Topic: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?

[Urkel]

Oh, God! This thread is getting more and more hilarious. It'll make quality Funhouse material a year from now.

But I'm a glutton for punishment, so let's keep this trainwreck going...

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Originally posted by: BigJim I will spell it out again. Nintendo is not big enough to satisfy all audiences. That is evidenced by those vocally unsatisfied in just about every Nintendo forum, and by others here that even made note that Nintendo couldn't satisfy ONE audience as far back as the N64 days.

Those "vocally unsatisfied" are more or less the same people that were "vocally unsatisfied" during the first year or so of the DS' existence. They were saying the exact same things about the DS that are being said about the Wii now. i.e. "NON-GAMES... BAAAAD.... GRAAAAAGHHH" and "DS will never get any real third party support" etc. etc.

Nowadays it's virtually impossible to find someone who is "vocally unsatisfied" about the DS, outside of some PSP forum.

The Wii is following the same formula as the DS; that being a system with relatively low horsepower and an innovative input.

The DS didn't have jack sh!t for third party support for nearly a year, and it really started to take a beating once the PSP launched. So how did they turn this around? Of course, the kneejerk reaction is "It's teh next gameboy!!! Of course it's gonna sell!!!", but that doesn't explain why the DS had such a hard time so soon after launch. No, the real reason had to do with a mix of big name Nintendo "gamer" franchises (Mario Kart, New Super Mario Bros.) and new "non-gamer" games (Nintendogs, Brain Age).

Whether or not you agree that that's why the DS started to sell well is irrelevent. What matters is that it DID start to sell, and that's when the "real" 3rd party support started to materialize.

And the Wii is selling well. Very, very well. "Fastest selling console of all time" kind of well. And THAT is why I don't worry about 3rd party support. Because 3rd parties always give the most support (both quantitatively and qualitatively speaking) to the best selling system, without fail, unless my videogames history is a bit fuzzy.

[BigJim]

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Originally posted by: UERD

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Their market expansion IS changing their audience. Their demographic is changing. Therefore their audience is changing. They're not doing one without the other.

Their audience makeup is changing because they're not capable of luring the XBox crowd away with little more than an innovative controller and Nintendo first parties. To improve Wii sales over their abysmal last-gen performance, they have to look beyond their core Nintendo hardcore audience. They can either go for the 'other gamers' or the 'nongamers'. Guess which one they chose.

This isn't a matter of 'there are 100 million people in the US wanting to play Nintendo games the same way they've been played since N64, but who haven't gotten around to buying a Nintendo unit yet'. This is a matter of 'the core audience of people willing to play games the old way is not going to be growing much more in the future, and Nintendo can't really expand its market base within that core audience'.

I think people have the impression that the fun casual games and the wide audience is a nice, but ultimately non-essential accessory to a console whose 'core assets' should be its conventional games. I wish it could be that way, but it really can't. If Wii had been an XBox 360/PS3-esque machine with oodles of power, what would have changed? The Cube was plenty powerful during its era, and it still sold pretty badly. What would have changed Nintendo's fortunes this time around? Even more power? Even better core games? It's not like GameCube lacked 'good games' and that's why people didn't buy it. Sony and Microsoft did a really good job implicitly branding Nintendo as 'age-challenged-people-friendly' (sorry, banned word), and it would have been a waste of time to fight that label. Would a console filled with Manhunt 2-esque games be the end-all of hardcore gaming? Probably not.

Sega lagged the market and eventually fell out of the console business altogether. Nintendo lagged the market and is roaring back after more than a decade of being the underdog. How many times has that happened in the history of business?

I know the casual games are bleh, and that there's a dearth of information, but they are at the very least a necessary evil, building the install base that Nintendo needs if it wants to do anything grand with the console market at all in the future.

I agree with pretty much everything here. They can expand the market from Hell to breakfast for all I care. Nobody really disagrees with what they need to to do survive.

The bone of contention lies where others ignore or dismiss the fact that the change is happening, that everything is as perpetually awesome as ever, everyone should be satisfied with everything, and anybody that isn't satisfied because they don't get enough of what they want doesn't have a valid opinion. That's the bickering in a nutshell.

