Topic: Nintendo Needs to Stop Caring About What Other People Think

[NWR_insanolord]

Out of curiosity, can anyone provide details on how much effort Nintendo courting 3rd party developers has actually detracted from them producing their first party titles?

I sincerely don't know, but if it hasn't really impacted their ability to output their own games, what does it hurt for them to seek out 3rd party support for the console?  I know they were mostly ports, but the Wii U's launch would have been a drought if not for the 3rd party support it did receive.  If Rayman Legends for Wii U hadn't been delayed, but still had an announced Xbox 360/PS3 port scheduled for Fall, would it still be considered backstabbing?

And what about Bayonetta 2?  While they certainly may not have great luck courting EA, Activision, or other huge publishers, certainly the smaller devs would be worth seeking.

I'm not advocating outright hostility toward third parties as much as saying they should proceed as if they won't be getting any significant third party support and have to do it all themselves. If they get the support, great, but if not they're still covered by their own stuff.

And as I said earlier in the thread, that would definitely include more things like Bayonetta 2. This is mostly regarding courting the EAs and the Ubisofts of the world; forging partnerships with small developers would have to be a cornerstone of such an approach.

[pokepal148]

Out of curiosity, can anyone provide details on how much effort Nintendo courting 3rd party developers has actually detracted from them producing their first party titles?

I sincerely don't know, but if it hasn't really impacted their ability to output their own games, what does it hurt for them to seek out 3rd party support for the console?  I know they were mostly ports, but the Wii U's launch would have been a drought if not for the 3rd party support it did receive.  If Rayman Legends for Wii U hadn't been delayed, but still had an announced Xbox 360/PS3 port scheduled for Fall, would it still be considered backstabbing?

And what about Bayonetta 2?  While they certainly may not have great luck courting EA, Activision, or other huge publishers, certainly the smaller devs would be worth seeking.

its more visibly hurt their release schedule
whats coming-out this month....
NOTHING

I understand, and I agree that it's ridiculous they aren't releasing the basically completed Wii U version just so they release all versions of Rayman at the same time, but my theoretical specifically suggested that if they didn't delay the Wii U game.

im answering your first question

[Xenocity]

3rd parties have stated these reasons are why they don't support Nintendo consoles:

• Nintendo consoles are made for "casuals", kids, and families instead of "hardcore" gamers
• Nintendo floods their systems with 1st party games, which end up killing 3rd party sales
• Nintendo doesn't finance and market their games
• Nintendo forces "gimmicks" on them
• Nintendo's reputation
• Nintendo insults them by offering and sending developers over to assist in development
• Nintendo mandates if they fund a game to any extent, that game has to be exclusive to Nintendo

What did Microsoft do for 3rd parties on 360?

• Microsoft mandated that 360 had to be the lead platform if 3rd parties wanted to develop for it (some exceptions do exist)
• Microsoft mandated that 360 version had to be at parity with the other versions (no inferior versions allowed on 360)
• Microsoft charged  3rd parties a pretty penny for every extra disc their games used
• Microsoft charges $40k per patch and limits time between patches
• Microsoft takes 40% cut of all digital sales
• Microsoft will pay big for 3rd party support (they spent $50M on GTAIV, they spend over $20M each year on getting the best CoD version, and almost as much to get FFXIII on 360)
• Microsoft mandates you use all the online features of Xbox 360.

What did Nintendo do with Wii U for 3rd parties?

• Nintendo made all patches free with no limits on patching
• Nintendo took the Steam approach to the Wii U eShop
• Nintendo made getting their games approved very easy
• Nintendo takes between 15%-30% cut on all digital sales
• Nintendo licensed numerous engines for 3rd parties to use for free
• Nintendo offered to help get their games running on Wii U
• Nintendo offered to publish certain titles
• Nintendo offered to fund certain titles
• Nintendo offered to help market their titles including in Nintendo Directs and trade shows
• Nintendo agreed to stagger 1st party support to make it easier for 3rd parties to sell their games (This goes for 3DS as well).
• Nintendo gave 3rd parties the launch in exchange for 3rd party support (Same as 3DS)

Nintendo has done a lot for 3DS and Wii U to gain 3rd party support, but sadly 3rd parties are not happy with the demographics for both systems.

