Topic: NWR Game Club #2: Metroid: Other M

[JRokujuushi]

The quotes I listed above directly reference events in Other M.

The real Adam would have said the same thing about that incident, but he would have softened the blow. He was relentless in his criticism, but he always cared...

The word he so obviously chose, "outsider," pierced my heart.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@LuigiDude

Yea, what you said is much more in line with the impression I was under.  Thanks for sharing it.

[Lithium]

Even the "sexualization" is present from the very first game when you can see her in a bikini!

It's even more revealing than the Zero Suit, but as I've been saying in many regards to the game, it was the technology that changes people's views.  If you rendered Samus' bikini version from the NES original in gorgeous modern CGI? Yea.... stop the presses! Nintendo porn!

Another thing to consider is the Bikini Samus was only revealed at the very end of the game, and for a very short period of time. The form fitting Zero suit on the other hand reveals every nook and cranny, and is shown for a longer length of time during the cutscenes, and even during gameplay in some cases.

Its also a bit debatable that the Bikini is more revealing, because the Bikini isn't spandex and doesn't mold itself to her like a second skin the way the Zero suit does. Granted, the bikini does cover less skin, though.

what the what


when did i say that?

[Adrock]

it doesn't constitute a full plot hole.

How can you have part of a plot hole? It's either one or it isn't. As it stands, without an explanation, it makes no sense. Your making excuses for what is ultimately just bad writing. For a story that force feeds every plot point ad nauseum, I find it extremely suspect that Sakamoto chooses this one instance to leave it up to interpretation.

During the times she talks to Adam and he tells her about a weapon, how is she suppose to know it was the same thing she fought in Other M since she doesn't actually see the creature in Fusion until she finally fights it.

How is she suppose to... He calls it "Nightmare." Then, he describes what it is, what it does, and why it's so dangerous.











So you mean to tell me that Ship-Adam tells Samus all of that and her reaction would be, "Wha- Well, that could be anything!" Other M creates a plot hole because these events are inconsistent and Fusion now blatantly disregards that Samus already knows what the Nightmare is based on Other M's place chronologically. Sakamoto goes out of his way to include this enemy in an attempt to tie the games together but he pushes them further apart.

[Luigi Dude]

So you mean to tell me that Ship-Adam tells Samus all of that and her reaction would be, "Wha- Well, that could be anything!" Other M creates a plot hole because these events are inconsistent and Fusion now blatantly disregards that Samus already knows what the Nightmare is based on Other M's place chronologically. Sakamoto goes out of his way to include this enemy in an attempt to tie the games together but he pushes them further apart.

Samus is never told of Nightmare's name in Other M though.  In Other M, Nightmare is just some creature Samus fights and is never talked to about it.  When Adam describes it in Fusion, the only part of his discription that's similar to the creature she fought in Other M is the ability to manipulate gravity but how is Samus suppose to know it's the exact same creature she fought in Other M?  For all she knew, they could have created a new type of gravity manipulating monster that was completely different from the one she fought in Other M.

Considering Nightmare was a top secret weapon for the Federation, only high ranking officals like Adam actually knew it's name.  Since Adam never tells Samus the name of the creature in Other M, it's literally impossible for her to know what Nightmare is until the exact moment she fights it in Fusion.  So once again, this part of Other M isn't a plot hole because it is pretty easily explainable.

[Podings]

I will go and play it again, but before doing so I must re-confess that NEVER have I felt this betrayed by a Nintendo product and the gaming press/gaming fans.
  Other M has its production value in all the wrong places, being visually uninspired and extremely poorly laid out level-wise, with messy boss fights and a broken, basically non-existent hint/scan/info-system.


I can stomach the ridiculously forced story, but knowing that so much money was spent on CGI and voice work, when the game itself had so many gaping holes is hard on the old innards.




I'll report back after giving it another spin.

[broodwars]

Personally, any Nightmare "plot holes" with Fusion are so far from the worst issues with that game's story that I don't really consider them worth caring about by comparison.  At least there's precedence for stuff like that, considering just how often Ridley seems to get revived (as well as Kraid for Super Metroid).

[Chozo Ghost]

The reviving of Ridley can be explained through the art of cloning and the obsession of the space pirates to keep bringing him back.

[Mop it up]

So if we go from a game everyone likes to a game everyone is divided on, will next time's game be one that everyone hates? If so, go with Carmageddon 64.

Never played beyond an hour for any Metroid game. Would this be a bad starting point?

It may actually be a good starting point since you don't have an idealized vision of what Metroid should be, but just remember that other Metroid games are not like this (except maybe Metroid Fusion).

[Adrock]

...how is Samus suppose to know it's the exact same creature she fought in Other M?  For all she knew, they could have created a new type of gravity manipulating monster that was completely different from the one she fought in Other M.

