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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« on: January 24, 2010, 08:40:00 PM »
This episode packs all the usual fun stuff, more Games of the Decade, and the dreaded "art" question. PLUS: A very special announcement!
 http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/podcastArt.cfm?artid=20826

 Episode 180: Your Mom is Art    



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RFN 180 kicks off with the big news that we'll be doing a panel at PAX East, called "Radio Free Nintendo: A Live Podcast for Grown-Ups". If you're planning to attend the show, or at least thinking about it, check out the forum thread! In other, game-playing New Business, Jon Lindemann dusts off his DSi for a report on Dark Void Zero, while Jonny catches up on various Xbox games (and rants about Nintendo's dereliction of DS demos). Greg has praise and criticism for Dead Space: Extraction, and James is still half-way through the tutorial in Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World.    


After a quick break, we've got the next four testimonials in the ongoing Games of the Decade feature. You'll hear from staffers like Pedro and Grant for the first time, and this salvo of games includes beloved epics (Metroid Prime, Majora's Mask) next to influential experiments (Wii Sports, Wii Fit). And there's still more to come! In your Listener Mail, we look back on a year of infinite fridge space (the SD Card Channel), examine how games create emotional impact, and venture into the ultimate no-man's-land of "games as art".    


We're always looking for great Listener Mail to read and discuss on the show, so please send your questions or comments! (We really love seeing your praise and feedback regarding the show itself; however, in the interest of time, we may edit your letter to be read on the podcast.)      Credits:    


This podcast was edited by Greg Leahy.    


Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can purchase their newest album, Done with the Devil, directly from the record label, Amazon.com, or iTunes, or call your local record store and ask for it!    


Additional music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is copyrighted to Nintendo, and is included under fair use protection.  

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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2010, 09:34:57 PM »
Is this a podcast for grownups? Seriously? It's not exactly NPR. I think children of all ages can appreciate a Bearrorist. And Cho Aniki.

Offline NWR_Karl

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 09:38:50 PM »
The fear that no one's going to show is indeed present on my end, as well. My older brother's going to be at PAX, and even he's on the fence about this thing.

I'm only half kidding. We gotta get asses in those seats, gentlemen. Maybe the promise of nudity? Or the promise of a lack of nudity? Something with nudity.

Speaking of the show, any Boston natives or people familiar with the city who post here? If so, how's the public transit there? I don't mind getting a hotel room a little further off (and saving a bit of cash) if commuting a few miles is easy. The Hilton's got rooms available really close, but it's also a bit pricey.

EDIT: Also, ShyGuy reminded me with his NPR comment of another fear. That we'll all be so out of our element doing this live that it'll turn into an episode of The Delicious Dish. We won't have the dynamic sex appeal of Ana Gasteyer to save us if that happens.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 09:41:05 PM by KarlCastaneda »
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Offline Shaymin

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2010, 09:58:25 PM »
I'm 19 minutes in, and I'm already jealous of a host (in this case, Johnny with the CCPro).
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2010, 10:01:51 PM »
I have a sneaking suspicion that John will replay Cho Aniki just before the PAX show, just so he'll have an excuse to talk about it in that show's New Business segment.   :P:

Listening to the podcast now...
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2010, 10:22:39 PM »
If I lived anywhere near Boston (I don't have a car, even if I did it would be tough as it would be about a 10 hour drive) I would go to PAX East and try to attend the panel. I hope you guys get lots of people attending.
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Offline MegaByte

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2010, 10:33:39 PM »
Is this a podcast for grownups? Seriously? It's not exactly NPR. I think children of all ages can appreciate a Bearrorist. And Cho Aniki.
I take that to mean that it's geared towards experienced gamers and those interested in intricacies of the industry beyond just the games as opposed to the stereotypical Nintendo demographic.  That doesn't mean everyone can't enjoy it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 10:39:18 PM by MegaByte »
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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2010, 10:50:33 PM »
EDIT: Whoops, thanks for the clarification Greg, I definitely should've listened before I preached.

Onto the actual topic at hand then!

Regarding the question of games as art, there are all sorts of arguments going on as to the specifics and definitions of terms which I don't particularly care to delve into, however I would say that beyond technical definitions that seek to categorise what is and isn't art, it is far easier to conclusively debate when there is a salient example in the medium being referred to. By this what I mean is that in the case of literature for example, there is a large canon of "classic" authors who can be quickly and easily referenced in a debate concerning art. I'd be surprised to find much contention over whether Shakespeare's plays or Dickens' novels are art or not, while I am more likely to find wildly diverging opinions when asking the same question concerning a page in a phonebook. As far as I'm concerned, people can quibble all they like over the latter example but it is scarcely relevant when it comes to enjoyment - just because someone believes that Pokemon Mystery Dungeon can be called art does not make it any way shape or form deserving of merit or my attention, art or not. Also, since the games as art concept is contested by some of its biggest fans and most prominent creators, then without further progress in the medium I don't see how this debate can ever be conclusive.