[red14]

The delay of Rayman Legends made me decide to get a $99 Xbox 360 for my birthday instead of a $300 Wii U with which I would have no games for.


My birthday's actually the day of Sony's big announcement coming up.

Out of curiosity, any reason you opted for the subsidized Xbox 360 with the Xbox Live plan instead of buying it outright at $300 if you were willing to drop that amount of money on the Wii U anyway?

Well holy fu*k. This is why I hate living in Florida near Jacksonville. I was under the impression that Xbox Live had nothing to do with the $99 360s. The damn commercial said NOTHING about Live. Do not move to Florida if you're looking for a good job, a place to stay, and your common sanity. It just sucks down here for everyone. Sorry if that was kinda blunt =(


Also the Wii U was a long senseless story that I cannot begin to explain.

[Xenocity]

The delay of Rayman Legends made me decide to get a $99 Xbox 360 for my birthday instead of a $300 Wii U with which I would have no games for.


My birthday's actually the day of Sony's big announcement coming up.

Out of curiosity, any reason you opted for the subsidized Xbox 360 with the Xbox Live plan instead of buying it outright at $300 if you were willing to drop that amount of money on the Wii U anyway?

Well holy fu*k. This is why I hate living in Florida near Jacksonville. I was under the impression that Xbox Live had nothing to do with the $99 360s. The damn commercial said NOTHING about Live. Do not move to Florida if you're looking for a good job, a place to stay, and your common sanity. It just sucks down here for everyone. Sorry if that was kinda blunt =(


Also the Wii U was a long senseless story that I cannot begin to explain.

Yeah I hope you didn't sign the contract.

When it it all said and done, that $99 Xbox 360 will have cost you about $450.

[red14]

It was just a decision, no contracts or anything. So, I guess I'll have to come up with something else to get for my birthday. Don't really have any games on my mind...

[pokepal148]

It was just a decision, no contracts or anything. So, I guess I'll have to come up with something else to get for my birthday. Don't really have any games on my mind...

get a ps3 and ps+

[Caliban]

I would love for Nintendo to be able to just keep a steady supply of high quality software and not have to worry about 3rd parties to fill in the gaps.

This.  Although it would make third parties cry (See title of article), Nintendo should release a title every month for each platform - with at least one "AAA" title every quarter for each platform.

What's the tie in ratio for the average console?  It's likely less than ten.  If Nintendo releases 12 games a year over the course of 5 years, with four being "AAA" titles, that would give gamers 60 first-party titles (20 or which would be "AAA").  I can't imagine that wouldn't be enough to keep any casual gamer happy.  And nothing keeps hard-core gamers happy, so no one should worry about keeping them happy.

This would, of course, mean Nintendo would need to get some more first-party and second party studios under their belt.

Frankly, Nintendo has shown with the N64 and the GameCube that they have the ability to support a system on their own.  And that's all they need to worry about.

I would be mighty fine with this.

[smallsharkbigbite]

Frankly, Nintendo has shown with the N64 and the GameCube that they have the ability to support a system on their own.  And that's all they need to worry about.

I would be mighty fine with this.

Yes and no.  I believe Nintendo could make a profit with no third party support, but it wouldn't be close to the piles of cash they were pulling in with the Wii.  So from a business perspective, if they want to maximize value they need to make real concessions to big third parties to get some exciting stuff coming in.  But like most Japanese led companies, they refuse to admit mistakes.  So we likely won't see any changes to their third party approaches for the Wii-U. 

[Caliban]

But like most Japanese/American/European/Aussies i.e. the whole world led companies, they refuse to admit mistakes.

Fixed... and yeah. Your point? That there are a lot of companies that don't admit to their mistakes.

