Topic: Original Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon Bosses Were Thrown Out By Miyamoto

[Steel Diver]

No tea-tables "officially" upended.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/33766

The original bosses of Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon were thrown out by Shigeru Miyamoto.

Known for his "upending of tea-tables" (making dramatic changes during the development process) Miyamoto canned the original bosses and had Next Level Games create new ones early in development. This was revealed in an interview with the developers of Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon on IGN.

Next Level Games' Brian Davis notes that the studio had only one boss had been completed, but the others had been designed. "What he wanted for that was, he wanted bosses that could only be in Luigi’s Mansion," Davis tells IGN. "If you saw a boss, you’d say, 'That’s a Luigi’s Mansion boss!' I think that was the right choice. It allowed us to be very creative."

Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon is available now on the 3DS. You can read Neal's review here.

[broodwars]

Well, I would have liked to see what the team originally came up with, because the Miyamoto-approved bosses that are actually IN the game are pretty terrible overall (aside from the 1st & last bosses).  First Paper Mario: Sticker Star and now Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon (this gen, anyway. There's always that old chestnut of Dinosaur Planet he ruined by forcing the Star Fox license on the game)...I wonder how many more games Miyamoto is going to likely make worse before he finally retires.

[pokepal148]

Well, I would have liked to see what the team originally came up with, because the Miyamoto-approved bosses that are actually IN the game are pretty terrible overall (aside from the 1st & last bosses).  First Paper Mario: Sticker Star and now Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon (this gen, anyway. There's always that old chestnut of Dinosaur Planet he ruined by forcing the Star Fox license on the game)...I wonder how many more games Miyamoto is going to likely make worse before he finally retires.

for all we know his bosses were an improvement.. you can't assume that he ruined it because we don't know what it is he ruined.

[broodwars]

for all we know his bosses were an improvement.. you can't assume that he ruined it because we don't know what it is he ruined.

We know from past games like Dinosaur Planet (aka Star Fox Adventures) and Paper Mario: Sticker Star that Miyamoto can certainly make games worse with his tea table flipping.  Sure, we don't know for sure that's the case here, but can you think of a game in recent memory that we know was made better by Miyamoto's stated involvement? Because I can't think of one since Geist back in the GameCube generation.  Suffice it to say that if these bosses had Miyamoto's official seal of approval and they still sucked, I'm skeptical that his orders were an improvement.

[StrawHousePig]

Without having played the version from the alternate universe where that didn't happen, NO ONE can answer that. Even speculating it is nothing more than speculation.

[ShyGuy]

This is why people feel the way they do about broodwars...

[negative_zero]

I'm willing to give Miyamoto the benefit of the doubt here, considering that the games Next Level makes with Nintendo are all awesome, and the games Next Level doesn't make with Nintendo all suck.

[broodwars]

This is why people feel the way they do about broodwars...

I'll be sure to let you know the day I give a damn.  It's a valid criticism to question the quality of Miyamoto's involvement in a project when the very things he insisted upon changing were still at best lackluster in the final product and at worst atrocious displays of game design.  Maybe he should focus on his own "retirement"-driven pet projects rather than splitting his attention consulting on other teams' projects.

[red14]

Worst part of living in a redneck county west of Jacksonville FL: the closest gamestop is over 30 miles away, and my only local walmart (and only place to buy any kind of games) still doesn't have Luigi's Mansion. I've been checking.


Even though they've had the same damn Luigi's Mansion sign hanging up in the 3ds section since before it's release.

[azeke]

I'm willing to give Miyamoto the benefit of the doubt here, considering that the games Next Level makes with Nintendo are all awesome, and the games Next Level doesn't make with Nintendo all suck.

This.

Circle of hate is getting wider and wider. Miyamoto and Iwata are already in it.

Who's gonna be next?

Sakurai and his atrocious fashion sense and general annoyingly boyish looks?

Itoi and how he keeps showing middle finger to Mother fans asking for more sequels, the nerve of him.

Takahashi and his generic japanese character designs!

Kondo and how he's still stuck in his primitive piano tunes from 80s!

Sakamo... Oh wait, let's skip this one shall we...

Trinen! Yes, notice how dour he looks all the time?.. Yeah, off with his head!

Shibata and his atrocious english and russian!

My god! This entire company is infested with hacks and morons!

