Topic: Episode 237: Shiny New Toy

[Jonnyboy117]

NinSage, I don't know if you are a new listener, but we have spent years castigating third-parties for sub-par efforts and outright absence from the Wii platform. When companies do release quality Wii games, they often fail to support them with marketing or PR.


However, it is ultimately Nintendo's responsibility (and of course, in their corporate interests) to attract third-parties and provide them with a platform on which they can be successful. I think it's quite telling that most of the major third-parties have devoted the bulk of their resources and their top creative talent to other platforms. Even though creating an HD game is far more expensive than developing even a top-tier Wii game, they expect sales to be so much better on those systems that the added costs will be more than justified.


Nintendo has created a console that is much cheaper to develop for than its competitors, and it has the largest userbase by a good margin. Yet third-parties still prefer the market conditions on other platforms. We can complain, call them cowards, call them stupid, or whatever, but they follow the money. This is ultimately Nintendo's problem and, on some level, Nintendo's fault.

[motang]

I am so looking forward for Mega Man X on the VC. I remember playing that game a lot back in the mid 90s, and one particular thing I liked about that game was the haduken secret. It was hard to get, but once you have it, that meant you can pretty much kill anything with just one haduken fireball.

[Crimm]

Hadoken instructions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S_hflJUDTc - This was always kind of fun, but it stunk that you couldn't keep it and had to get it all over again after a load from the password.


Shoryuken also shows up in the X series. It's evil to get it X2. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCiOAWW4Ljw&NR=1

[FZeroBoyo]

I wouldn't really say I have "faith" because I don't really have standards that any game developer has to live up to. As long as the final product is good, I'm fine with that. Twilight Princess, for example, was hyped for its release but nowadays, many people are quick to dismiss it for being a bit bland. While I agree with its set-up, the game itself is quite good and I still enjoy it. 3rd parties get a lot of flak and sometimes rightfully so, but there are still some very good 3rd party games on the Wii. As people say, "You just have to know where to look."


And of the two 3DS launch titles I picked up, Street Fighter IV is the one I'm enjoying more although Pilotwings is still very good. Certainly looking forward to more of what Nintendo has to offer us with this thing.

[Chocobo_Rider]

I'm a relatively new listener, only been about 6 months now.  But please keep in mind that I was speaking about the media in general and definitely not focusing on you guys.  Any disagreements I've had with your perspectives are like a paper cut compared to the gaping shotgun wound left by the rest of the gaming media.  Your quote was used as an example of general attitudes.

So, back on topic, I completely understand your "follow the money" theory, I really do.  However, I don't know that I can name even one or two games that PROVE that theory.  Can you? I'm asking honestly and if you can, I will gladly acknowledge it.

Again, was SF4 put on the Wii? Was RE5? FF13? Bioshock? Deadspace? Fallout? Metal Gear?

And why is that? Do the games really need HD to be worthwhile? Can 3rd parties really not figure out the Wii's horsepower like Nintendo does?

RE4? Nearly 2 million in sales for an old game.
MH3? Best selling console game in the franchise.

I'm using sequels and "franchises" because, for better or worse, we are living in an era where over-hyped sequels are the cash cows.  A lot of those games I listed are not necessarily the games I'd like to play, but I'm sure they would have done a lot for the Wii's reputation as a viable platform for third party success.

But no, the Wii gets TvC, RE rail shooters, Crystal Bearers, Extraction and the guy from Bethesda calls the platform a "toy."  Then these guys complain when the sales aren't top notch? I know you agree with how silly that is.

So yes, it is Nintendo's responsibility, and their problem if 3rd parties take their ball and go home. But I'd really like to know what Nintendo could have done differently.  If they hadn't gone all blue-ocean in the hardware sense, they might easily have gone the way of Sega when another equally-powered, equally-pricey machine landed them in 3rd place... again.

But nothing said 3rd parties couldn't ALSO get in on the low cost, high creativity gaming. Unfortunately, a lot of developers (and members of the media, and gamers) equate polygons and pixels to creativity... and they should know better.

EDIT: Boom Blox was a new IP, a Wii exclusive, and demonstrated how to make a quality Wii experience without crazy polygons and HD graphics.  The game sold over a million units.  How do they follow up this success? By releasing a "better" game (less than?) a year later and calling it "boom blox BASH PARTY."  In other words, they aimed squarely at their own foot and popped said cap.

From a PR perspective.....

I think Nintendo's biggest problem, then, lies not in the hardware but in public perception.  Nintendo shot out of the gate with fun, colorful, family-friendly accessible games and the media couldn't stop lashing them bellowing "where are the 'hardcore' games?"

