Author Topic: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?  (Read 47030 times)

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Offline Stratos

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2013, 07:43:40 PM »
I liked the idea that Link's Awakening took place as a dream when Link was sealed in the Temple of Time for seven years during Ocarina.
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Offline Wah

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2013, 07:46:14 PM »
Did it? O.K, thats pretty smart!
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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2013, 07:49:34 PM »
I still don't get why they didn't go with the fact that they called it a legend and say it's like a story passed down orally through the ages, and every game is just the same story told in a different way. So simple, so elegant, would allow them to do basically anything they wanted without regard to continuity. That would explain the Zoras being portrayed differently in different games, as was mentioned here, it would explain why sometimes Link's older, sometimes he's younger, and one time he was both.
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Offline Wah

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2013, 07:59:02 PM »
Isanlord there was a offical timeline released when skyward sword came out! look it up!
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2013, 08:08:27 PM »
Isanlord there was a offical timeline released when skyward sword came out! look it up!

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2013, 09:20:01 PM »
I still don't get why they didn't go with the fact that they called it a legend and say it's like a story passed down orally through the ages, and every game is just the same story told in a different way. So simple, so elegant, would allow them to do basically anything they wanted without regard to continuity. That would explain the Zoras being portrayed differently in different games, as was mentioned here, it would explain why sometimes Link's older, sometimes he's younger, and one time he was both.

You and your common sense...
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2013, 09:35:27 PM »
I still don't get why they didn't go with the fact that they called it a legend and say it's like a story passed down orally through the ages, and every game is just the same story told in a different way. So simple, so elegant, would allow them to do basically anything they wanted without regard to continuity. That would explain the Zoras being portrayed differently in different games, as was mentioned here, it would explain why sometimes Link's older, sometimes he's younger, and one time he was both.

You and your common sense...
people would probably just call that a cop out excuse

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2013, 11:33:53 PM »
They might call it a cop-out, but they at least wouldn't mock it all the time like they do with the hacked-together timeline they've got.
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Offline Wah

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2013, 12:34:24 AM »
But miyamoto made it himself!
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2013, 01:24:27 PM »
Using a cop-out like "it's a legend told differently each time" is worthy a ridicule and so is coming up with arbitrary split timeline based on an event never ever even hinted at in the actual games.  Both just admit that Nintendo bungled the Zelda storyline.  There is no way to rationalize it that would be satisfying unless Nintendo went back in time and did it right the first time.  Zelda is unfortunately a great series of games with an incoherent broken continuity.

It's actually a good sum up of Nintendo as a company - astonishingly talented in some ways and ridiculously stupid in others.  Only someone who is somehow both a genius and a moron could have made the Zelda series.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:26:16 PM by Ian Sane »

Offline Wah

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2013, 09:00:27 PM »
Using a cop-out like "it's a legend told differently each time" is worthy a ridicule and so is coming up with arbitrary split timeline based on an event never ever even hinted at in the actual games.  Both just admit that Nintendo bungled the Zelda storyline.  There is no way to rationalize it that would be satisfying unless Nintendo went back in time and did it right the first time.  Zelda is unfortunately a great series of games with an incoherent broken continuity.

It's actually a good sum up of Nintendo as a company - astonishingly talented in some ways and ridiculously stupid in others.  Only someone who is somehow both a genius and a moron could have made the Zelda series.
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Offline Nemo

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2013, 09:59:09 PM »
Which Nintendo series needs a reboot?

Wii Sports.

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Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2013, 09:45:59 AM »
It's silly to maintain that Zelda has any kind of actual continuity, besides obvious stuff like Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass. Which really isn't a problem, it doesn't need one. And guess what, it's very easy to just shrug off a silly ad-hoc timeline published in a small run fan art book. Just like it was easy to ignore that NOA timeline people mentioned (I'm glad other people remember that). Like, is there any conceivable situation where you'd be all "man, that was the best Zelda game ever! But it didn't tie into Twilight Princess, so **** it"?


