know, but I'm hopeful at least that it can't get much worse than it already is on the Wii so the only place to go is up.  It depends on what studios support the motion controls; with what teams and budget; and whether there will be fan early-adoption, but I do think we'll see (just as we did with the Wii) some good teams on the motion control bandwagon at first.  After all, remember when Capcom was doing amazing stuff on the Wii like RE4 Wii and Zack & Wiki?  Then no one bought the experimental games, and we got mostly shovelware the rest of the way.

[Urkel]

I'm not expecting much to come out of Natal and GEM due to third parties relying on multiplatform releases. They're two completely different control types that wouldn't work with each other. Maybe some first party studios will come out with something interesting, but I just expect the third party stuff to be largely tacked on to existing games.