So then we get a 2-yr stream that includes NMH2, TvC, RS2, NSMBW, SMG2, MH3, Kirby, Metroid, DKCR ... and still the Wii isn't even mentioned when The Bonus Round and Adam Sessler discuss 'hardcore' gaming.  It's like Nintendo delivered what the media asked for, but the media was too proud to acknowledge it.

It still amazes me how all Sony and MS have to do to maintain their "keepin' it real" image is pump out dudebro shooters, sprinkle in a dash of Uncharted/AssassinsCreed, and all those missteps I mentioned earlier disappear from memory.

Lastly,

Maybe I don't give Nintendo enough flak for their online capabilities? I think I must just have strong internet here because I have had an equal amount of disconnects/lag playing PS3 as I have Wii.  The game-specific friend codes are sinful.  But the quality of the online has never been an issue for me.

[Plugabugz]

Errr did someone delete my post?

oops wrong one LOL i put it in 236 not 237.

This is James' fault.

[gojira]

Random thoughts after listening to the episode. 

Unfortunately Okamiden doesn't control any better with the circle pad.  And with the placement of the stylus, I prefer playing the game on my DSi.  It looked fine on the 3DS however. 

It's been years since I played Megaman X, but I don't recall it being particularly difficult.  I've never beaten a mainline Megaman game, but I beat that game no problem.

[Jonnyboy117]

MMX is arguably easier overall, as a direct consequence of the grinding element that I mentioned on the show. If you're willing to spend five minutes filling Sub-Tanks, you're going into battle a lot more prepared than is usually possible in a traditional Mega Man title. Also, the enhanced mobility gives you a lot more options for avoiding enemies and their attacks. To balance that, the platforming and boss battles in MMX are considerably more difficult than in most traditional Mega Man games.

[farnham]

I dont agree with the notion that Gamecube was better then the Wii in terms of software.

It had almost no thirdparty support after 2003. Only Ubisoft, Activision and EA put their multiplats on it and those were normally not that great. In terms of japanese games there was definately much less going on then on the Wii. Sure Capcom put REmake, RE0, Viewtiful Joe and RE4 on the system and there was Tales of Symphonia, MGS TTS, FFCC and Baten Kaitos from Namco Bandai and Square Enix. But there wasnt much support beyond that.

The Wii had less multiplats but got some unique exclusive software from western publishers like Boomblox, Anno Create a New World, Rabbids Go Home, Redsteel 2 (wont count 1 because that was crap), da blob, a boy and his blob and dead space extraction or golden eye. Sure the number of multiplats is not as strong but if you think about it that was the same on the GC. Japanese Thirdparties however have greatly improved their support i believe. We had games like Muramasa, Little King Story, Trauma Team, Monster Hunter Tri, Silent Hill Shattered Memories, Rune Factory Frontier, Sakura Wars V, Fragile Dreams, Super Robot Wars Neo, 428, Chocobos Dungeon, Sonic Colors, Dragon Quest Monsters Battle Road Victory, No More Heroes 1 and 2, Dragon Quest Swords, Taiko no Tatsujin, Tales of Graces, Mad World, Tatsunoko vs Capcom, House of the Dead Overkill, Zack and Wiki, Okami, RE Chronicles series, the very best version of PES etc.

In terms of first party support there is no way to argue that the Wii lineup is way stronger then the GC lineup. GC had Zelda WW and TP, Mario Sunshine, Mario Kart DD, Pikmin 1 and 2, Luigis Mansion, Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime 1 and 2, Fzero, Starfox Adventure and Assault, Paper Mario 2, Eternal Darkness, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and Konga, Mario Tennis, SSBM, Wave Race, Fire Emblem PR... and thats about it. Lots of games were, while being good, dissapointments overall (Wind Waker had a great Look but was shallow in terms of gameplay, Sunshine had a neat Idea and features some of the most hardcore platforming levels but had a lot of flaws, Mario Kart DD had a nice Idea with the character swap system but it was low on content, Starfox... eh)

The Wii had Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, ZeldaTP (and soon Skywardsword), Xenoblade, The Last Story, Fire Emblem RD, Excitebots, Excitetruck, Punchout, Wii Sports and Resort, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Wii Party, Kirby Epic Yarn, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Donkey Kong Country returns, Smash Bros Brawl, Metroid Prime3 and Triology as well as Other M, Animal Crossing City Folks, Mario Kart Wii, Super Paper Mario, Wario Land Shake it, Sin and Punishment 2 and Endless Ocean. The big hitters delivered really well (Zelda TP is the best 3D zelda in terms of dungeon design, Mario Galaxy is considered the best of the series, NSMBWii is the best 2D Mario -and i played SMB 1,2,3 and SMWorld as well as Yoshis island- with an excellent multi player option, Brawl had the most content a game ever could have etc) And a lot of new stuff rolled in (Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Endless Ocean, Xenoblade, The Last Story, Punchout, Excitebots and Truck)

The Wii lineup is way more varied then the gamecube one in terms of quality and quantity.