As for most wanted reboot:


Chibi Robo. I played this game last year and it blew my mind. A new version in a bigger, more complex house/neighborhood, with robo gamepad features, could be the best game ever.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2013, 10:38:20 AM »
I like when sequels intelligently use previous stories to tie everything together. There are sequels that simply continue the plot and sequels that really delve into the mythology to deliver a memorable and series changing narrative. The latter is much harder to do, but the payoff is that much greater.

I wouldn't say Zelda games are individually and intrinsically worse because the continuity is in shambles, but it could be so much better from a narrative standpoint if Nintendo cared more about it. Skyward Sword allows for the Triforce to destroy Demise, the source of all monsters. Nintendo put that story at the very beginning of the timeline. Since that's true now and the Triforce is even more powerful than previously thought, why are there other Zelda games? That potentially nullifies every future event in the entire series. How did that thing even get stolen or split? Just keep using the Triforce to destroy evil. Better yet, Zelda and Link (who already had a balance heart to use the Triforce) are standing right in front of it at the end of Skyward Sword and there's apparently no limit on making wishes like the Dragon Balls. "Hey, Triangles, just destroy and/or seal evil all the time forever from now on. Please and thank you." How do you have a potentially series breaking event like that and put it right at the beginning? That's why I generally try to overlook Zelda as a series with any sort of continuity and advocate a complete plot reboot. Establish rules and stick to them. Technologically, we're at a point where games aren't limited by the stories that can be told.

Offline shingi_70

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2013, 02:12:13 PM »
Wii Sports Club makes a ton of sense But to be honest I was hoping for a $60 full on open world sequel that's like Go Vacation.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2013, 04:04:45 PM »
Skyward Sword allows for the Triforce to destroy Demise, the source of all monsters. Nintendo put that story at the very beginning of the timeline. Since that's true now and the Triforce is even more powerful than previously thought, why are there other Zelda games? That potentially nullifies every future event in the entire series. How did that thing even get stolen or split? Just keep using the Triforce to destroy evil.

Did you even play Ocarina of Time?  The Triforce was sealed away and the only way someone could enter the Sacred Realm was by using the three Spiritual Stones which were all owned by three completely separate races, needed the Royal Families Ocarina of Time and needed to be the chosen Hero who could actually lift the Master Sword.  Ganondorf was smart enough to manipulate events to allow Link to get all these and then entered the Sacred Realm himself.  That's how it was split since he didn't have a pure heart when he touched it.

Plus the Triforce can only kill something with a name.  You can't just say kill all evil since what exactly is evil?  What some people consider evil, others consider good.  Even in Ocarina of Time, we where shown that the King of Hyrule clearly trusted Ganondorf at the beginning so even if the King had access to the Triforce which he didn't, it wouldn't have been useful since the King didn't view Ganondorf as an enemy.

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Better yet, Zelda and Link (who already had a balance heart to use the Triforce) are standing right in front of it at the end of Skyward Sword and there's apparently no limit on making wishes like the Dragon Balls. "Hey, Triangles, just destroy and/or seal evil all the time forever from now on. Please and thank you." How do you have a potentially series breaking event like that and put it right at the beginning?

Only that wouldn't work since when Link wished for Demise to die, it only killed him in the present while his past self was still alive.  So Skyward Sword itself shows that the Triforce can only have any effects in the present time, so they couldn't wish for it to kill future villains since they don't exist yet and it's power doesn't extend that far through time.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2013, 10:46:55 PM »
Did you even play Ocarina of Time?
I don't need your wikipedia regurgitated summary. I asked a rhetorical question... which you answered with a rhetorical question yet still insisted on giving me a wiki-explanation. It shouldn't even get to the point where anyone is even close enough to seize the Triforce if you can use it to kill things.

