Topic: Pearing down the Revolution controller

[NW]

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Originally posted by: Truthliesn1seyes

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane<br  I don't like what they're doing with the DS.  There's too much focus on non-gamer stuff and most of their new original ideas are for stuff like Nintendogs and Electroplankton.  It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers.  

See, this is a typical Nintendo fanboy rant.  These past few years, everyone has been drillin Nintendo for not bring Mario Kart and Pokemon online, and to a lesser degree, for Advance Wars, Animal Crossing, and a few other games.  Now Nintendo is coming along and answering our complaints and giving us our fav games online and what do they get?  "It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers."  Its like Nintendo has to be mind readers and be able to see the future to be able to answer all our complaints.  We complained about a lack of online and now we are getting them applied to our fav franchises.  Yet now there are newer complaints.  Nintendo fanboys are like nagging girlfreinds who no matter what you do, you can't ever please.  Its a lose lose situation.

Well, like a nagging girlfriend, they eventually leave you if you ignore them.
"I think we should get a pool. You know, for the kids. I'll even pay for it." "Why don't we try something different instead?! I know! The kids can cool off in THE BATHTUB! THEY CAN INVITE THREE FRIENDS!"

After one idea after another, the girlfriend finally gets sick and dumps you. Who would want to just stand in a bucket of ice with their three friends instead of swimming in a pool? As time passes, with a lot of hesitation you finally get a pool. You try to find that ex-girlfriend in hopes that you can patch the relationship back together. "Hey baby. I've got a swimming pool now! For the kids! And even more, for us!" Then she declines. What, you'd think she'd come back to you after that? It just isn't that simple. She's found someone else who gave her what she wanted. Why should she go back to you? Because you finally gave in after everyone else has done it? You need to convince her as to why she should come back to you. The pool just isn't enough.

That's pretty much the way it is with Nintendo. The other companies offer online gaming. Nintendo on the other hand offers incarnation after incarnation of Pokemon. Finally they offer online gaming and act as if it was never going to be popular before. "Oh, nobody would buy into it." If the Nintendo fans bought into buying a bunch of GBAs to hook up to the GameCube along with the cable links, the GBA cartridges, and the GC game itself, don't you'd think those Nintendo fans would do anything, including online gaming?  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Nintendo has finally gone the way of online, but was it really necessary to have all these buckets of ice before we got the pool? Can you really blame the people who buy a GameCube for complaining when they have to sift through a bunch of sequels to find the gems? Where's that next game that will make me love Nintendo all over again? Super Mario 64 dragged me back into Nintendo's clutches, after a certain blue hedgehog had stole my heart long ago.  Make the games really worth my money and don't avoid the situation! That's what those nagging girlfriends want.

Also, a "typical Nintendo fanboy" wouldn't say something like: "It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers." That's a Nintendo fan who cares. A typical Nintendo fanboy would watch the other kids eat pizza while he has to eat broccoli. Then he'll mutter under his breath: "Yeah well I don't like pizza anyway.

Heh, sorry for getting off topic...but some of us are really sick of seeing one Mario Party after another, and not the next Super Mario Bros/3/World/64 system killer. Then we're given the online gaming, only with the same old franchises that have been milked endlessly... After that, we're told to stop complaining... so basically we're being told what we like.

In a way you can say the problem is with...communication! Whoa. Like an actual relationship! Funny how it comes full circle back to the nagging girlfriend.

[Artimus]

Anyone else find it hilarious that Animal Crossing was grouped with the traditional games, and Nintendogs with the non-games? If that doesn't show the stupidity of the entire argument, nothing does.

