Author Topic: Sony getting hit Hard lately  (Read 665618 times)

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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2625 on: December 30, 2008, 09:48:04 PM »
5, it apparently makes a lot of noise. By contrast, flash drives are completely silent.
UMD or any disk is a bad idea for a handheld. For one it sucks battery life, two it has load times, three you need external memory to save everything, four and most important, it isn't nearly as durable and has for more that can break or get wore out.

I know its a bad idea, but I think Sony will still go with it anyway. They have a long history of ignoring common sense in order to come out with something bigger and shinier.

Plus, their hands are kinda tied on this matter anyway, aren't they? If they want the PSP2 to be backwards compatible with the original PSP's games it would have to have an optical drive. So Sony not only shot themselves in the foot with the PSP, but also each successor system as well, because now that they're locked into optical formats theres no way for them to get out except to break compatibility, which would also give an advantage to the DS2. So either way, Sony's kinda screwed.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2626 on: December 30, 2008, 10:15:59 PM »
There's no way Sony will go with disc media for PSP2.  They're already moving away from it with the PSP, re-releasing existing PSP games (Puzzle Quest, WipEout Pure) as downloadable titles from the Playstation Store (so there's the backwards compatibility with PSP taken care of).  They're also released stuff like Beats, Echochrome, and Syphon Filter: Combat Ops as download-only titles.  They haven't switched over to it entirely, but it's pretty obvious that they're setting themselves up for some heavy digital distribution next generation.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2627 on: December 30, 2008, 11:52:09 PM »
Digital Distribution will not be the answer.  Big box stores get a lot of foot traffic from actual product sales.  Amazon gets a lot of clicks for actual product games.  The first thing a Wal-Mart executive will say when you say you want your handheld or console for that matter to have their games digitally distributed is "Are you going to be digitally distributing your console?"

Plus, it'll be suicide because Sony would be ceding the entire "actual product" game market to a competitor.  Which means, of course, I hope they go this route. :D

There's not really a whole lot of options for them, and all of them are pretty bad.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2628 on: December 30, 2008, 11:58:30 PM »
Like I said, they won't go totally digital, but I'm sure it'll be a much bigger focus next time around.  PSP2 will surely have a good chunk of built-in memory, maybe 16GB or so.  I can't see them doing disc media again, unless they can improve it significantly.  Either way, I'm sure they'll do what the 360 did for older Xbox titles, which is to release them online and have people download them.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2629 on: December 31, 2008, 01:30:31 AM »
The problem with mixing the two liek that is it will cause customer confusion about where to buy PSP2 games and people will kinda be rightly sore that they'll have to pay money to play games they already own from the previous generation, and possibly games they bought the previous month.

They'd have a lot of sand to go totally digital and it would be a brave (if stupid) move, but I don't see them going halfway like that and halfway with their medium (which I think will be discs, myself.  Sony just can't stop letting their other departments horn in on their games division, it seems.)

They are actually in a pickle powerwise, too.  Do they go for PS3 graphics in a handheld?  People don't even care about PS3 graphics on the PS3.  Too much power and they'll have trouble grabbing developers away from a DS2, which Nintendo will probably only moderately improve in order to keep things safe and easy to dev for.  Too little power and their fans will either revolt or they'll start their newspeak engines and say "Sony has never been about graphics technology."  But either way they do not have enough fans to survive by themselves and they'll have to try and innovate their way out of it like Nintendo.  It just remains to be seen if they can.

I don't envy their position, that's all I'll say.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2630 on: December 31, 2008, 01:42:05 AM »
Throw Apple into the equation and I too don't envy Sony's position at all.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2631 on: December 31, 2008, 01:08:59 PM »
The problem with mixing the two liek that is it will cause customer confusion about where to buy PSP2 games and people will kinda be rightly sore that they'll have to pay money to play games they already own from the previous generation, and possibly games they bought the previous month.

They'd have a lot of sand to go totally digital and it would be a brave (if stupid) move, but I don't see them going halfway like that and halfway with their medium (which I think will be discs, myself.  Sony just can't stop letting their other departments horn in on their games division, it seems.)

