Author Topic: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180  (Read 15657 times)

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Offline happyastoria

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2010, 04:10:04 PM »
Happyastoria's name led me to finding out that Astoria isn't just the name of the best town in Oregon, but also a neighborhood in Queens.

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Offline vudu

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2010, 07:47:58 PM »
Re:  Soul Bubbles demo

Actually, there was a demo for Soul Bubbles on the Nintendo Channel when the game first came out.  I downloaded it.

Re:  Spirit Tracks

Spoiler alert, dudes!  The game's only 2 months old.  Some of us don't have as much free time to devote to gaming as you guys!
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Offline yoshi1001

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2010, 11:19:47 PM »
NWR is the NPR of video game podcast. I love it. It's very refreshing.

I keep thinking TYP should do a "Support for NPR comes from..." spoof the next time Radio Trivia ends with classical/jazz music. ;)
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2010, 11:43:24 PM »
Re:  Soul Bubbles demo

Actually, there was a demo for Soul Bubbles on the Nintendo Channel when the game first came out.  I downloaded it.

Doesn't do me any good now! And are you in the U.S.? I check the channel every week and would have downloaded that if I'd seen it.

Quote
Spoiler alert, dudes!  The game's only 2 months old.  Some of us don't have as much free time to devote to gaming as you guys!

Sorry about that -- we rarely get into spoiler territory, so when it does happen, we don't always realize it.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2010, 02:42:48 AM »
Johnny: The Soul Bubbles demo was in the American Nintendo Channel, but it was pulled out a week later. Nintendo should really keep the demos around.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2010, 02:47:23 AM »
Pap's voice was awesome.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2010, 02:48:36 AM »
Third party demos expire after a week or two while Nintendo demos stay around forever. I got a Go Go Cosmo Cops demo with the right timing but right now there are three demos for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and a bunch of ancient games.

Offline Yoshidious

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2010, 03:23:30 AM »
Re:  Spirit Tracks

Spoiler alert, dudes!  The game's only 2 months old.  Some of us don't have as much free time to devote to gaming as you guys!

The discussion originally went into extensive, explicit detail of the finale to Spirit Tracks, but I removed as much of that as I could while preserving James' sentiments about the game. I'm sorry you feel you've had Spirit Tracks' ending spoiled for you to some extent, but believe me there is a lot about it that went unsaid in the final edit of the podcast. Also, given how much time I spend every weekend editing out things like that, I somewhat doubt I have much more free time than you do to play video games!
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Offline noname2200

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2010, 12:06:06 PM »
Good point. There is certainly a meeting point between art and practicality. Samurai armor is very much a good example of this. I think it's "art" when it ceases being used for whatever practical purpose it was originally meant for BECAUSE OF the artistic influence. How's that sound?

That's better!  ;D
 
I still don't agree completely, but then I'm pretty sure I'm going to go to my grave without ever getting a perfect definition for the term. For now though, I'm stealing yours.  ;)

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2010, 02:23:29 PM »
I just listened to 180 and want to note that the lop-sidedness of the art discussion was not intentional. James accidentally muted himself during most of that discussion, and none of us (including him) realized that until we were quite deep into it. So when we finally got wise to the problem, he came in towards the end to give his side and finish the segment. Rather than try to splice his comments throughout the discussion, we thought it would be simpler and more honest to preserve the original flow. Frankly, I do feel that James was a bit short-changed on how much time he got to lay out his arguments, but the conversation was already so incredibly long that I had to end it soon after.

As for whether we'll reopen the debate, that probably won't happen anytime soon, as it seems we are quite set in our ways and are unlikely to find any middle ground or approach the topic from a new angle. However, we have received some very intelligent (and lengthy) emails and posts about the question, and I will try to fit some of those into an upcoming show. Just be aware that we will likely read these without comment in order to avoid repeating ourselves or arguing in circles.
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2010, 05:48:02 AM »
Pretty deep stuff for a podcast, but I'm glad you know when to move on to other topics.