[IceCold]

Hats off to UERD and Urkel, and also Mario for saying what so many of you seem to be forgetting..

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Originally posted by: Mario

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We're concerned with what comes next, and why Nintendo insists on keep so quiet about that.

They would be STUPID to hype any games too far in the distance with this massive load coming. Consumers money is to stay focused on these holiday games until their money is spent. COMMON SENSE!

EDIT: BigJim.. ignoring all the "non-games" the Wii has got and looking at the Wii from a pure gamer's perspective.. can't you agree that the Wii is doing better than the GameCube already?

[BigJim]

Mashiro, clearly you've resigned yourself from the discussion because you're no longer making sense. I'm pretty sure most of this doesn't even dignify any response, but hey, I can't sleep so it's all good.

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@ BIgJim yeah it's my opinion that only two games were showcased for E3 from Nintendo that will be on in 2008. Certainly not a fact or anything. Certainly not.

I must've missed the part where I denied they showed two 2008 games. Taking the fact/opinion issue and blending it with something I didn't dispute, and somehow I am wrong. Awesome!

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Nintendo CLERLY doesn't have games coming out for both the non-gamer and gamer, clearly not.

Sadly, I have to repeat again: "The existance of those specific titles is not the point. Quality and volume is the point. Until they and 3rd parties show up with high caliber products in regular quality and quantity, NOT ports, NOT last-gen wares, NOT licensed crap, and NOT poorly made sequels, then the hardcore lineup is going to be considered spotty by some."

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Oh and of course Nintendo is abandoning us and the world is ending. God how could I not see this before!

There's YOUR word again.

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BigJim you have no freaking clue what the hell factual statements are vs sheer opinion based statements. In 2008 even if Nintendo was to have say 15 "non-games" and 15 "gamer games" (of equal quality) and I said "Well they catered to both audiences evenly" would you say that is fact? Or would you say "Well that's your OPINION see even though it is technically even I mean it's still just an opinion".

Thanks for the assessment. But yes I do know what factual statements are. What do you mean by "equal quality"? Gamer gamers that are of equal quality to non-games? They can't be compared. But if you mean in general high-quality gamer titles then yes the ratios are even. But ratio doesn't matter. They can make 500 non-games a year for all anybody really cares. The issue (as I just re-quoted) is sufficient quantity and quality, for which they lack until they and 3rd parties, etc. etc. (see the re-quote).

[Mashiro]

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Sadly, I have to repeat again: "The existance of those specific titles is not the point. Quality and volume is the point. Until they and 3rd parties show up with high caliber products in regular quality and quantity, NOT ports, NOT last-gen wares, NOT licensed crap, and NOT poorly made sequels, then the hardcore lineup is going to be considered spotty by some."

::sighs:: So what do you want Nintendo to release games in a line up like MP3, SMG and SSBB EVERY year? That's a tall order.

I guess that is what everyone needs to sleep more soundly at night.

and as for third parties, have patience, remember Wii got a late start with third party support but it's finally starting to come (DQS looks promising for example).

Remember NO ONE EXPECTED THE WII TO TAKE OFF LIKE THIS. Did Sony Playstation or heck even Playstation 2 have an immensely hardcore high quality line up of games from third parties from the get go? No.

You people just demand the world, you want EVERYTHING to be shown to you NOW. If you don't see high quality titles out the wazzo the Wii is a failure and gamers are being abandoned. I'm sorry Nintendo and third parties didn't reveal all their plans for 2008 for you yet.

Maybe you should look into an Xbox 360 or PS3 I hear those systems only have high quality games and nothing else. No crap what so ever. Nope only 100% pure high quality games.  

Edit: and you know what? here's an idea, let's see what happens when TGS passes. THEN let's pass some judgement about Nintendo not showing us or delivering on their promise shall we?  

[BigJim]

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Oh, God! This thread is getting more and more hilarious. It'll make quality Funhouse material a year from now.

LOL. I'm starting to agree.

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Those "vocally unsatisfied" are more or less the same people that were "vocally unsatisfied" during the first year or so of the DS' existence.

Possibly, but not me as far as I can remember. I'm not big on portables so I didn't really have a strong opinion either way.