[KDR_11k]

Guess what your average Nintendo user would say if Nintendo went online and didn't make online versions of Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Smash Bros and all the other multiplayer games they have? You'd get people complaining that they want Mario Kart. Looked into those "Rev Games you want" threads? All sequels. The thing is, the users want both, sequels to all popular games AND innovative new games. Kinda like how managers want ten new features in the game three weeks before the deadline and casually mention they're going to move the deadline one week closer. It's not possible to keep up with those huge demands. If N threw additional teams at DS online gaming and made tons of new franchises people would complain after the Rev launched where all the games are (answer: On the DS. Because you wanted them there.). Noone expects Sony, Micrsoft or even EA to produce a compelling lineup for three different systems on their own. Nintendo fans complain about a lack of games yet Nintendo is one of the largest publishers in the business. You know why? Because they deliver more games than most big publishers and developers combined. Perhaps that's even the problem. The people who decide to buy a GC do so because they want Nintendo games, those who care about other games probably have other consoles and buy their other games for those. They want Nintendo games because they know Nintendo produces a certain level of quality. And since they push Nintendo so hard to make the entire lineup alone Nintendo has to push so hard that no other company can survive by making games on their system. In other words, by trying to fulfill our expectations Nintendo accidentally kills all the third parties by driving them out of the market. Sure, THQ or EA might make more games total but they tend to rush their games and if you remove the trash I'd guess Nintendo comes out as the comapny making the most games. And people still expect more.

[Spak-Spang]

KDR:  There is alot of truth in that statement.  Add into the equation the limited funds of some gamers and you see the problem.  I can only buy one game this month...I will buy the Nintendo developed game because I know it is of higher quality usually.  

[Ian Sane]

"The thing is, the users want both, sequels to all popular games AND innovative new games."

I think the people asking for sequels and the people asking for new stuff are not always the same people.  Some people ask for sequels to every game they have ever liked in the world.  These are the people who ask for 3D Kid Icarus for no reason other than the fact that they liked Kid Icarus on the NES and 3D is the cool thing to do now.  The people who ask for another Punch-Out also fall in this category.

My attitude is that sequels should only be made if there is a creative reason for the sequel to exist.  These are the sequels that greatly improve on the original formula.  They add new features that make it so that you HAVE to play the sequel or you truly are missing out.  The changes and additions should also feel very natural instead of forced (Super Mario Sunshine's waterpack is a perfect example of a change that feels forced).  Ideally I would like the sequels to be released a fair bit of space apart so that the formula doesn't burn out too quickly.  One game a console seems to be a good schedule to me.

So I want Mario Kart Online because there is a reason for that game to exist.  After they release an online Mario Kart for the Rev I'll probably never buy another Mario Kart again.  I feel the formula is getting stale.  Once a series gets stale I feel they should retire it and work on something else.  I think it's good we haven't had another Punch-Out.  Super Punch-Out nailed it perfectly.  There is no need for a sequel.

As a result I ask for new games to take the place of retired series.  I always want something fresh whether it be an updated take on a formula or a brand new game.

[Spak-Spang]

Ian Sane:  That is all good about retiring games when you keep all the systems and keep all the games, but most people DO NOT do that.  

Now with the revolution you could have a valid argument for that type of thing.  I can play the SNES, N64 and Gamecube Versions of Mario Kart I really don't need the Revolution version.

But guess what...people do really want those new versions.

Some games are so great you just want to play more and more of that game whether they add new stuff or not.  However, a game has to end.  You can't make a great game that is endless.  So what happens is simple, sequels are made to give fans what they want.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Nintendo Revolution when gamers can play the classics.  Will they go back and play the classics which many argue are better versions than the updates.  Or will the updated graphics and controls be enough to where noone looks back at the past?

[vudu]

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I think it's good we haven't had another Punch-Out. Super Punch-Out nailed it perfectly. There is no need for a sequel.

You've never simply wanted more of the same?  After playing SPO dozens of times, I can beat it with my eyes closed (almost).  I don't think asking for a new Punch-Out every ten years is asking too much, do you?