[farnham]

Regarding the Gaming Media

I believe it is pretty clear that the gaming media in general is not very nintendo friendly.

It probably has to do with the PR strategy that nintendo has (no information ever until E3)

But i believe a lot comes down to fanboysm. I see a lot of gaming journalists that are total Fanboys of specific platforms and get no flack for it whatsoever. But if you are a nintendo fanboy you will get discredited in the second as a kiddy that knows nothing about games. There is only two major gaming journalists i can think of that are relatively friendly towards nintendo and dont get ignored instantly, jeremy parish and chris kohler.

[Jonnyboy117]

Most people don't know this, but Adam Sessler is a Nintendo fanboy from way back. I don't know how he feels about the company lately.


And of course, there's our own Billy Berghammer! You've also got Dan Bloodworth at GameTrailers, Michael Thomsen at IGN/EGM, etc. So there are more out there.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Yea, musta been waaaaay back since I started watching G4 about 5 years ago and I don't think Sess cares much for Nintendo now.  I think he likes it more than the rest of his colleagues.  But that's saying very, very..... very... little.

His reviews have had such winners as "for the next few minutes, let's pretend we care about the review of a Wii game" and in his entire Soapbox about what the gaming industry might do to turn a profit, Nintendo was (iirc) not mentioned ONCE.  That's a glaring omission.

What role does Dan Bloodworth have at GT? Can't say I've seen his name mentioned.

[lolmonade]

In the end the true blame for the lack of quality 3^rd party exclusives lies with the consumer base of the Wii.
No, not us Nintendo devotees, but the “casual” market who Nintendo catered majorly to, and it’s not like I blame them, because it brought them massive success in hardware sales.  Not only that, but Nintendo will also make bank on their software sales, because Mario is a known commodity by now, so everyone that owns the system looks to the Mariokarts and New Super Mario Bros for their extra games if they get anything outside of Wii Sports and Carnival games.

The problem is that these casual gamers will buy somewhere around 2-4 games, while people like me (and I assume you all as well) buy in the 10’s & 20’s of games.  Because 3^rd party developers believed they could sell a “core” product to the casual market and rope them into “serious” gaming, we were given a few projects like Madworld and No More Heroes.  If I recall correctly, neither had stellar sales, which gave these developers more of a reason to think there is less incentive for them to produce “serious games” for it, so you see things like movie-tie ins, games based off game shows, PS2 & PSP ports, & dumbed-down versions of PS3/360 games.  This is done by them for the same reasons you see spoofs like “Meet the Spartans” and “Vampires Suck” come out: make a game for the least cost possible, and then even if the game sells very little, it’ll still be a success because it made a bunch of money on such a small cost. 

From a business perspective, it makes more sense for these 3^rd party developers to sell to PS3/360/PC owners, because they will develop it for the weakest format and sell it on all of them.  The last attach rates I saw showed that these system owners buy more games on average than the Wii owner, which developers take as proof that there’s more likelihood that the game they release on these systems will have a better chance of selling.  Because of the hardware limitations of the Wii, they cannot be included in this process because it would take effort to “dumb-down” the graphics and gameplay to deliver a similar experience.

In our defense:
Although that’s my perception of why 3^rd party developers neglect the Wii, it doesn’t mean I agree with them.  If these developers were able to sell to the PS2 successfully, then there’s no excuse why they can’t do the same with the Wii.  This is one of the few times I’ve seen a system with the highest installed base have the least compelling set of 3^rd party games.  Although the system isn’t as powerful, the development costs should be much less than HD games, and you would think this would compel developers to work on quality titles on a smaller budget for the Wii.  As an example, I can’t believe it would be that hard for Rockstar to make a GTA game at least comparable in quality and scope as the PS2 versions.

[Jonnyboy117]

Bloodworth is a producer at GT; he writes a large portion of their reviews and also cuts together the video clips for them (which are then narrated by a professional voice guy). He's also a regular on the GT podcast.