Even if you want to argue that the Royal Family can't/won't do that for some arbitrary reason, Link attains the entire Triforce at the end of A Link to the Past in that ridiculous "Hero is defeated" time split. He should just wish for Ganon to be destroyed forever. That nullifies at least the original Zelda and Zelda II. Before Skyward Sword establishes that the Triforce can kill people, it made sense for Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule to have the Triforce wash away the remnants of old Hyrule to prevent Ganondorf from laying claim to it. Now that Skyward Sword is a thing, Wind Waker's ending doesn't make sense anymore. Kill that son of a bitch and save the kingdom. That's a broken storyline. And all because Nintendo insisted on creating another prequel and haphazardly setting new rules.
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Plus the Triforce can only kill something with a name.  You can't just say kill all evil since what exactly is evil?  What some people consider evil, others consider good.
That sounds like conjecture. Would you kindly show me where and when in the games it's said that the Triforce can only kill something with a name? Otherwise, Demise promises his hatred will be reborn. Use the Triforce, break the curse. Or are we just going to assume again that the Triforce can't do that? There should be no assumptions. That's what makes this poor storytelling. If there are more definitive rules then the reader/viewer/player needs to know them.

The Triforce doesn't discriminate between good and evil, but it knows the difference as reflected by the transforming Sacred Realm. What exactly is evil? The "source of all monsters" who previously attempted to seize the Triforce, caused Hylia to give up her divinity, then stole her soul as a mortal, promises his hatred will be reborn. That sounds like a really good place to start.
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Only that wouldn't work since when Link wished for Demise to die, it only killed him in the present while his past self was still alive.  So Skyward Sword itself shows that the Triforce can only have any effects in the present time, so they couldn't wish for it to kill future villains since they don't exist yet and it's power doesn't extend that far through time.
That sounds like conjecture again. Your evidence is shaky because it's based on poor storytelling. There's nothing in the games saying that you can't kill future villains. That's why I said Skyward Sword potentially nullifies the rest of the series. Chronologically, it's first and it establishes new rules that damage the validity of subsequent games. It's easy to poke holes in Zelda's mythology because Nintendo took such little care of it. Maybe you don't think so, but honestly, I haven't seen anyone else defend it as ardently as you have.

Offline Wah

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2013, 11:08:00 PM »
Like i said theres A REAL OFFICAL TIMELINE HAS ALREADY BEEN REALESED BY NINTENDO! LOOK!
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2013, 11:40:46 PM »
My goodness, kid. I have already seen the timeline released by Nintendo. I have the The Legend of Zelda: Hyrule Historia sitting on my bookshelf literally four feet to the left of me. We have been discussing how Nintendo's timeline doesn't make sense. If you're not going to read the thread, please consider not posting.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2013, 11:49:21 PM »
Like i said theres A REAL OFFICAL TIMELINE HAS ALREADY BEEN REALESED BY NINTENDO! LOOK!

Gee, if only someone would've just, I dunno POSTED IT IN THE THREAD ALREADY!
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2013, 11:55:54 PM »
More relevant post: The ending to OoT is fucking stupid. Link turns in to a kid again, so the timeline splits? What? I feel more like nothing in the game ever "really" happened.

As for the THREE splits (or at least the "defeated split"), I can kinda see that. I have to buy the main split, but if I'm doing that then **** it.
Link starts at the base of one timeline, sleeps until the future and then goes back.
He changes that timeline, then moves forward along it into the future where he defeats Gannon. He never goes back to the previous timeline.
That makes two time lines.

Except he goes back earlier in both timelines when at the end of the game he goes all the fucking way back and none of the events really happen.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:57:26 PM by nickmitch »
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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2013, 12:06:16 AM »
Trying to employ logic with Lucariofan is like trying to convince Nintendo to reboot F-Zero - it's not gonna work, and you're wasting your time trying it.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2013, 02:10:56 AM »
Are you sure it made it so that nothing ever happened in Ocarina? The game doesn't specify WHEN Link returns in the Child Era. It could have been just before Ganondorf tries to enter the sacred realm. Or, since Ganondorf was sealed away, Link could have left him 'trapped' when he returned the Master Sword to it's resting place for good. This would mean that there was no longer a Ganondorf in the Child Era.