[Truthliesn1seyes]

Ian, you can never labal a game "perfect as is" and thus retire it.  There are always ways to improving games, there is no such thing as the perfect game.  With creativity, you can always breath new life into old franchises.  Nintendo most of the time uses their key franchises to introduce new gameplay becuase they know sometimes original franchises don't get the attention they deserve.  You say you want the next Mario 64 caliber game but you, as a Nintendo fan, know that Nintendo makes 2 types of games.  They make really good, fun polished games, then they make a classic.  Zelda games and Mario's main games fall into that catigory.  The good, fun and polished games come out on a regular basis but the true gems take yrs to release.  Nintendo isn't Sony who releases 3 Ratchet and Clank games as if they are on a conveyer belt, same thing with the Jack game, its up to 3 already.  The developers of those games can afford to pump out so many successive games as apposed to NIntendo with thier Mario 64 line becuase thats that developer's sole purpose.  Nintendo, as KDR mention and I talked bout a few other times, has many platforms to support.  Nintendo has many different type of games they have to create for their fanbase.  Nintendo needs the steady flow of sequals to thier lesser yet fun franchises becuase they need a steady flow of cash.  Nintendo can only dable with original licenses on the DS and every now and then on the Cube becuase doing so is very risky in today's video game market.  Nintendo could possibly create the next best thing with an original license and it could possibly be overlooked by consumers.  

As for the online aspect that everyone's always complaing about, Nintendo was the first to get their feet wet with online gaming back during the NES era.  Nintendo is just now going into online becuase they've finally developed a more cost effitient way that warrents them developing the infastructure needed.  Nintendo is not in the business of losing money.  Online could've helped the Cube but it woud'nt have yielded a profit.  Just look at Xbox live for instance,  its been a success yet not even half the Xbox userbase uses it and financially its done nothing but create a even bigger debt on MS.  

[Ian Sane]

"But guess what...people do really want those new versions."

I know.  I just said I didn't.  I was saying that those who always ask for sequels and those that ask for new stuff are not always the same people so the "Nintendo fans don't know what they want" excuse is false.

I understand that sometimes people want more of the same but I'm looking at it more from a artisitic point of view.  I only want to see sequels that need to be made.  When you're providing more of the same for people that want it that is a business decision.  The incentive there is purely money driven.  I feel that sort of decision is short sighted.  Releasing sequels purely for money is rehashing and that can bite you in the ass.

Nintendo has two big problems that result directly from too many sequels.  First of all non-fans think they're unoriginal because they release like 6 Mario games a year.  Those games are usually different but that doesn't change how people think.  There are people who think Nintendo is a rehasher and thus aren't interested in their consoles.  These people probably would be more interested if there was more variety.  The second problem is that there are a large amount of Nintendo fans conditioned to ONLY accept franchise games.  So when Nintendo does try something new it doesn't sell as well.  If you release too many sequels eventually they'll stop selling enough to be worth it and then it's too late to start up something fresh because everyone has been "trained" to only accept sequels.

[KDR_11k]

Ian: Different people, yes, but who's right? Are you right to demand that they stop making redundant sequels and continue making sequels that are worth it? Am I right by demanding they drop their existing franchises entirely because I've never liked any of them and play their games despite the franchise? Are those others out there right by saying everything can have a sequel? Everyone has their reasons. Everyone is a potential customer. But how's Nintendo going to know who's the majority? I'd guess they consider the casuals the majority, the casuals who buy crappy games and reundant sequels.

If I could have my will everyone would be making something new and creative right now. Maybe the industry would crash as a result or maybe it'll reach heights never seen before but one thing is sure: If it died as a result it'd go out in a blaze of glory.

Heh, come to think about it, what we're witnessing is the Holliwoodization of video games and we're the old school movie critics. Everything sucks by our standards because noone cares about us. Or, as those guys who make Heavenly Sword said about the next gen, "the purists will be driven out".

[ShyGuy]

Sometimes I just want an expansion pack

[Ian Sane]

"Different people, yes, but who's right?"