They are actually in a pickle powerwise, too.  Do they go for PS3 graphics in a handheld?  People don't even care about PS3 graphics on the PS3.  Too much power and they'll have trouble grabbing developers away from a DS2, which Nintendo will probably only moderately improve in order to keep things safe and easy to dev for.  Too little power and their fans will either revolt or they'll start their newspeak engines and say "Sony has never been about graphics technology."  But either way they do not have enough fans to survive by themselves and they'll have to try and innovate their way out of it like Nintendo.  It just remains to be seen if they can.

I don't envy their position, that's all I'll say.

It actually gives consumers flexibility especially if the game is out of print. If you want the physical product? Great you can buy your UMD games, if you want to carry a bunch on memory stick? Awesome download and play off the memory stick. If you want to get a game that you can't find in stores but it's available online? Great just download and enjoy.  You guys seriously act like babies sometimes this setup is actually beneficial because it gives consumers a choice and greater availability.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2632 on: December 31, 2008, 01:13:15 PM »
Quote
people will kinda be rightly sore that they'll have to pay money to play games they already own from the previous generation, and possibly games they bought the previous month.

Gee, I thought trying to get people to rebuy stuff is like the way to do business now.  Wii-makes and all that. ;)

Is backwards compatibility really actually important with any PSP2?  The DS didn't support GB/GBC compatiblity.  The DSi has no GBA slot.  Nintendo, the portable market leader, is moving away from backwards compatibility on portables.  Odds are the frustrating "rebuy your old games digitally" model is probalby exactly what they're moving towards.

So if the next PSP can't use discs but can't provide true backwards compatibility without using them then I think the solution is to just not have backwards compatibility.  It isn't like the PSP is this hugely popular system that all these people have tons of old games for.  What Sony would obviously want with a PSP2 is for a HUGE chunk of newcomers to buy it.  They don't want to just sell it to the PSP userbase.

The PS3 just dropped PS2 backwards compatibility.  The Xbox 360 never really had it.  The only truly backwards compatible console is the Wii and 90% of that userbase doesn't care because they never owned a Cube in the first place and Nintendo doesn't support the Gamecube anymore or emphasize at all the Wii's ability to play those games.  With the Wii-makes on the way I'm sure Nintendo is wishing they never offered backwards compatibility in the first place.  They're hoping most people don't notice that their Wii already plays those games and that many of them can be found for cheap on eBay.  Now I know with portables it's a little more important since you aren't going to bring your old portable along with you.  But I don't think enough people care to make it a deal breaker.  The only people that really care about old games are hardcore gamers and they'll buy the PSP2 if it has games they're interested in.  If you own a DS and a PSP then you have the prioritize when gaming on the go anyway.

Though I question why Sony should even bother with another PSP.  I think their bigger issue is to hold on on the console front long enough to make it to next gen and this time not make their console so damn expensive with no wiggle room to make pricecuts.  They used to know how to make consoles people wanted.  They NEVER knew how to make portables people wanted.  So prioritize on getting back what you were once good at.

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2633 on: December 31, 2008, 02:00:24 PM »
The problem with mixing the two liek that is it will cause customer confusion about where to buy PSP2 games and people will kinda be rightly sore that they'll have to pay money to play games they already own from the previous generation, and possibly games they bought the previous month.

Mixing the two is already done on Xbox 360 and PS3, and nobody seems to be confused.  The PSP isn't any different.  It'll be like Burnout Paradise, Warhawk, or SOCOM on PS3 - you can buy these games in disk form, or you can download them off of PSN.  It's you choice, just like PC users can buy Valve games at retail or over Steam.

They'd have a lot of sand to go totally digital and it would be a brave (if stupid) move, but I don't see them going halfway like that and halfway with their medium (which I think will be discs, myself.  Sony just can't stop letting their other departments horn in on their games division, it seems.)

UMD is fine as a storage media.  It failed as a platform to sell movies on, but that doesn't have anything to do with the media itself.  Of all the complaints about the PSP, reliability of the disc-reading mechanism isn't one that I've ever heard.  The only real knock against the UMD discs is that they're slower to access than cartridges, but then what isn't?