I can't speak for all of them, but I do think that many, at the heart of it, don't really care about the non-game stuff in and of itself. Nintendo's history has demonstrated droughts and therefore a split focus has the potential to threaten equal or more of them. I'm not a regular DS game buyer so I can't really say much about the lineup, I'm happy with the handful of games I did buy (even the non-games! shock! horror! ) but the DS is a different beast and one doesn't really lend proof to the other. That is the hope, though. But we'll see.

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And the Wii is selling well. Very, very well. "Fastest selling console of all time" kind of well. And THAT is why I don't worry about 3rd party support. Because 3rd parties always give the most support (both quantitatively and qualitatively speaking) to the best selling system, without fail, unless my videogames history is a bit fuzzy.

True enough. The only asterisk there is that all consoles until now were gamer focused, and who knows exactly how Wii's success will skew support this time. It's certainly the hope that the 3rd parties will show up with the big guns, and lots of them, and that this "we were caught off guard so we gotta throw some crap together ASAP" really is a phase and not the norm.

Sorry, this post didn't turn out crazy at all... damn real discussion! ::throws fist::

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EDIT: BigJim.. ignoring all the "non-games" the Wii has got and looking at the Wii from a pure gamer's perspective.. can't you agree that the Wii is doing better than the GameCube already?

I'd say that they've had a better start than GameCube, yep. Nintendo's having an early blowout with their old reliables (I say with affection). So with the wad being shot early, it'll be interesting to see what actually happens next.

[Kairon]

Actually, objectively, isn't the Wii on par or actually ahead of the GC in terms of hardcore game delivery, first-party and third-party combined?

Eternal Darkness, Wave Race, James Bond, Sonic Adventure 2, Smash, Pikmin, Extreme G, Rogue Squadron, Luigi's Mansion and a couple more games maybe...

versus

Zelda, Excite Truck, Super Paper Mario, RE4: Wii, Godfather, Scarface, Elebits, Sonic SOTR, Trauma Center, and definitely a slew of other games, from FPS' to sports titles to Warioware.

I certainly understand that the future isn't as set in stone as some wish it to be, but the past speaks for itself... so far we haven't seen any shift away from hardcore game titles, just an increase in the alternatives being offered.

[Mashiro]

Well said karion well said.

I agree 100%

(1st post from my wii lol)

[Requiem]

Disappointed with E3? Sure.

Disappointed that no new killer IP (besides WiiFit) was announced? I can see that.

Disappointed in third party support? I don't see why...

Disappointed in this year's line-up? ARE YOU RETARDED?!

Can I just list some games for you?

Zack and Wiki. Endless Ocean. BWii. EA sports package. MP3. Mario Strikers. Mario Galaxy. Super Smash Bros. Soul Calibur Legends. Ghost Squad. Tony Hawk. Dragon Blade. Naruto. Guilty Gear. GodZilla. Need For Speed. Indy 500 Legends....and there's many more.

Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?

THEN SHUT THE HELL UP!

[Pittbboi]

Wow...we can say we're not disappointed in this year's lineup 'till we're blue in the face, and it just won't sink in...

[BigJim]

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::sighs:: So what do you want Nintendo to release games in a line up like MP3, SMG and SSBB EVERY year? That's a tall order.

Yeah, it definitely is. That's why 3rd parties are all the more critical. How they choose to stand up to the order remains to be seen. Rarely have they demonstrated ample dedication to Nintendo's console. I know it's easy to say to have patience, but some of us have been sitting on our hands off and on for years waiting for such support. We're at a "show me" point.

Gamers were very well supported with PS2 last gen and with the Xbox 360 so far this gen. The Wii is capable of meeting that tall order. All parties involved just have to want it. It's a complete mystery after 2007 what will happen. All we have is history to guide us.

We don't really have a choice but to be patient, though. So on it goes.

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You people just demand the world, you want EVERYTHING to be shown to you NOW. If you don't see high quality titles out the wazzo the Wii is a failure and gamers are being abandoned.

Customers and potential customers are allowed to be demanding. And I'll just ignore the "abandoned" word from now on. LOL. I've not used that in my posts here so I don't know why it's resurrected so much.