[Kytim89]

Whatever anti-Nintendo bias that exisists within the industry makes me realize the importance of a site such as NWR. The people who run this forum have a critical eye on Nintendo, but this is not because they hate the company, they just want what is best for them. It seems to me as though some in the gaming media industry might look upon Nintendo as living past its due. What I mean by this is that Nintendo's golden years was in the early 1990s and since that time they have fallen from the lime light. Yes, they arre the market leader for this current generation based on sales of consoles, but is there any other reason to beleive that they have regained their standing in the market in terms of third parties wanting to work with them?

[Chocobo_Rider]

The 3DS is a Nintendo console, right? I'm pretty sure the 3rd party issue has nothing to do with Nintendo.

But, as discussed with the Wii, it was a brand new pool of water, and verrrrry few 3rd parties had the nerve to do more than dip their toes in... let alone cannonball.

[Chad Sexington]

So, I've been lurking this thread for the past week and looks like not very many people enjoyed the Game Genie as much as I did (or its just drowned out by all the anti-Nintendo talk).

SFII + Game Genie Air Moves was amazing.

"What system?  What game?  What code?" 

Anyone else?

 

[lolmonade]

So, I've been lurking this thread for the past week and looks like not very many people enjoyed the Game Genie as much as I did (or its just drowned out by all the anti-Nintendo talk).

SFII + Game Genie Air Moves was amazing.

"What system?  What game?  What code?" 

Anyone else?

 

I never owned one, but my friend did when we were about 12/13.  We usually used them for infinite lives cheats so we could see the end of games that seemed impossibly hard at the time for NES.  He also got a game shark for PS1 for things like unlocking all the secret cars in Twisted Metal.  When we got PS2s, it didn't seem like we needed one because I remember the cheats usually being added as either rewards for completing tasks or just as additional things to toy around with, like GTA having spawn tanks or flying mode.

Fun to tinker around with, but to be honest I was never that enthralled with them. 

[NWR_insanolord]

My favorite GameShark memory was with the Action Replay on the GameCube, which I used to unlock all the NES games in Animal Crossing, including the hidden ones. Now that we have the Virtual Console it's a lot less cool, but I had a lot of fun with that, including watching my friend play through all 32 levels in Super Mario Bros. without dying.

[KDR_11k]

Gaming itself was built on the back of the casual gamer, the Atari 2600 created the casual gamer and the NES cultivated even more of them. Yet now casual gamers are seen like some new plague that's killing gaming when they are really the foundation of gaming.

Weren't we all casual gamers when we started? I know I couldn't afford more than 3-4 Game Boy games in a year (one for birthday, one for christmas and maybe two for cheap on flea markets) and because of that I wasn't very experimental with my game purchases. It wasn't all Nintendo games for me though, back then we'd have major third party titles on the Nintendo systems that got our attention just as much. Mega Man, Nemesis (Gradius games published by Ultra), etc.

You know what we had back in those days? Game guides! One might say the internet makes them useless as you can look up hints on there but that's really not true, they aren't walkthroughs as much as marketing. They wouldn't show more than the first few levels for most games, enough to justify the purchase and get our imaginations fired up but not enough to really solve every riddle. And most importantly they covered a huge variety of games, almost all of which we never owned or played. That means we'd know about games without knowing anyone who played them and could see their content without a demo or a purchase.

[MegaByte]

So, I've been lurking this thread for the past week and looks like not very many people enjoyed the Game Genie as much as I did (or its just drowned out by all the anti-Nintendo talk).

I used to have a lot of fun with Game Genies, creating interesting codes, like strange levels for Super Mario Bros. One code I made for F-1 Race on Game Boy uncapped the nitro speed limit. It was like playing a whole new game, with all new time trial scores to beat. Another I made for Terminator II on Game Boy, for some reason worked on my Game Boy (circuit board model DMG-01-01), but not on my friend's (DMG-01-03).

[adadad]

in his entire Soapbox about what the gaming industry might do to turn a profit, Nintendo was (iirc) not mentioned ONCE.  That's a glaring omission.

Just to pick up on this point specifically, it sounds like you're imagining a bias where this is none. While I agree with you that much enthusiast press does to some extent appear to marginalise Nintendo coverage, and I too greatly value this site, why on earth would you expect Nintendo to be mentioned in a piece about certain sectors of the games industry achieving profitability? Did you forget that Nintendo are a ridiculously profitable company at the moment, not to mention that they are conservative enough to ensure that it's not feasibly possible for them to bleed money the way we've seen Sony and Microsoft bleed? In other words Nintendo are home safe and dry. How on earth does that make for a 'glaring omission'? There's nothing to say about Nintendo in that regard, unless you're looking for a self-congratulatory slap on the back - "Hoozah, the Ninty fans win again! Fans win because the company wins!". Quite clearly the discussion is aimed at both hardware manufacturers and third-party developers who are struggling financially. That's the barrier of entry if you like. No need to be upset that your company of choice was turned away at the door to this particular discussion.