[pokepal148]

i have just realized the irony of who wrote this
god i feel stupid

[Mop it up]

I don't think Nintendo really cares as much as it might seem. Sure, they try some partnerships here and there, but there's one thing they've never given third-parties, which is the one thing they want: hardware. Nintendo hardware is and will always be designed around Nintendo's own needs. They don't offer the power, controller, online infrastructure, etc. that most publishers and developers want, which is the main reason they haven't gotten as much support the last three generations, and likely never will again. Nintendo doesn't design their hardware with third-parties in mind, nor should they.

Nintendo may toss out accessories like the Circle Pad Pro for third-parties, but all-in-all I don't see how Nintendo have suffered with the types of partnerships they've tried with third-parties.

[smallsharkbigbite]

Fixed... and yeah. Your point? That there are a lot of companies that don't admit to their mistakes.

The point is very simple.  It's fun to go rah, rah, screw third parties, long live Nintendo since obviously on a Nintendo board we all love Nintendo games.   


But as a business decision it is stupid.  Last I heard, Nintendo charges a licensing fee of about $12 a disc.  So assuming the Wii has a userbase of about 85 million, if they sell 1 third party game to the entire population this year that makes them over $1 billion dollars.  You want to go tell your boss to ignore a possible billion dollars a year because your tired of being a bridesmaid? 


It seems to me the better method is to figure out a way to make the Wii U more enticing so that the billion dollars grows. 

[NWR_insanolord]

Any way to do that would involve cutting into that profit margin. You're devoting resources toward that by either cutting costs for third parties or outright paying them for support.

[Adrock]

Really? Still bitching about the name of the system? There is nothing wrong the name "Wii U".

I want to agree with you, but my friend who manages a Play N Trade still has to explain to people that Wii U/GamePad isn't for Wii; it's a whole new console with a completely different controller that can't be used with Wii. That only accounts for the people who come into his store. Think of all the people who still don't know what it is because it's not super-obvious. I mean, anyone who is still miffed that it sounds lame need to get over it. There's nothing wrong with the name... except that it's unnecessarily confusing people who are too stupid and/or lazy to google it (as funny as Let Me Google That For You is, it's pathetic that it even exists). Like I said months ago, it should taper off 6 months to a year into the console's life. However, it's unfortunate that this is even an issue because it's just 1 more thing on top of everything else.

Nintendo hardware is and will always be designed around Nintendo's own needs. They don't offer the power, controller, online infrastructure, etc. that most publishers and developers want, which is the main reason they haven't gotten as much support the last three generations, and likely never will again.

I think you can cross off the controller as the GamePad is exactly what they want with a screen on it and the Pro Controller is pretty fantastic. The Pro Controller is the best controller I've ever used. It mops the floor with both competing controllers (besides the inexplicable lack of a headphone jack). The online infrastructure is getting there, but it is missing universal chat which quite frankly is inexcusable in 2013. I agree with you there though I think Nintendo can patch it. Kind of pathetic that they didn't think to make it a priority to have that at launch though.

Nintendo doesn't design their hardware with third-parties in mind, nor should they.

Honestly, neither has Sony and that didn't stop the PS3 (which is notoriously unfriendly) from getting solid support.

[smallsharkbigbite]

Any way to do that would involve cutting into that profit margin. You're devoting resources toward that by either cutting costs for third parties or outright paying them for support.

If third parties aren't bring you the games, you have no profit margin to worry about. 


I'm not saying everyone should get a deal, but that they should make sure that some high profile games come to the Wii U or have exclusive content.  [size=78%]Case in point.  GTA V is almost certainly not coming to the Wii U and will likely sell at least 10 million units.  10 million x $12 is $120 million in potential royalties just for that game.  [/size]


Now, yes, the Wii U doesn't have the user base to absorb all those sales.  But who knows how many people would buy a Wii U if the Wii U had "the best" version of GTA V because of gamepad implementation.  Then we could get into a whole new scenario.  What if 1 million people buy a Wii U because they need the best version of GTA V.  Then that's another $300 x 1 million = $300 million.  Now that's revenue, not profit, but those are new people who will buy other Wii U games including Nintendo published games.  The Gamecube sold about 18 million systems.  That's about how many people would buy a console just for Nintendo games.