Personally I believe that games have the potential to provide experiences with great artistic merit (some might say that this has already happened - but if it has then it hasn't been widely recognised which makes it considerably more awkward to argue the point). Games certainly have not made good on their vast potential as of yet. Still the medium is extremely young and undeveloped, with constantly changing standards. Just as film critics have spoken about the grammar of their medium, there is a grammar to videogames. This of course is founded on the initial basis of a language - which presumably in the case of a game covers the controls and basic mechanics. It follows then that the grammar of a medium is to do with the actual usage and construction of the language forming a coherent or satisfying product. However the grammar of games is, broadly speaking, rather basic, whilst difficulties concerning basic controls are still regular afflictions in finished products, which arguably serve only to prevent games from adequately delivering a compelling experience of any artistic depth. An example of language and grammar in a videogame is in something like Braid, which overtly plays with aspects of Super Mario's core design. Based on the sheer accessibility and mass appeal of 2D Mario, you might call Mario, and consequently the generalised 2D sidescrolling platformer the first language of many modern games players. Based on the acclaim Braid garnered, it is evidently considered in some respects to be an unusually exemplary game for its unique reappropriation of the basic mechanics of Super Mario into a significantly different context, thus rewriting the conventional grammar of the game, which lacks cohesion and artistic vision (it is well documentated that Mario is the product of technical limitations). Portal is similar too, introducing a unique blend of first person shooter and puzzle conventions and mechanics, introducing a new grammar in doing so.

Finally, I do think a case could be made for games offering especially cohesive game experiences that might at least be vaguely equivalent to aesthetic beauty in their construction - Super Metroid, or Ocarina of Time, or Portal are all examples that spring to my mind. As Zach posited, art is non-practical in its purpose, and whether or not games fall under the mantle of art, clearly games share this particular trait. So the argument is certainly there to be made for games, just whether or not it rings true with a wide audience's definition of art I currently doubt. One other obvious reason it is sufficiently tough to argue in favour of games as art is that when taken on the same terms as other mediums widely recognised as art, most games are comparatively mindless and shallow. This is primarily in reference to a game's writing or its story, often the most immediately visible component, if there is an intro for example.

Ugh, why is it that what starts out as a short post always turns into an extended argument. Just my overly long take on things anyway.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 07:36:14 PM by adadad »

Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2010, 10:59:24 PM »
This is the first time I've participated in a NWR podcast, and its surreal. I still hate hearing my own voice but I am proud in that I was able to champion Wii Sports as one of the best of the decade, a game some would ignore because "it isn't an epic graphics heavy title" (as someone mentioned in the last thread).

Regarding Lindy's (?) comment about Wii Sports Resort being the best of the two, I agree. But I have the feeling that in the long run Wii Sports is going to be given more credit than Wii Sports Resort simply because it was the first of its kind, and by the time Wii Sports Resort was released motion control wasn't a novelty anymore. Wii Sports had that advantage because the concept was still abstract and the game was the first to fully show it off and be great at it.
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Offline Yoshidious

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2010, 11:23:02 PM »
adadad, I can confirm that we were responding to a different art-related email (from Oswald in NYC) on this occasion. Hopefully we'll be responding to the cultural perception of gaming points from your letter on a forthcoming episode.
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2010, 01:06:13 AM »
Great episode as always, gents.
 
I don't think James knows what his own definition of "art" is. Having said that, as an artist myself, I've come to my own definition over the years. It is a modified form of Scott McCloud's excellent, though overbroad, definition in his seminal "Understanding Comics." To him, art is anything that requires creative thought. At first, this sounds like an odd definition--he essentially states that art is anything that is NOT related to reproduction or survival.
 
As a naturalist, I wholly disagree that the three categories can be segregated from each-other. Creative thought is often but into trying to reproduce, or to make money for one's survival.
 
No, I rather prefer to think that "art" is anything that requires creative thought beyond practical means. Let's say you make clay pots for a living. Clay pots require some creative thought, some problem-solving, and improvement in design over time. But their purpose is entirely practical. You carry things in pots. However, let's say that you start carving symbols into the pots. Maybe you charge a little more per pot. However, they are still used primarily for carrying things. Well, one day you carve very intricate designs into a clay pot, then put it aside. It is distinctly NOT used for carrying things. Its value is too great--what if the pot breaks? All the work you put into it will be lost. Because of the added effort, that pot has more value, and that value is emotionally determined.
 