[Razorkid]

Great podcast guys!  I used Game Genie at a friends birthday party for the first time playing Faxanadu on the NES.  Infinite gold was the business  . 


On the issue of negativity on the podcast, I rarely agree with Johnny's opinions or tastes in games, but I respect his arguments and he always backs them up with sound reasoning.  This is one of my top 3 podcasts that I look forward to weekly (Weekend Confirmed and Giant Bombcast being the others) amongst the 10 I listen to.  They talk about Nintendo and Nintendo related things both as fans, but also as critics and leave the asshattery out of their reasoning behind said critiques.  I have no problem with people disliking Nintendo, but these guys are the only ones who ever seem to give good solid discussion behind each critique.  Kudos gentlemen as no other podcast seem to be able to do the same amicably and professionally.

I'm a relatively new listener, only been about 6 months now.  But please keep in mind that I was speaking about the media in general and definitely not focusing on you guys.  Any disagreements I've had with your perspectives are like a paper cut compared to the gaping shotgun wound left by the rest of the gaming media.  Your quote was used as an example of general attitudes.

So, back on topic, I completely understand your "follow the money" theory, I really do.  However, I don't know that I can name even one or two games that PROVE that theory.  Can you? I'm asking honestly and if you can, I will gladly acknowledge it.

Again, was SF4 put on the Wii? Was RE5? FF13? Bioshock? Deadspace? Fallout? Metal Gear?

And why is that? Do the games really need HD to be worthwhile? Can 3rd parties really not figure out the Wii's horsepower like Nintendo does?

RE4? Nearly 2 million in sales for an old game.
MH3? Best selling console game in the franchise.

I'm using sequels and "franchises" because, for better or worse, we are living in an era where over-hyped sequels are the cash cows.  A lot of those games I listed are not necessarily the games I'd like to play, but I'm sure they would have done a lot for the Wii's reputation as a viable platform for third party success.

But no, the Wii gets TvC, RE rail shooters, Crystal Bearers, Extraction and the guy from Bethesda calls the platform a "toy."  Then these guys complain when the sales aren't top notch? I know you agree with how silly that is.

So yes, it is Nintendo's responsibility, and their problem if 3rd parties take their ball and go home. But I'd really like to know what Nintendo could have done differently.  If they hadn't gone all blue-ocean in the hardware sense, they might easily have gone the way of Sega when another equally-powered, equally-pricey machine landed them in 3rd place... again.

But nothing said 3rd parties couldn't ALSO get in on the low cost, high creativity gaming. Unfortunately, a lot of developers (and members of the media, and gamers) equate polygons and pixels to creativity... and they should know better.

EDIT: Boom Blox was a new IP, a Wii exclusive, and demonstrated how to make a quality Wii experience without crazy polygons and HD graphics.  The game sold over a million units.  How do they follow up this success? By releasing a "better" game (less than?) a year later and calling it "boom blox BASH PARTY."  In other words, they aimed squarely at their own foot and popped said cap.

From a PR perspective.....

I think Nintendo's biggest problem, then, lies not in the hardware but in public perception.  Nintendo shot out of the gate with fun, colorful, family-friendly accessible games and the media couldn't stop lashing them bellowing "where are the 'hardcore' games?"

So then we get a 2-yr stream that includes NMH2, TvC, RS2, NSMBW, SMG2, MH3, Kirby, Metroid, DKCR ... and still the Wii isn't even mentioned when The Bonus Round and Adam Sessler discuss 'hardcore' gaming.  It's like Nintendo delivered what the media asked for, but the media was too proud to acknowledge it.

It still amazes me how all Sony and MS have to do to maintain their "keepin' it real" image is pump out dudebro shooters, sprinkle in a dash of Uncharted/AssassinsCreed, and all those missteps I mentioned earlier disappear from memory.

Lastly,

Maybe I don't give Nintendo enough flak for their online capabilities? I think I must just have strong internet here because I have had an equal amount of disconnects/lag playing PS3 as I have Wii.  The game-specific friend codes are sinful.  But the quality of the online has never been an issue for me.

Perfectly articulates my thoughts about the majority of gaming media's perception of Nintendo.

[Crimm]

Not agreeing with Jonny's opinion is perfectly normal. They're usually wrong.

[ShyGuy]

James deserves an applaud for that.