[pokepal148]

2010 had the best third party support if i recall correctly
and Galaxy 2
i see something wrong with that picture

[Adrock]

Nintendo should troll all US football gamers and pay the NFL whatever amount of money they want to secure exclusive rights to the license and players association for the 5 years once EA's deal expires then release their own football game. Would all the Madden fans buy a Wii U just for a football sim? Possibly. This will never happen, but if it did, it would be worth it just as big a "**** you" to EA.

[Mop it up]

I think you can cross off the controller as the GamePad is exactly what they want with a screen on it and the Pro Controller is pretty fantastic.

I considered that, but regardless of how accurate it is I think third-parties really do feel that they have to use the GamePad's extra features for something or people will view the games as lacking. I mean, I do recall a lot of reviews for Wii and DS games that complained about them not using the system's features. As for the Pro Controller, it doesn't come with the system so it can't really be a primary controller for a game unless it's bundled (like how Monster Hunter Tri came bundled with the Classic Controller Pro).

As for the PS3, I think it was still close enough to the Xbox 360 that it was still easy enough to port to. Certainly a lot easier than the Wii, and nothing had to be sacrificed. Plus it was a lot more popular in Japan than the 360 so it got the Japanese developer's support.

[smallsharkbigbite]

Any way to do that would involve cutting into that profit margin. You're devoting resources toward that by either cutting costs for third parties or outright paying them for support.

I just wanted to clarify.  Businesses only care about net income.  If you have to spend $50 million to make $100 million you do it every time.  And certainly Nintendo has a pile of cash so it's not like their internal development would suffer at all. 

[Kytim89]

I am not sure where to put this but if one thing about the Wii U that needs a price cut it is the Pro controller. Nintendo needs to cut that thing down to $29.99 and let more people purchase them. This way more third parties can just port over their games and use only the pro controller.

[Sarail]

Nintendo should troll all US football gamers and pay the NFL whatever amount of money they want to secure exclusive rights to the license and players association for the 5 years once EA's deal expires then release their own football game. Would all the Madden fans buy a Wii U just for a football sim? Possibly. This will never happen, but if it did, it would be worth it just as big a "**** you" to EA.

Oh god, I would LOVE this. Could you imagine all of the poo that would go flying? Internet AND IRL? Oh my.

Do it, Nintendo. DO IT.

[Fjurbanski]

I am not sure where to put this but if one thing about the Wii U that needs a price cut it is the Pro controller. Nintendo needs to cut that thing down to $29.99 and let more people purchase them. This way more third parties can just port over their games and use only the pro controller.

Maybe Nintendo should drop the price on the pro controller, i don't know. But third parties just need to suck it up and use the gamepad. If it's that hard to pop a map/inventory down there, or just support off-screen play, then you're not good at your job.

[broodwars]

Nintendo should troll all US football gamers and pay the NFL whatever amount of money they want to secure exclusive rights to the license and players association for the 5 years once EA's deal expires then release their own football game. Would all the Madden fans buy a Wii U just for a football sim? Possibly. This will never happen, but if it did, it would be worth it just as big a "**** you" to EA.

Oh god, I would LOVE this. Could you imagine all of the poo that would go flying? Internet AND IRL? Oh my.

Do it, Nintendo. DO IT.

I, for one, would welcome the opportunity to care even less about Football than I already do. Please, gaming industry: please do all in your power to make that sport less popular in this country so I can stop hearing about it on gaming podcasts.

[slim1980]

i think its funny that alone the nintendo 3ds has sold way more 3ds's in 3 years than sony sold ps3's in 6 years.for all the bad comments that are to come its true look it up yourselfs, lol.nintendo needs to stop thinking bout everyone else.for most the ideas that are out nintendo already did.like in the 80;s the power glove hmmm seems like a wii remote.ooo did i metion that the ps1 was going to be the n64 but nintendo said naaa we dont want disc baesed games  so sony ran with it so it became the playstion.nintendo is the orinater nintendo dont bite lol love the wii u control lol sonys new playstation controler will have a touch screen in the middle of it lol hmmm can wii say wii u controller lol