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Maybe you should look into an Xbox 360 or PS3 I hear those systems only have high quality games and nothing else. No crap what so ever. Nope only 100% pure high quality games.

::looks over at a newly unpackaged PS3::

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Edit: and you know what? here's an idea, let's see what happens when TGS passes. THEN let's pass some judgement about Nintendo not showing us or delivering on their promise shall we?

More waiting? Ah gee wiz.

[Pittbboi]

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More waiting? Ah gee wiz.

Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"

[BigJim]

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Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?

THEN SHUT THE HELL UP!

OH SNAPZ!

::examines sample list::

Galaxy, possibly Brawl if I ask for it as a gift, maybe Soul Caliber...

Guess I'm not shutting the hell up.

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Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"

LOL.    

[Mario]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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More waiting? Ah gee wiz.

Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"

Or you could actually play the games that came out.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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More waiting? Ah gee wiz.

Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"

That's the astounding thing though. If Sony and MS had announced heavy 2008 projects at E3, then it'd be easy to criticize Nintendo. But because ALL of E3 was a "this year" event, it's no longer the gauge of long-term development commitment that we're accustomed to using it as. Our sources for information about the games industry are changing and in many ways becoming less reliable, or at least less centralized.

And because E3 has just failed us like never before, we're left high and dry for long-term indicators... there's no wonder that we have anxiety about the future, what with the non-game controversy combined with the E3 let down, with a good helping of fanboi intensity thrown in for good measure.

If there's any better solution to this than a compromise of patience, an extension of the "where's-the-proof" deadline until the TGS in September, then I'd like to hear it. But that's the only sensible and rational answer I can come up with, hoping that patience really is the virtue everyone proclaims it to be.

[Mashiro]

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Originally posted by: Kairon

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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More waiting? Ah gee wiz.

Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"

That's the astounding thing though. If Sony and MS had announced heavy 2008 projects at E3, then it'd be easy to criticize Nintendo. But because ALL of E3 was a "this year" event, it's no longer the gauge of long-term development commitment that we're accustomed to using it as. Our sources for information about the games industry are changing and in many ways becoming less reliable, or at least less centralized.

And because E3 has just failed us like never before, we're left high and dry for long-term indicators... there's no wonder that we have anxiety about the future, what with the non-game controversy combined with the E3 let down, with a good helping of fanboi intensity thrown in for good measure.

If there's any better solution to this than a compromise of patience, an extension of the "where's-the-proof" deadline until the TGS in September, then I'd like to hear it. But that's the only sensible and rational answer I can come up with, hoping that patience really is the virtue everyone proclaims it to be.

Again Karion is right on the money.

Like I said before wait until TGS to pass judgement. If TGS rolls around and we STILL get nothing new ok then I will be a little worried and confused as to what Nintendo has planned beyond 2007 but for now, as Karion said, since no one this E3 really showed what's planned for 2008 (outside of Sony which was games we've already known, no big surprises) it's hard to pass judgement on Nintendo for not showing more.

Edit: BigJim I'm just curious . . . what games do you have for PS3? =)  

[King of Twitch]

E3 was rolled back big time so in a way it's disappointing it has lost the christmas morning charm. But the blame lies at the feet of the Microsoft and Sonyist entities who are conspiring to bring about the collapse of video games, and clamping down on the media to create a vaccuum of doubt is an important step. Dismantling such a longstanding beacon of videogame hope and prestige that is E3, is a travesty for which they must be wiped off the map. A world without Sony and MS is both possible and feasible.

[UERD]

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That's why 3rd parties are all the more critical. How they choose to stand up to the order remains to be seen. Rarely have they demonstrated ample dedication to Nintendo's console. I know it's easy to say to have patience, but some of us have been sitting on our hands off and on for years waiting for such support. We're at a "show me" point.

I agree that 3rd parties are critical- I think they're probably the most critical part of the puzzle. But if that's the case, what is Nintendo supposed to do? They're already giving them developer support, asking them to make quality games, doing at least everything that Sony did during the PS/PS2 era plus more. Right now it's boneheaded mentalities like "we don't want to see PS3 fail, but we don't want to see them overwhelmingly succeed" (c.f. Square Enix) that's really screwing us over.