Well no one.  It's opinion.  I'm just saying what I want and what I would do if I ran a videogame company.  The ideal solution is balance.  Nintendo releases too many sequels and not enough new stuff.  I think few would argue that.  Things have become too homogenous.  They don't have to take it to the level I'm suggesting but they need to cut down on franchises and sequels.  There needs to be a good spread of familiar and new.

They're NOT going to sell Revolutions with Mario I'll tell you that.  I'm not saying they should kill Mario off but the Nintendo franchises did not sell Cubes so they won't sell Revs.

[MrMojoRising]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Heh, come to think about it, what we're witnessing is the Holliwoodization of video games and we're the old school movie critics. Everything sucks by our standards because noone cares about us. Or, as those guys who make Heavenly Sword said about the next gen, "the purists will be driven out".

I definately feel this way.  I already feel like an elitist when it comes to music and movies, now I have to with video games?  I really can't complain about Nintendo making too many sequels...yet*.  I look at Sony and Microsoft and see THREE games in one consoles life span and I realize that Nintendo isn't all that bad.  And at least when they re-hash something (eg Mario Advance and Mario DS) they let you know it's a game you've already played, as opposed to other developers who package THUG 2** as though it's any different from any other Tony Hawk game you've ever played.  I think Nintendo has a fairly good balance of new and familiar, I'm quite satisfied.

* Other than mario party, but I just ignore those...
**I must admit that Tony Hawk games are a guilty pleasure of mine though.  I can't help but get every game in the series, their just so addicting, even though they're all essentially the same game!

[nemo_83]

The spidery looking design I offered featured ten buttons (not including the two gyros, or any function buttons like start, on/off, lock switches, channels, etc), seven of which do things not found on the other consoles' controllers.  The buttons you don't see are the triggers with digital clicks and scroll wheels (also with digital clicks) located comfortably where the middle finger rests.  These scrolling functions allow you to do things like choose visors or weapons.  Use your nogin.  You can fill in the blanks.

The game designers would have to assign to the wheels, whether to lock in the springloaded mechanic internally, or to unlock them allowing them to be spun continuously. I designed this controller around poly functional mechanics allowing for fewer buttons.  

I want to be able to play Madden and be able to control the speed and direction of my spin intuitively.  I want to be able to lockon in Metroid and aim freely too without conflict.  I want to be able to swing a sword abstractly in any game.  

[SgtShiversBen]

Greatest Revolution Concept Art

This is some concept art for the Revolution done my DefectDS.  Just thought y'all would like to see it.

[MarioAllStar]

I absolutely love that fan-made concept art. The menus are simple and elegant and everything has that "cool" factor. I hope the real thing looks like that. Of course, it is only a menu.

I don't really like the glossy controller without protruding joysticks, but that isn't the focus of the entire gallery.
 

[IceCold]

Yea - I saw that concept before, and I really like the design for the interface (especially the download service). The guy must really be bored for his summer holidays.

[MrMojoRising]

I like that ring logo in the last few.  It's a lot simpler than the N64 or GC logos, and they keep talking about how they want to simplify the controller and such...so maybe something along those lines would be a good idea.

[nickmitch]

I like the SSB box art, except for the fact that Gombella and Toadsworth have no place in the game. 60 chacracters sounds nice but if they're going to do it like that then 45 characters will sufice.

[Ian Sane]

" I like the SSB box art, except for the fact that Gombella and Toadsworth have no place in the game."

I'd rather have them than Krystal.  Does ANYONE like that character?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

=D

[kirby_killer_dedede]

You can't tell me you haven't had fantasies about that fox, Ian.

You can't.

me neither

[KDR_11k]

So Starfox Adventures is turning people into furries, eh? Maybe we should write a letter to the ESRB...

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Except then they'd launch this huge investigation and get Australia to do it to and then they'd bump SFA to an AO rating and Yamauchi would be like "Where is teh tiku tiku?"

[KDR_11k]

At least Nintendo can claim they're making games that aren't for kids, then.