I think you should've mentioned Legendo's Pearl Harbor game somewhere in the discussion of Wiiware's file size limits; breaking it up into 3 parts is an interesting risk, especially since they still don't know how much they're going to charge or when it's going to be released.
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Offline NWR_Neal

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2010, 09:58:08 AM »
I enjoyed the part where Jonny and James argued the semantics of the word semantics.
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2010, 10:30:01 AM »
I think every discussion of the meaning of art is essentially an argument over semantics. 
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2010, 01:05:11 PM »
Any sufficiently long discussion turns into semantics.

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2010, 11:11:15 AM »
as an artist myself, I've come to my own definition over the years. It is a modified form of Scott McCloud's excellent, though overbroad, definition in his seminal "Understanding Comics." To him, art is anything that requires creative thought. At first, this sounds like an odd definition--he essentially states that art is anything that is NOT related to reproduction or survival.
 
As a naturalist, I wholly disagree that the three categories can be segregated from each-other. Creative thought is often but into trying to reproduce, or to make money for one's survival.
 
No, I rather prefer to think that "art" is anything that requires creative thought beyond practical means.
...
 
So, under this definition, all video games are art by their very existance. Creative thought went into even the worst games. They are, in themselves, entirely IMpractical. The same goes for literature, film, and television. Quality does not equal art. It is the process of creating something inherently creative--not practical--that warrants the term "art."

I quite like this definition of "art" as a starting point but I do have one fundamental qualifier: I think the purpose of art is indeed very practical. Maybe we (like Johnny and James) will be arguing over semantics and/or the definition of "practical". But what I mean is, I think some of the purposes of art are to illuminate or reflect the human condition and to provoke a feeling of "elevation". When I use the term "elevation," I am here pilfering the concept of "elevation" from Roger Ebert. He wrote of "elevation in his blog here:http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/01/i_feel_good_i_knew_that_i_woul.html
 
The irony of stealing an idea from Ebert is not lost on me for it is he who has flamed the fires of the videogames-as-art debate by stating unequivocally and on many occasions that he does not think videogames are art. On that point, he is, in my opinion, simply dead wrong.
 
Ebert, and others, describe "elevation" as the sensation one gets when we see good people doing good things or things that are "right" (morally speaking, I suppose). These moments can be profoundly sad, but they move us in a specific way. I think this definition of "elevation" is a bit narrower than what I think of as "art." Rather art, to me, speaks to me about what it is to be human and alive. This, to me, includes moments of "elevation" but also moments that remind us of the darkness of humankind. Is it not true, for example, that humans are the only of Earth's creatures that murder, rape, commit crimes of passion and are deliberately cruel? Communicating those aspects of "humanity" is important in art as well. When I experience moments of "art" that reflect or illuminate humanity, I get that tingly feeling that Ebert talks about in his article of "elevation." That's why I've cited it here. I can also get that tingly feeling simply from artistic works that are praised primarily for their beauty and not much else. I am moved by the beauty alone. I think that feeling is specifically human, too.
 
But back to "practicality". All I am saying is that I think it is eminently practical, necessary even, for humans to seek to illuminate, elevate, touch, whatever, through "art." We all know videogames can and regularly do this. Videogames are art. Its a no-brainer. Maybe not all videogames are "art" but certainly many qualify.
 
 
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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2010, 01:13:20 PM »
One could also suggest that "art" encourages discussion as to its significance or meaning. It's pretty obvious what a hammer is for, but those cave paintings could mean a lot of different things.
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Offline noname2200

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2010, 03:01:05 PM »
I just listened to 180 and want to note that the lop-sidedness of the art discussion was not intentional. James accidentally muted himself during most of that discussion, and none of us (including him) realized that until we were quite deep into it. So when we finally got wise to the problem, he came in towards the end to give his side and finish the segment. Rather than try to splice his comments throughout the discussion, we thought it would be simpler and more honest to preserve the original flow. Frankly, I do feel that James was a bit short-changed on how much time he got to lay out his arguments, but the conversation was already so incredibly long that I had to end it soon after.