Yes, Wii's been selling very well lately. But people are still saying things about it that they didn't say when the PS, PS2, or XBox were released. Nintendo has an uphill climb in terms of perception and reception, and it may very well be a bit longer before third parties grudgingly agree that the Wii is not an evanescent trend.

[Pittbboi]

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That's the astounding thing though. If Sony and MS had announced heavy 2008 projects at E3, then it'd be easy to criticize Nintendo. But because ALL of E3 was a "this year" event, it's no longer the gauge of long-term development commitment that we're accustomed to using it as. Our sources for information about the games industry are changing and in many ways becoming less reliable, or at least less centralized.

But that's just inaccurate--Sony announced a lot of software they have planned for 2008. Even Nintendo announced 2008 projects (Wii Fit and Mario Kart). Only Microsoft went the "Strictly 2007" route, really.

And, come on, E3 is NOT a completely different event. Outside of a change of venue and a more exclusive list of attendees, E3 is pretty much exactly the same, with all the same features of all the past E3s, just smaller. And really, Nintendo is the only company that treated it any differently. Sony and Microsoft (outside of not showing software for 2008) and pretty much every 3rd party developer that was there used this E3 to showcase their major projects. So, really, enough with this "E3 is sooo different, man" thing. Sure, it's changed, but in most areas that COUNT, it's still the same event.

[Nick DiMola]

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Even Nintendo announced 2008 projects (Wii Fit and Mario Kart)

Incorrect, Wii Fit has no release date. Mario Kart is releasing Q1 so it's barely in 2008, hell it's probably there because there are so many big titles set to release at the end of this year they didn't want to overcrowd the release schedule. Regardless, 2 projects (that we already knew about) for Q1 2008 doesn't mean Nintendo showed off next year's goods, that stuff is just spill over from this year. E3 itself didn't really change too much, they just made it smaller and less carnival like, however Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony are the ones who made it really change by toning down their own E3 presentations, keeping more under wraps and focusing on one big title for the show.  

[Mashiro]

Again I find myself agreeing with Mr. Jack.

Also, Sony only showed primarily stuff for 2008 because well . . . ALL their big stuff is coming in 2008! It would be like if Nintendo had nothing coming out this holiday season and SMG, SSBB, and Metriod were all coming out in '08 and just skimmed over the 2007 stuff.

What killer app does PS3 have for the holiday season? I know Nintendo has 3 . . .

[Pittbboi]

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Regardless, 2 projects (that we already knew about) for Q1 2008 doesn't mean Nintendo showed off next year's goods, that stuff is just spill over from this year.

I didn't say they showed off next year's good (actually, my argument this whole time is a lot closer to the opposite). I was responding to Kairon saying that this E3 is difference because nobody announced 2008 projects. That just isn't true. That was the only point I was making.

And really, Nintendo was the only company who kept major things under wraps. Sony pretty much bared all because they HAD to, and though Microsoft stuck to a "this year" philosophy, they showed EVERYTHING they had coming this year--unlike Nintendo. For example, there's NO logical reason for Brawl not having a presence at this E3 when the game is set to be released on December 3rd. Metroid Prime 3 could have had a much bigger presence as well. And, unless Disaster was pushed back again (which is highly likely), there was no reason to not have info present on that game, either.Nintendo was the ONLY company that was so mum on stuff that's being released in less than 6 months time.  

[Infernal Monkey]

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Originally posted by: Requiem

Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?

Oooh, me, me, I can!

- Chicken Shoot
- High School Musical: Sing It!
- Billy the Wizard
- Dave Mirra BMX Challenge
- Disney Princess: Enchanted Journey

[therat]

so when is e3 happening this year?

[Requiem]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

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Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?

THEN SHUT THE HELL UP!

OH SNAPZ!

::examines sample list::

Galaxy, possibly Brawl if I ask for it as a gift, maybe Soul Caliber...

Guess I'm not shutting the hell up.

LOL.

Dude that list hits up every single genre: from point and click, to live-action RTS. There has to be something more you are interested in.

P.S. Why did you buy a PS3? It has a worse line-up! I don't here you bitching about that!

Sounds like we have a hypocrite on our hands.