[Jonnyboy117]

Bill Trinen is a saint, and I won't hear anything to the contrary.

[RABicle]

Lay off Broodwars guys. Haven't you even played Virtue's Last Reward? Our actions now can change the past, this is a simple Schrödinger's cat situation. I have already gone back and discovered that Luigi's Mansion Dark Days was way better with King Boo as the final boss, the Michael Jackson cameo was very funny too.

[Ian Sane]

I work as programmer and when a higher-up "up ends the tea table" on me I don't get inspired.  I lose interest and begrudingly bang it out their way.  Next Level Games aren't just cogs in the machine, they're creative people that want to make games.  I have an instinctive resistance to anyone bossing me around in regards to my creative works and I imagine that's a common thing.  Like if you spent time and effort designing something that you thought was really good and had all these personal touches and then the bossman says "scrap it" would you be motivated by that?  My initial gut reaction is "**** YOU" and my work would reflect that.

It always made sense to me why Star Fox Adventures turned out crappy.  And this Luigi thing is just a few bosses, in that case the whole new IP they had created got scrapped entirely because Miyamoto felt the main character resembled Fox McCloud.  Realistically if Rare had decided to use a different animal other than a fox maybe that wouldn't have happened.  What motivation do you have to make a good game when the creative work you have years of your life into has all been pissed on by the bossman?  No matter what it is no longer the game you wanted to make.

A few bosses isn't that big of a deal but if the resulting bosses weren't that good could you say Miyamoto's interference was worthwhile?  I guess the original bosses could have been much worse but if the Miyamoto results were not that great you can't help but be curious about them.  Though the idea of making bosses that would immediately be identifiable as being from the game they're in is a pretty good suggestion for game design.

My beef with Miyamoto is simply that he's become a boring and conservative businessman, when he used to be the young creative developer.  He hasn't been the same since he become less of a developer and more of a supervisor.

[Adrock]

Like if you spent time and effort designing something that you thought was really good and had all these personal touches and then the bossman says "scrap it" would you be motivated by that?  My initial gut reaction is "**** YOU" and my work would reflect that.

Depends on what it is and how they said it. I've written stories where people critiquing it have told me X and Y didn't work or could be better. It made the story better. As long as they aren't a dick about it, I'm open to criticism.

While Miyamoto isn't perfect, I would imagine it's rather difficult not to take his suggestions seriously. It also doesn't seem like Miyamoto is just galavanting around upending tea tables everywhere. Rather, it's more "Make it work or get rid of it." So, for example, Retro Studios made the Morph Ball work and that's why it's in the game; that's why Retro Studios was even allowed to make the game.

[Stogi]

Miyamoto as boring and conservative? SUPER, there is a new challenger approaching.

[azeke]

I work as programmer and when a higher-up "up ends the tea table" on me I don't get inspired.

As a programmer myself i know that i am a very poor designer.

Also i know that feedback is a magical thing and even the most dumb criticisms can make your product so much better and you wouldn't even notice it because you're 1) bad designer 2) too entrentched in your work to notice the flaws

I am reasonable enough to accept criticism, i surely hope that fine people at NLG are big men enough to do the same.

And again evidently, NLG games with Nintendo are magical, and without them are kinda bad.

There must be something about this Miyamoto dude... Hmm, maybe this dumb senile idiot isn't such a moron after all, eh?

[Ian Sane]

I work as programmer and when a higher-up "up ends the tea table" on me I don't get inspired.

As a programmer myself i know that i am a very poor designer.

Also i know that feedback is a magical thing and even the most dumb criticisms can make your product so much better and you wouldn't even notice it because you're 1) bad designer 2) too entrentched in your work to notice the flaws

I am reasonable enough to accept criticism, i surely hope that fine people at NLG are big men enough to do the same.

I find there is a subtle difference between construtive criticism and your creative work being effectively hijacked by someone else.  Luigi's Mansion wouldn't be as obvious of a hijack as Star Fox Adventures.  There's a point where your creative work is no longer your creative work and you feel that your input into it is automatically disregarded.  When I feel it's at that point my motivation turns to ****.  "Upending the tea table" sounds like a pretty extreme thing to do (imagine your reaction to someone literally doing that) so I don't associate that with mere constructive criticism.