Really? You think Samus would just chalk it up to there being a different random gravity manipulating monster wreaking havoc on a similar vessel and draw absolutely no comparisons to the one that tried to kill her on the very day her mentor, friend, and father figure sacrificed himself due to Galactic Federation negligence. All of that despite her nostalgic elevator asides about Adam. Then, after destroying Nightmare a second time, she wouldn't mention it at all or question the motives of the people who sent her on this mission who may also potentially be behind the massive cloning conspiracy that she uncovered the last time she took down Nightmare. That's what happened? Okay...

Considering Nightmare was a top secret weapon for the Federation, only high ranking officals like Adam actually knew it's name.  Since Adam never tells Samus the name of the creature in Other M, it's literally impossible for her to know what Nightmare is until the exact moment she fights it in Fusion.  So once again, this part of Other M isn't a plot hole because it is pretty easily explainable.

So, she doesn't know the name of it and so no comparisons a drawn? At all? None? Then, after killing it again, nothing still? That's a pretty shoddy explanation for what simply amounts to poor writing. Sakamoto could have avoided this by just not putting the creature in there. Problem solved. What you're doing is trying to make sense of what the game doesn't or does badly. You're trying to fill in the holes in a game that demanded that players do no such thing because it didn't trust them enough to draw simple comparisons to babies and bottles and motherhood without shoving it down their throats. In a story so blatant about everything, there is no room for interpretation. Sakamoto's writing in Other M is negligent and flat-out awful at times. These instances of poor writing completely changes how one views Samus and the events of Fusion. If we are to take Other M as is, as the prequel to Fusion rather than in place of it, Samus is, at best, suffering from amnesia or, at worst, an idiot.

[Chocobo_Rider]

I think a lot of these debates involve things people have just plain already made their minds up about.

If anyone feels like indulging me, I think an interesting exercise might be finding out how this board feels about the game in more broad terms.

Post below if your impression of the game is overall "good," "bad," or "split."  If this yields any interesting results I can propose some more detailed polls.  But this is a good starting point.

[Chozo Ghost]

So if we go from a game everyone likes to a game everyone is divided on, will next time's game be one that everyone hates? If so, go with Carmageddon 64.

I have a better idea: How about Superman 64?

[Mop it up]

So if we go from a game everyone likes to a game everyone is divided on, will next time's game be one that everyone hates? If so, go with Carmageddon 64.

I have a better idea: How about Superman 64?

But Carmageddon 64 is worse, if you can believe that. Gotta make sure everyone hates it.

[Nbz]

I gave up on this game after the fire area and never really went back to it. BUT now with the site running this feature, I'm definitely gonna have to go back and finish this Mother (c whut I did thar)

[Halbred]

Look, we're all assuming that Other M takes place between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. What I'm suggesting is that Other M retcons Fusion out of the continuity entirely. According to Other M, Fusion never happened. It also conveniently allows Sakamoto to avoid dealing with the aftermath of Fusion (Samus is part Metroid now) by creating a new canon.

[Adrock]

I thought Nintendo already acknowledged that Other M does take place between Metroid 3 and 4. However, I definitely understand what you're saying. I don't think they can co-exist in the same series (at least not without some major finagling) and if anything, I really wish Other M is tossed out as a one-off experiment.

Since finishing Fusion, I've been curious where Nintendo was going to take the fusion aspect since, as you said, she is part Metroid though I'm not really a fan of the Fusion suit. It's second only to the yo-yo shoulder Dark Suit in Samus' ugliest alt suits. The whole fusion thing seemed like a cool way to move the story forward. Instead of avoiding it, Nintendo should have not only confronted it but drove into it full bore. It was something that practically forced Nintendo to at least consider rethinking how the series works with Fusion as the intermediary.

[Luigi Dude]

Look, we're all assuming that Other M takes place between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. What I'm suggesting is that Other M retcons Fusion out of the continuity entirely. According to Other M, Fusion never happened. It also conveniently allows Sakamoto to avoid dealing with the aftermath of Fusion (Samus is part Metroid now) by creating a new canon.

But there's nothing in Other M that makes Fusion unable to happen.  Plus Sakamoto himself even says this game takes place between Super Metroid and Fusion which means that's were it takes place.


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2010/09/qa-metroid-other-m-director-yoshio-sakamoto/1#.T6CWPe2sSS0

Q: Talk about why you decided to return to Samus' story after the events of Super Metroid.

Sakamoto: Metroid: Other M is an episode which fills in the blanks of the overall Metroid storyline between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. We couldn't just leave this part of the storyline untouched. It's so critical that without addressing it, we wouldn't be able to make new games that show Samus' adventures that take place after the events of Metroid Fusion.

Q: Does this game bring Samus' story to an end or leave room for future adventures?