So, under this definition, all video games are art by their very existance. Creative thought went into even the worst games. They are, in themselves, entirely IMpractical. The same goes for literature, film, and television. Quality does not equal art. It is the process of creating something inherently creative--not practical--that warrants the term "art."
 
James is advocating a sort of rubrik that can never be realized. Author's (or creator's) intent is NEVER apparant unless you have the creator right there, and you ask what their intent was regarding whatever it is they created. Often, you'll find that creators have multiple intentions or, more rarely, they cannot pinpoint what their intention was. What is great art comes from drug-induced euphoric states, as sometimes happens? The next day, the artist might not even remember making the piece of art, much less what the intention was.
 
Let's look at it another way. I am a paleoartist. In order to achieve was I consider a successful product, I actually try to remove all creative licensing from my pictures. If I can't get ahold of valid, first-tier references for, say, Dimorphodon macronyx, I probably won't restore it. The knowledge has to be there first, and if some crucial aspect of the anatomy is unknown (like the skull of Masiakosaurus), I will not restore it. Is my work "art?" No, not especially. It's informative, and the purpose is to educate. My paleoart may require a creative mind, but the end result is not art. I am drawing practical representations of extinct animals. Were I to stylize my dinosaurs for the hell of it, that would be art. But a Tyrannosaurus rex based on skeletal references and studies of its integument and A&P is not art--it's informative.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2010, 05:27:16 AM »
Art is what you can convince others to buy as such. :P

I'm not sure I'd really call entertainment unproductive, living beings need some kind of entertainment as experiments have shown that being entertained instead of bored has many positive effects on the body (e.g. lab mice showed a higher brain cell regrowth rate when they were entertained).

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2010, 09:12:43 AM »
It's the funny, the older I get the more I appreciate and am shocked at how amazing Majora's Mask really is.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2010, 09:22:49 AM »
Wow, I'd forgotten that Majora's Mask came out in the 2000s, and being my favorite Zelda game and one of the more innovative games Nintendo's done the past 10 years it's a strong candidate for my Nintendo Game of the Decade.  Hmm...going up against Metroid Prime, though, there's strong competition.  Something that didn't get mentioned that's significant about Metroid Prime (and a possible reason to give it the overall honors) is that it was pretty much the first time Nintendo handed off one of their big AAA franchises over to a Western developer, who then reinvented and reinvigorated the franchise (I didn't like Metroid until the Prime series, and even now I don't care too much for 2D Metroid).  Considering how the industry has shifted towards Western development over the last decade, that's pretty significant and influential.

As for James' view on the whole tired "games as art" debate, I think he's full of it.  The idea of something not being art unless the person creating is making it specifically to be art is just pretentious and always comes off as rather fake.  What makes games "art" is the immersive experience (how a game sucks you into the experience and lingers in your head long after you've stopped playing), and it's a completely different approach from any other media.
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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 09:27:36 AM »
NWR is the NPR of video game podcast. I love it. It's very refreshing. I submitted this same question to another podcast, but all I get is bullshit answers. I was very satisfied with the response I got here.  I must confess that I have been listing to you guys for awhile, but I never visited the website until a week ago (Blame iTunes, there should be a link next to the podcast or something) Thanks You and good luck on PAX!

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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2010, 10:43:56 AM »
It's the funny, the older I get the more I appreciate and am shocked at how amazing Majora's Mask really is.

I know!  Such a great game, and I enjoyed recording my segment for this week's show.
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Offline D_Average

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2010, 12:49:10 PM »
Oh man. I'm in Denver. It would be sweet to have a video podcast of the Pax show.
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Offline SouthFork

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2010, 01:59:12 PM »
Art Shmart. If people get so uspest by someone trying to define a word then is that word really relevant anymore. Art, like literature, is a relative term. James you should be commended for trying to pigeon-hole "art." Because no one wants to define art we get people using the bathroom on a canvas and somehow they are able to justify it as art. What a shame.
Let people who write be writers. Let people who paint be painters and let people who make games be game developers. Why do people have to be artists? It's when people call themselves artist that true pretention rises its head.
 
Great Show though. Save a seat at PAX for me.

Offline noname2200

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2010, 05:33:55 PM »
I want in on this "art" business!

Let me preface my comments by saying that I truly do not care if someone/anyone decides that games are "art." If the entire world woke up tomorrow and decided that games are/aren't art, I can't see that judgment making an iota of difference.

It seems to me that broadly speaking, an increased (or dare I say it, an expanded) audience gives gaming additional credibility as a medium - not necessarily by attributing games any artistic merit, but simply by contributing to removing some of the stigma surrounding games and the people who play them.

