Topic: NBA Thread: Brought To You By The Tampa Bay Raptors Of Toronto

[broodwars]

While the Lakers being incompetent is hardly surprising, Rob Pelinka not understanding the cap/CBA is.

Does anyone remember Carlos Boozer’s departure from the Cavaliers in 2004? He was due to earn $700,000 on an option year, well below his production at the time averaging a double-double in points/rebounds. There was apparently a gentleman’s agreement between the Cavaliers’ front office and Boozer/his agent. The Cavaliers chose not to pick up the option, allowing Boozer to become a restricted free agent. Instead of signing the Cavaliers’ six year, $41 million offer, he signed the Jazz’s six year, $68 million offer which the Cavaliers could not match. Boozer’s agent was Rob Pelinka. The agency was apparently so horrified by this they dropped Boozer as a client (which almost never happens) and Pelinka resigned. It’s believed he was forced out because he orchestrated the entire thing.

1. This is one of the reasons everyone hates Rob Pelinka.

I wonder if he was Derek Fisher's agent, too, considering the "gentlemen's agreement" that the Jazz organization had with him. The Jazz released him from his contract so he could move to another city where his child could have better medical care, rather than having to be separated from them to play for the Jazz every few nights. Then Fisher turned right around and signed with the Lakers, causing Jazz fans to despise him.

[BeautifulShy]

Looks like Atlanta is getting New Orleans 4th pick for  8 ,17 and 35 picks.  So Atlanta has the 4 and 10 picks now.

Minnesota has traded the number 11 pick and Dario Saric to Phoenix for the number 6 pick.
I hope that Phoenix has a free agent picked out for point guard otherwise they may regret this trade.  They do get a position of need with the PF spot.

[Soren]

Since BlacknMild is not here I'll pick up the slack.

Warriors bought the #41 pick from the Hawks for 1.7 million. GSW now have the 28,41 and 58 picks and hopefully we get one decent player from that because we are going to need it.

[BeautifulShy]

Looks like the starting lineup for the Pels is going to be this. Lonzo, J. Holiday, Ingram, Zion and Jaxson Hayes. Very solid.

[BeautifulShy]

So with Atlanta taking the 4 pick they take De'Andre Hunter and Cam Reddish at 10 the AD trade could be changing.    Atlanta could take on Bonga, Wagner and Jones and it could be beneficial to the Pels because they can get some extra cap space to go along with their starting lineup detailed below.
https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2019/6/20/18693752/lakers-rumors-hawks-pelicans-anthony-davis-trade-max-cap-room-free-agency-agent-2019-nba-draft

[Soren]

Can't wait to see Mario Chalmers sign a minimum deal and get meaningful minutes for the Lakers next year.

[broodwars]

So...remember what I said about the Jazz finding most of their success in the 2nd Round of the Draft? True to form, the Jazz got really aggressive this year in the 2nd round, drafting 3 guards to the "City of Utah" (including trading with Golden State for 1 pick):

- Miye Oni (Yale)
- Jarrell Brantley (Charleston)
- Justin Wright-Foreman (Hofstra)

I don't follow College Ball, so I have no idea if these 3 are any good or actually NBA-ready. I am just a little surprised that the Jazz were so guard-focused this year, especially after already trading for Conley. I suspect we're going to see some more trades out of the Jazz come the Free Agency period, because the Jazz haven't traditionally had much luck drafting guards (with the one notable exception where they drafted the Best Point Guard of All Time...and I'll fight you if you say otherwise.  ).

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't remember the Jazz drafting Steph Curry.... or Magic Johnson ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

but anyway, what did the Dubs trade for to give up that #58 pick?
was it cash? 2 more picks? a spare Achilles and an ACL, not to mention 2 ankles, 2 hamstrings, a quad and some chest cartilage?

[broodwars]

but anyway, what did the Dubs trade for to give up that #58 pick?
was it cash? 2 more picks? a spare Achilles and an ACL, not to mention 2 ankles, 2 hamstrings, a quad and some chest cartilage?