And I'm going off of what the specific game itself shows since anything Nintendo says on the subject now is suspect. Looking at the actual game when I first played it I thought it was clear Ganondorf was no longer in the picture. When Link returned to being a child I assumed it was at the same instant he first left his time and he was returning to young Zelda to report on what had happened on his journey.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2013, 03:29:04 AM »
Well, Ocarina of Time itself doesn't really make any sense though that's mainly because time travel is a facepalm of a plot device (Skyward Sword doesn't really make sense for the same reason). The problem is that Nintendo couldn't decide if it wanted a single timeline or multiple timelines then jumps between the two to make the plot work. Then, on top of that Nintendo threw in a parallel universe where Link fails. The alternate/parallel universe/timeline vocabulary makes this even more confusing. Depending on who you talk to, you may get a different definition for each.

Ocarina of Time's story works until it, ironically, starts messing with time travel. After the Forest Temple when Sheik gets the hell out of the way and lets Link use the Pedestal of Time to travel back to the past, the story goes off the deep end. When Link goes back in time and starts changing **** (though why he's a child is a little bit hazy... I'm thinking returning the Master Sword to the pedestal sends Link's consciousness back seven years, maybe?), he technically shouldn't have been able to return to the future he came back from because he should be asleep in the Sacred Realm except now he's not. He's running around finding gauntlets and cutting grass. I believe this is what nickmitch was referring to. The moment Link goes back in time, he should create a new timeline and when he pulls the Master Sword out of the pedestal again, he should go seven years into the future of that new timeline. Of course, that's not what happens in the game. At this point, Link should technically be timeline traveling though it's still treated as a single timeline. He changes the past which inexplicably changes a future he should no longer have access to. If you want to try to simplify this with using a time-loop, be my guest. I think that confuses more than elucidates.

Anyway, everything happens, but that doesn't mean it makes sense that it happens. There is a Ganondorf in the Child Era. After Adult Era Zelda returns Link to the past, we're supposed to assume (that word again) two strings of events occur that creates the official time split (rather than the infinite ones that should occur throughout the game yet don't). First, the Triforce of Courage breaks into eight pieces without Link in that era, he never returns when Ganondorf is revived/escapes the seal, Hyrule is flooded, Ganondorf is revived again and The Wind Waker happens. Second, Link (returned from the Adult Era) finds young Zelda (for the second time total to him, the first in this era to her) and explains everything and somehow they convince the king of Hyrule that Ganondorf is evil. The Sacred Realm is protected (this is in Nintendo's official timeline) and the Door of Time is never opened for Ganondorf to seize the Triforce. Except that doesn't make sense because in Twilight Princess (which follows the Child Era when Link was sent back by Adult Era Zelda) Ganondorf inexplicably has the Triforce of Power that allows him to survive execution and he's sent to the Twilight Realm as a last resort.

To clarify, Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm in the Adult Era and ultimately banished to the Twilight Realm in the Child Era. So, everything happens (though not all of it works if you ask any questions) and either something is missing between the beginning of the Child Era and Twilight Princess or Nintendo done goofed.

Time travel sounds cool except when you think about it too much. The only anything I felt handled it well is Futurama and I probably would have given it a pass since it's often used for comedic effect.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 03:32:54 AM by Adrock »

Offline Stratos

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Re: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2013, 07:23:14 AM »
I always liked how time travel was handled in Stargate. It dealt with the parallel realities quite often.

I don't really care if the timeline is broken. The games are all fun and I can replay any of them at anytime and have a full, rich experience. I just pretend Nintendo's PR team doesn't exist and make the games fit however I desire. Do you stare at the puppet master during a performance? The way people talk it's like the Zelda series is unplayable.

Does all this timeline talk really ruin the experience for anyone?
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