I agree with this assessment. I'm convinced that the only reason that folks like Egbert (sic) are so adamant that games are not "art" is that gaming has done everything in its power to acquire a stigma that repels 90% of the population. Until recently, gaming has desperately wanted to exclude everyone but the adolescent male from their target audience. And the general preferences of that group are almost never embraced as "art."

Take for example summer blockbusters, sci-fi novels, and comic books, the other three areas that are primarily associated with the same group of folks who play video games. Even though these are all old media with countless works, and even though the general public has long since come to embrace movies, books, and illustrated stories, only a small handful of those works are considered "art." How much worse then will it be for video games, which are rarely played by the general public?

Getting more people into gaming is not a sufficient step for having games recognized as "art," but it's definitely a necessary one.



No, I rather prefer to think that "art" is anything that requires creative thought beyond practical means.Let's say you make clay pots for a living. Clay pots require somecreative thought, some problem-solving, and improvement in design overtime. But their purpose is entirely practical. You carry things inpots. However, let's say that you start carving symbols into the pots.Maybe you charge a little more per pot. However, they are still usedprimarily for carrying things.

You laid out a persuasive case...

Quote

Well, one day you carve very intricate designs into a clay pot, thenput it aside. It is distinctly NOT used for carrying things. Its valueis too great--what if the pot breaks? All the work you put into it willbe lost. Because of the added effort, that pot has more value, and thatvalue is emotionally determined.

...until you got to this part. It sounds, quite literally, that yourdefinition of art is "anything on a pedestal." I reject that. I don'tsee why a piece of art has to be so valuable that you wouldn't riskdamaging it. Think of samurai armor, starting with the Heike era.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/arts/design/23samurai.html?_r=1

These things maintained a very practical purpose (saving your life inbattle), and the bearer very much risked damaging it (by wearing itinto battle). And yet I'm hard-pressed to argue that some of thesethings are not, in fact, damned fine art. They're gorgeous andelaborate, needlessly so, but their artistic merit hardly vanishes oncea guy pulled it off the rack and took it into a fight!

Relating this back to the topic, I think games need to have way morethan just some creative process to become "art." If we go aroundclaiming that art is incredibly broad, as three of the hosts apparentlyare, I think we cheapen the few works that may qualify as "art." Afterall, saying that everyone's special is just another way of saying thatno one is.

I'll be the first to say that I'm not willing to separate the "art" from the "not-art," though.  :D


Art is what you can convince others to buy as such. :P:


You're being cheeky, but the more I look into the matter, the more convinced I become that you're actually quite right...

Offline Halbred

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2010, 06:10:46 PM »
Good point. There is certainly a meeting point between art and practicality. Samurai armor is very much a good example of this. I think it's "art" when it ceases being used for whatever practical purpose it was originally meant for BECAUSE OF the artistic influence. How's that sound?
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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2010, 09:38:59 PM »
I want to start by saying thanks for reading my e-mail, That was freakin awsome! I never had that happen before.
     I feel calling anything art or someone an artist is a personal emotion and opinion. If you notice, not one piece of art can be liked by everyone. Yet, no matter if you like a piece or not, you CAN consider it a legit piece of art.  You can call anything in a gallery a piece of ****, but you can admit that one person looked at that piece and did what they saw, weather it was to get it into a gallery for money or it was true passion down to the bone with no other purpose at the time. Art is what anyone makes of it and is up to no one to categorize what art is and isn't. A way someone does business can be an art, or the way one manages time. That person took an actual mental agenda to those subjects to be proficient and therefore mastered it.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 05:47:22 AM »
Well, a relative of mine is studying art and apparently the definition requires reading Hegel. Since I'm sure nobody here wants to suffer through that we won't be producing any definitive answers.

Offline ControlerFleX

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 07:51:47 AM »
Everyone's definition of art seems to vary and it should, BUT the definition of weird and awkward will be apparent for the PAX "podcast". The way the podcast is regularly done is not unlike many other but the friendship and comradery is unique for four dudes that don't physically "hang out" with each other.

I do believe that the shear uncomfortability of the situation will land you all on the backbone of the relationship that is showcased on a weekly basis. With that said, even if there's only five dudes, outside the other five dudes yall already know at PAX, you will find a way to pool your tallents and still deliver something to the live audience but more so, deliver something that us loyal listeners will love for years to come.

Good luck fellas and..OOHRAH!!
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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 10:15:39 AM »
Hmm, I'm finding it kinda weird that many poster here are claiming that the "art" e-mail was theirs. It's not! It belongs to me! lol Oswald Leon from New York. Stop stealing my identity! lol

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Radio Free Nintendo: Episode 180
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2010, 12:29:55 PM »
Happyastoria's name led me to finding out that Astoria isn't just the name of the best town in Oregon, but also a neighborhood in Queens.