I'm having trouble pinning down what the circumstances of the trade was, but the implication seems to be cash.

https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2019/6/20/18700293/2019-nba-draft-warriors-sell-second-round-pick-jazz-yale-miye-oni

Cash also seems to be how they acquired that 2nd round pick of Indiana's that got them Jarrell Brantley.

And according to the Jazz's GM, they're going to be as aggressive as the fans have always wanted them to be come Free Agency. This should be an interesting off-season. 

[BeautifulShy]

So the Lakers bought a second round pick from the Magic and got Talen Horton-Tucker with the 46th pick. He is being described as a Charles Barkley in shape with Kawai Leonards hands at the shooting guard position which was a need.   

Linky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7ccT3xSlV0
Here is a scouting report on him. https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/6/2/18646325/talen-horton-tucker-scouting-report-nba-draft-iowa-state-atlanta-hawks

[ejamer]

... described as a Charles Barkley in shape with Kawai Leonards hands at the shooting guard position ...

So a mix of Barkely and Leonard, and still available at the 46th pick? Huh...

*shakes head*
I love the excitement during the draft, but was thinking last night about how fruitless all these comparisons and knee-jerk grades/analysis are. Sometimes they get it right; usually it's a bunch of silliness. Looking back at 2016 where most pundits ripped the Raptors for selecting Pascal Siakam, and where VanVleet went undrafted, it feels like some of the analysts (and maybe even some of the scouts) are just as clueless as me about talent coming out of college.

[Adrock]

I wonder if he was Derek Fisher's agent, too, considering the "gentlemen's agreement" that the Jazz organization had with him.

I checked Pelinka’s Wikipedia page, and yes.

I typically side with players on these matters. Yes, even Boozer. It was hella shiesty but get paid. I just don’t feel bad for billionaire owners when it comes to money. You bought a professional sports team, and it’s going to cost you if you want to build a winner. The Cavaliers could have matched the Jazz’s offer except they didn’t want to pay the luxury tax.

As for Fisher, I won’t pretend I know where the best eye cancer facilities are in the country. I don’t think it’s a stretch that Los Angeles and New York have some of the best doctors in the country. He gave up $24 million over three years to sign with the Lakers as a role player under the 2007 salary cap. There aren’t a lot of things that could make me give up $24 million. “My daughter has cancer” would be one of them.

... described as a Charles Barkley in shape with Kawai Leonards hands at the shooting guard position ...

So a mix of Barkely and Leonard, and still available at the 46th pick? Huh...

*shakes head*

Hold on. Let’s take a step back. BeautifulShy wasn’t commenting or implying skillset or talent.

“Charles Barkley’s shape” suggests to me Tucker needs to drop some weight. Barkley was a power forward and known as the “Round Mound of Rebound.” He was also 6’4” and purposely ballooned up to 300 lbs to dissuade the Sixers from drafting him because the salary cap limited what the Sixers could pay him (prime Barkley was roughly 250 lbs). Tucker is a shooting guard at 234 lbs. For comparisons’ sake, Kobe Bryant was 212 lbs at 6’6”. Kawhi Leonard is 229 lbs at 6’7” but primarily plays small forward.

“Kawhi Leonard’s hands” = Tucker also has freakishly large hands. That doesn’t say anything about how good his defense is.

This is one of many reasons I don’t like player comparisons. When someone exaggerates or re-contextualizes someone else’s words, the words don’t mean anything anymore.

Player comps = lazy analysis. They’re great for sound bytes but read like bad Spark Notes. If you’re not paying attention, every bald, black guy who jumps high is Michael Jordan. Looking at everyone who called Harold Miner “Baby Jordan.”

[ejamer]

... described as a Charles Barkley in shape with Kawai Leonards hands at the shooting guard position ...

So a mix of Barkely and Leonard, and still available at the 46th pick? Huh...