Sakamoto: Since chronologically, Metroid: Other M is followed by Metroid Fusion, it is certainly not the end for Samus. However, it was important for us to address the storyline of Metroid: Other M before looking at events that happen later in her life.

[TJ Spyke]

Sakamoto also likes to pretend the Prime games aren't canon, so I honestly couldn't care less what he thinks about the canon of the franchise.

[Luigi Dude]

Sakamoto also likes to pretend the Prime games aren't canon, so I honestly couldn't care less what he thinks about the canon of the franchise.

Oh not this stupid bullsh!t again.  He's never said the Prime games weren't canon, just that the Prime games are a different story arc then his games.  It's no different then how comic books have different artist do different storylines all the time but they're still part of the same overall series.



Hell, it's no different then how the Mario platformers don't use characters and locations from the different Mario RPG games even though the RPG's have created a lot of new characters and locations.  The teams that do the games prefer to do their own things their own way, it doesn't mean one team hates the other.  Just because Sakamoto prefers to do his own thing with the Metroids he creates doesn't mean he hates what the other team does.


Seriously, it's like some of you Sakamoto haters are just looking to make things up to hate about him.  I bet if he actually did use elements from the Prime games and even mention the Prime games in Other M's story you would then be complaining that he's ruining the Prime series now.

[Chocobo_Rider]

What I'm suggesting is that Other M retcons Fusion out of the continuity entirely.

100% False.

But there's nothing in Other M that makes Fusion unable to happen.  Plus Sakamoto himself even says this game takes place between Super Metroid and Fusion which means that's were it takes place.

100% True.

Sakamoto also likes to pretend the Prime games aren't canon, so I honestly couldn't care less what he thinks about the canon of the franchise.

100% False.  He even took a loose supervisory role in the creative direction of Prime 1+2.

Plus, if you don't care what the god damn primary creative director thinks then your roll in this conversation is unnecessary.  Sorry, friend =\

~~~

This is why I offered to boil things down into simple likes and dislikes... some of you folks have gone off the deep end with your completely baseless conclusions.

[broodwars]

Plus, if you don't care what the god damn primary creative director thinks then your roll in this conversation is unnecessary.  Sorry, friend =\

As I've stated before, the interesting thing about Other M is that each and every one of its flaws both minor and severe (and they are many) are directly attributable to Sakamoto.  Being "primary creative director" does not make him an infallible god (especially in light of how poorly Other M sold to Nintendo's expectations, and in comparison to Retro's works), and in my opinion he needs to turn the franchise over to people who actually know what they're doing and can restore the series to relevancy (like folks at Retro who are willing or perhaps a protege).

Sakamoto chose to make Other M his baby, and now he should pay the consequence for his failure and design choices by stepping aside and only fulfilling a supervisory role like he did with the Prime games.  Considering those are the games that have had greater critical and financial success, I'd argue it's in the best interest of the series that he has as little to do with it as possible.

Amusingly, I'd argue that Nintendo should be prepared to welcome Team Ninja back to the franchise for the next game.  Whatever Other M's problems, Team Ninja did their job well and turned in a very polished and mechanically competent game.  Retro wants to distance itself from this series, so in my opinion Team Ninja's more than welcome to do the heavy lifting under the supervision of a designer other than Sakamoto.

[TJ Spyke]

He even took a loose supervisory role in the creative direction of Prime 1+2.

Thankfully the emphasis is on "loose", because the Prime games probably would have been less awesome if he had more control on them.

[Chozo Ghost]

Seriously, it's like some of you Sakamoto haters are just looking to make things up to hate about him.

I don't hate him. But I do think his talents would be better used in making more WarioWare games and things like that. That's the sort of games he is good at, and that's what he should do. Story telling is obviously not his strong point, so any sort of game that involves any sort of plot or story whatsoever should be put in the hands of someone who is more talented in that respect.

If you look at a list of the games he has known for being involved in almost all of them are silly little casual mini game things, and then there is Metroid which is completely different from everything else he does and it stands out. On the list of games he does Metroid seems like something that doesn't belong there, and you can't help but wonder why the hell is he involved in this game when its so very different from everything else he is known for? Its like a professional Circus Clown that also does a little brain surgery on the side. It makes no sense.

[Halbred]

I think it's notable that the Prime games sold better than Other M. I attribute this to Metroid possibly doing better in America anyway, the Prime games being critically acclaimed, and Other M being critically panned. And yeah, he had a loose supervisory role in the first two Prime games, but I'm pretty sure Miyamoto had MORE to do with the game's design. He's the one who had Retro change the game from an over-the-shoulder (boulder holder) third-person view to an FPS.

I agree that Team Ninja did a great job on the game's production values. If the whole thing was left up to them, I'd bet money the game would have been better overall.

[Oblivion]

Miyamoto of all people had it changed to a first person camera? Is it known why he did that? I figured he'd want it to be third person.