Poor James: it must have been frustrating to keep saying something, only to be completely ignored.  ;D

Offline adadad

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2010, 01:18:10 AM »
I quite like this definition of "art" as a starting point but I do have one fundamental qualifier: I think the purpose of art is indeed very practical. Maybe we (like Johnny and James) will be arguing over semantics and/or the definition of "practical". But what I mean is, I think some of the purposes of art are to illuminate or reflect the human condition and to provoke a feeling of "elevation". When I use the term "elevation," I am here pilfering the concept of "elevation" from Roger Ebert. He wrote of "elevation in his blog here:http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/01/i_feel_good_i_knew_that_i_woul.html
 
The irony of stealing an idea from Ebert is not lost on me for it is he who has flamed the fires of the videogames-as-art debate by stating unequivocally and on many occasions that he does not think videogames are art. On that point, he is, in my opinion, simply dead wrong.
 
Ebert, and others, describe "elevation" as the sensation one gets when we see good people doing good things or things that are "right" (morally speaking, I suppose). These moments can be profoundly sad, but they move us in a specific way. I think this definition of "elevation" is a bit narrower than what I think of as "art." Rather art, to me, speaks to me about what it is to be human and alive. This, to me, includes moments of "elevation" but also moments that remind us of the darkness of humankind. Is it not true, for example, that humans are the only of Earth's creatures that murder, rape, commit crimes of passion and are deliberately cruel? Communicating those aspects of "humanity" is important in art as well. When I experience moments of "art" that reflect or illuminate humanity, I get that tingly feeling that Ebert talks about in his article of "elevation." That's why I've cited it here. I can also get that tingly feeling simply from artistic works that are praised primarily for their beauty and not much else. I am moved by the beauty alone. I think that feeling is specifically human, too.
 
But back to "practicality". All I am saying is that I think it is eminently practical, necessary even, for humans to seek to illuminate, elevate, touch, whatever, through "art." We all know videogames can and regularly do this. Videogames are art. Its a no-brainer. Maybe not all videogames are "art" but certainly many qualify.

This is quite an Aristotelian way to go about defining art and its purpose, and while I cannot speak with any great deal of certainty on the topic, I would argue that while I can get behind a substantial portion of this definition, there needs to be a distinction drawn between art, and what games typically offer. In other words, if games are not currently considered to be art by a substantial number of people who also happen to see cinema and literature as being art, then the question is less one of semantics. Instead it is a question of what qualities games lack - if any - that would factor into this choice. I don't care to get into Ebert's past comments on the topic of games as art (because it's been done to death, because he's only one voice in a sea, and other factors involving some tiredness on my part), but one of the primary troubles games give critics, in my opinion, is the game's interactivity. Typically art is composed of some form of narrative, to be digested in a linear fashion in the case of a film or a book (by which I mean the story has a set, linear order to be observed from beginning to end, even if the actual narrative takes place out of chronological order). In the case of a painting or similar work of art, critics often attempt to describe and evaluate the way the viewer's eye is drawn, as if it the piece were, to an extent, linear. Obviously this is a problematic approach and games offer even more difficulties in this vein, especially when looking at non-linear games with open environments, when it is not easily predictable what any given player will do. One way of getting across a linear in a non-linear experience that is frequently used is the cutscene. It is my opinion that the cutscene gives critics like Roger Ebert an easy reason to look at games derisively, since a cutscene can be said to acknowledge the inferiority of games by deferring to cinema. An example from cinema is the voiceover, a frequent component of films, even today. Why would I want to go to the cinema, a visual medium, in order to hear a talking book telling me the story? Likewise we saw in the 50s the French Auteurs setting out to move cinema out of its subservient role to literature, by downplaying the role of the screenwriter in favour of the director. In recent years we've seen some games edging away from the cutscene model, a veritable "feature" of the original Half-Life, but ultimately, while admirable, most of the time the game will constrict the player enough to the extent it provides non-interactive cutscenes in which you can do aught but jump around while the dialogue plays out whilst having no effect on the events taking place.