*shakes head*

Hold on. Let’s take a step back. ...
re-contextualizes someone else’s words, the words don’t mean anything anymore.
...

So first, I'm not attributing anything to BeautifulShy here, and assume the comparisons are coming from a talking head somewhere.

Second, you've changed the words, which had an ambiguous meaning before. Having the "Charles Barkley's shape" is unambiguous and decided less flattering than "Charles Barkley in shape" which I mistakenly thought could suggest a more physically fit version of Barkley. That error is on me, apologies for misunderstanding.

Finally, anytime someone invokes two Hall of Fame caliber players to make comparisons it will (intentionally or not) create a certain type of expectation. They could easily have said "body like a young Oliver Miller with hands the size of Noah Vonleh", or plenty of other comparisons. They didn't, and chose two absolute superstars.

That was my whole point: draft day commentary tends to be 90% drivel and 10% speculation. It's exciting to watch the picks and dream of what might be... but so terribly hollow, and so often the comments and comparisons end up being outright wrong.

[broodwars]

I wonder if he was Derek Fisher's agent, too, considering the "gentlemen's agreement" that the Jazz organization had with him.

As for Fisher, I won’t pretend I know where the best eye cancer facilities are in the country. I don’t think it’s a stretch that Los Angeles and New York have some of the best doctors in the country. He gave up $24 million over three years to sign with the Lakers as a role player under the 2007 salary cap. There aren’t a lot of things that could make me give up $24 million. “My daughter has cancer” would be one of them.

The "gentlemen's agreement" was that Fisher would sign with the Knicks or some other team that wasn't a direct challenger to the Jazz. Instead, he went with one of our major rivals at the time.

... described as a Charles Barkley in shape with Kawai Leonards hands at the shooting guard position ...

So a mix of Barkely and Leonard, and still available at the 46th pick? Huh...

*shakes head*

You know, I remember when Jose Calderon of the Raptors was being called the "2nd coming of John Stockton" in his early years. Jazz fans had a good laugh at that for a long time.

[Soren]

GSW reached for Jordan Poole at 28 but I respect the hustle and hope he can hit his shots.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about the other 2 picks so I just hope they can develop into something useful.

[Adrock]

@ejamer
I only intended to correct the spelling of “Barkley” and “Kawhi”. I didn’t think “a Charles Barkley in shape” and “Charles Barkley’s shape” really changed the context, but okay.

I agreed with you on player comparisons...

@broodwars
Not from what I read. Derek Fisher asked for his release so he could relocate to a team/city closer to specialists for his daughter (”Fisher said he wants to live in one of the six or seven cities being considered for Tatum's care.”). What kind of “gentleman’s agreement” has provisions on a little girl’s cancer treatment? “Go get your daughter the care she needs, but you can’t play for the Lakers.” I don’t know Fisher (though he’s done some weird **** in the last few years), but if he felt Los Angeles offered the best care, I’m not about to call him out on it. The Knicks were also $40 million over the salary cap in 2007 and had two point guards on the roster. Were they even an option for Fisher? The Nets had four point guards that year. The Clippers were still owned by infamous racist and cheapskate, Donald Sterling. With all that in mind, one would have to believe Fisher used his daughter’s illness to receive his release which ultimately cost him $24 million to play for a statistically worse basketball team. And he waited 10 days after the July moratorium to sign. If you want to believe that, go for it. I suppose that’s possible. I’m not treading those waters though.

[BeautifulShy]

Also yes I was using some talking heads thoughts and Adrock has it right in how I was describing THT.  I was more thinking along the lines of shape and not skill set. I had the highlights and the scouting report to add more context to how he plays.

[BeautifulShy]

While I was asleep it looks like the Lakers have picked up a few players for the California Classic, Summer League and a two way contract.

Zach Norvell from Gonzaga on a two way contract, Devontea Cacok from UNC Wilmington to a Exhibit Ten deal for the summer league, Alec Holman from Mississippi State to summer league.  A lot of these players are really good at the 3 but needs work in other areas so I am pretty happy with the Lakers going for shooting in the draft/ undrafted players.

[ejamer]

Are the Kawhi free agency tides turning? Multiple reports in the media recently about how Toronto now seems like the most likely place for him to play next year, based on sources like "NBA executives" and comments from Danny Green. Important to note that Kawhi and his friends/family have (as far as I know) been very quiet and not tipped their hand - so it's still all external speculation.

I feel like the end result is still a coin flip though. Clippers are a very appealing option for lots of reasons; Toronto is a known quantity regarding the organization and opportunities. It's just interesting to see how the narrative has slowly been changing.

Interesting sidenote: No previous Finals MVP has left his team in the following season; if Kawhi goes elsewhere, it would be the first time for that to happen.

Interesting sidenote #2: Apparently Kawhi was seen buying boxes from Home Depot. Uh-oh...

[BlackNMild2k1]

In other news, Durant and Kyrie have had 2 meeting regarding their potential futures together.

Durant is apparently pissed at the Warriors organization following his Achilles injury.
No one knows the full story behind it... and I've only read snippets regarding what I'm posting about right now, but I'm really hoping that Durant doesn't leave just yet.

He should recoup on the Dubs dime, with the possibility of coming back for the playoffs, assuming we make it that far.


But it's looking like Durant may leave, and Kawhi may stay.
D-Lo could go back to the Lakers, Kyrie is already moving to New York

oh, and the NBA Awards are tonight.
If you are watching, keep us updated. I'm not sure if I'll be able to catch it.

[broodwars]

In other news, Durant and Kyrie have had 2 meeting regarding their potential futures together.

Durant is apparently pissed at the Warriors organization following his Achilles injury.
No one knows the full story behind it... and I've only read snippets regarding what I'm posting about right now, but I'm really hoping that Durant doesn't leave just yet.

He should recoup on the Dubs dime, with the possibility of coming back for the playoffs, assuming we make it that far.

Kind of reminds me of what happened to Karl Malone his final year when he played on the Lakers and he got badly injured in the playoffs because the Lakers medical staff was (allegedly) incompetent.

[Soren]

He should recoup on the Dubs dime, with the possibility of coming back for the playoffs, assuming we make it that far.

He's not going to play next season.

[BeautifulShy]

Yeah KD is out next season no matter which team he is on.  Klay, might might, make it back for the playoffs. 

As to Leonard I mean I haven't heard one way or another on which team he may go to for sure.  I kinda expect we will know the first day of free agency and not before. Kawhi is mysterious.   It does look however that Kawhi declined his player option. So he could be leaving or reupping with the Raptors for the Super Max.

D'Lo is interesting in that the Suns and Lakers could be options at the point guard spot.  Phoenix already did a lot of their dealing before and during the draft to have all the spots on their team covered except for point guard. Lakers I can see D'Lo coming back now that Magic is gone since he was the one to ship him out and he disparaged him for his maturity after he was traded.

Here is all the free agents connected to the Lakers so far. https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2019/6/24/18683148/nba-free-agency-rumors-lakers-free-agent-kawhi-leonard-kyrie-irving-jimmy-butler-kemba-walker-woj

[Adrock]

Announced Winners

Most Improved Player: Pascal Siakam

Rookie of the Year: Luka Dončić

(Late) Predictions

Most Valuable Player: Giannis Antetokounmpo

Defensive Player of the Year: Giannis Antetokounmpo

Sixth Man of the Year: Giannis Antetokounmpo Lou Williams

Coach of the Year: Mike Budenholzer (really surprised Nick Nurse wasn’t even a finalist)

[Shaymin]

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/official-2019-nba-awards-results/

Sixth man: Lou Williams

Coach of the Year: Mike Budenholzer

Executive of the Year: Jon Horst Lawrence Frank finished ahead of Masai Ujiri, which I know these are regular season awards but WHAT

Defensive Player of the Year; Rudy Gobert

MVP: Giannis