Now, obviously, games have the potential to present a good story to the extent that it should, at the very least, achieve the famous "Oscar-worthy writing" promised by GTA4. I haven't watched any cutscenes from the game (nor played it in fact!) so I couldn't see how ably it managed to reach, or miss, its target. Regardless, if cutscences and dialogue are all games have to offer and the Oscar aim is shared by the remainder of the industry then the medium should be declared dead in the water in my opinion. Ultimately games have to offer more than art-worthy cinematics in order to justify their continued existence. To draw on a game I haven't personally experienced, both Jon on RFN and Garnett Lee spoke highly of the vaguely interactive cutscenes in Metal Gear Solid 4. I particularly liked the sound of one part of the game which involved button mashing to make the elderly Snake crawl - and there we have a primitive example conforming to Aristotle's generalised aspirations for art. I won't go into it too much, however Aristotle is a hell of a lot of easier to read than Hegel, and probably more influential, so I might as well mention it quickly (quoting from the Aristotle's 'Poetics' by the way). Aristotle says that the task of the poet when writing Greek tragedy, is to depict 'the kind of events which could occur, and are possible'. By depicting conceivably real characters and plausible actions, we are able to emphathise with characters and their situations, and as such are primed to experience the sort of emotion Ebert wrote about in his blog, the so-called Elevation. Now I can only speculate on the effectiveness of the MGS scene on the player, having not experienced it beyond YouTube, however as melodramatic as it looked to me, it does seem to be, at least to my eyes, a representation 'which is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude [...], in the mode of dramatic enactment, not narrative', and works with the goal of arousing emotions in a similar vein to those 'of pity and fear'. Whether MGS4 accomplished the end goal of a great artistic endeavour is all matter of taste, which I would argue in large part is potentially marred for the player by some of the game's qualities; melodramatic and over the top drama characterise the MGS series and I'm not a big fan, which goes some way to preventing me (and likeminded players) from becoming overly emotionally invested. The phrase "I don't buy it" sums it up well I think, and it's a phrase that can be meted out to an overwhelming number of films, games and books that lack the spark of empathy that inspires emotions in the viewer, player and reader respectively.

But back to "practicality". All I am saying is that I think it is eminently practical, necessary even, for humans to seek to illuminate, elevate, touch, whatever, through "art." We all know videogames can and regularly do this. Videogames are art. Its a no-brainer. Maybe not all videogames are "art" but certainly many qualify.

When I started writing this message I initially disagreed with this idea of art being practical, however the more I think on it the more noticeable it is that everyone I've ever met or heard of, as far as I know, is partial to some form of fiction, whether it be in games, films, books or plays etc., and this consumption of fiction is of course widespread and unquestioned. It strikes me as strange that we as humans should be unquestionably drawn to lies. When we're extremely young we learn moral and practical lessons through stories, and narrative provides a basis for understanding the world around us. Yet when we grow up, the narratives continute, only they have grown more complex and large, and for what purpose exactly? I couldn't possibly comment any longer in this message, except to second the possibility that art might somehow be more practical in its purpose and use than is immediately apparent.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:30:53 PM by adadad »

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2010, 04:30:32 PM »
One could also suggest that "art" encourages discussion as to its significance or meaning. It's pretty obvious what a hammer is for, but those cave paintings could mean a lot of different things.

A hammer is for illuminating the human condition, right?  ;D
 
@adadad - good points. Thanks for the thought-provoking, er, thoughts.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2010, 02:31:54 AM »
It's not important to know the definition of a word that nobody can agree on a definition for.
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2010, 03:08:42 PM »
Kind of like "Eutheropoda" or "Titanosauriformes."
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Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2010, 05:26:56 PM »
I'[m not going to weigh in on the Art section, but i did want to make a shout out to Greg.

Normally your editing is great 99% of the time, but in the "break" segment where you're talking about stuff on RFN... everyone just NAILED it. It felt literally like radio and had such a live feel to it. Absolutely perfect.

You raised the bar far too high now ;)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 06:23:05 PM by Plugabugz »

Offline Kairon

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2010, 06:14:34 PM »
This is quite an Aristotelian way to go about defining art and its purpose

When I saw this word, my head exploded.

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2010, 10:16:28 PM »
Ah, what is art, semantics and lots of "my opinion is better then yours of what it is".  My answer, I could care less. Some creations inspire me some don't, the end.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2010, 01:44:49 PM »
Ah, what is goth, semantics and lots of "my opinion is better then yours of what it is".  My answer, I could care less. Some creations inspire me some don't, the end.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!