They are actually in a pickle powerwise, too.  Do they go for PS3 graphics in a handheld?  People don't even care about PS3 graphics on the PS3.  Too much power and they'll have trouble grabbing developers away from a DS2, which Nintendo will probably only moderately improve in order to keep things safe and easy to dev for.  Too little power and their fans will either revolt or they'll start their newspeak engines and say "Sony has never been about graphics technology."  But either way they do not have enough fans to survive by themselves and they'll have to try and innovate their way out of it like Nintendo.  It just remains to be seen if they can.

I don't envy their position, that's all I'll say.

I don't think they're locked into any particular graphical spec.  As long as there's a marked improvement over the original PSP, I think most people will be happy.  They just need to really decide what their goal is going to be with the PSP2, and match the graphics accordingly.  They really need to offer a less strictly console-like experience with the PSP2.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2634 on: December 31, 2008, 02:10:39 PM »
I thought another knock against UMD discs was they drained the battery more than a flash based storage medium.

Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2635 on: December 31, 2008, 02:11:37 PM »
Well Lindy the only knock I have against UMDs are 1, the plastic shell is easy to break and is crap and 2. the disc itself has no protective layer so a scratch will kill it fast.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2636 on: December 31, 2008, 03:26:13 PM »
I guess I just take really good care of my discs.  I treat them like gold, just like I would a DVD.  I'm sure they do drain battery life quicker, but I've really never had a battery life issue with my PSP either.  It's like a cell phone, I just keep it plugged in when I'm not using it.  It lasts for a several-hour plane ride, which is that "sweet spot" for me.  I don't care if the battery lasts twelve hours, since it's not a cell phone.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2637 on: December 31, 2008, 04:57:56 PM »
Quote
Mixing the two is already done on Xbox 360 and PS3, and nobody seems to be confused.  The PSP isn't any different.  It'll be like Burnout Paradise, Warhawk, or SOCOM on PS3 - you can buy these games in disk form, or you can download them off of PSN.  It's you choice, just like PC users can buy Valve games at retail or over Steam.

Yeah but all those games kinda flopped, and that's just them trying to grab more revenue by charging full retail prices for games you can find for $19 on Amazon. It's not the sort of ideal solution it's made out to be.  When they put big-name titles on it first day, that's when I'll turn my head.  But otherwise it's just a revenue grab.  And Steam is a bad example.  Piracy runs rampant on the PC.  Steam is more of a defensive measure against piracy than a future model for retail.  And it's not like the PC market is going really well enough that console manufacturers who make their money off consoles (Oh I'm sorry, that's just Nintendo, my bad) and licensing fees should emulate their defensive measures against piracy as a model for revenue.  Another thing is that just because they are DOING these things, doesn't mean that A) it's working and B) people like it.

Quote
UMD is fine as a storage media.  It failed as a platform to sell movies on, but that doesn't have anything to do with the media itself.  Of all the complaints about the PSP, reliability of the disc-reading mechanism isn't one that I've ever heard.  The only real knock against the UMD discs is that they're slower to access than cartridges, but then what isn't?

Well, like others said, it drains the battery, so not only is it slow to load that time playing nothing it drains the battery faster so you don't get to do much playing when you actually are.  The plastic shell case means cleaning the disc (should you have to) is a huge hassle.  These may not be issues with you, but they do detract from the product and others find issue with it as well.  That's why the DS is stomping its guts out on the technical level.  And slower access is actually the CRUCIAL thing with a handheld, that makes all these other complaints seem niggling by comparison.  When it takes a whole minute just to load a game on PSP, while a guy with a DS is playing in seconds, the only thing blocking him being the corporate logo hell he might have to sit through, it's pretty damning.  And I understand your desire to keep your things in pristine shape, but that shouldn't even be an issue with portables.  Because they are, you know, portables, they should be able to take a hit.  The games have to be able to survive being left out on a desk or a dusty floor.  DS card and cartridges in general are great at this, where as discs are really bad for this.

Quote
I don't think they're locked into any particular graphical spec.  As long as there's a marked improvement over the original PSP, I think most people will be happy.  They just need to really decide what their goal is going to be with the PSP2, and match the graphics accordingly.  They really need to offer a less strictly console-like experience with the PSP2.

No way.  Wii games, mostly from Nintendo and especially Mario Galaxy, show a marked improvement over GameCube games.  That doesn't stop people from ragging on it all day.  If the PSP2 doesn't set a new benchmark for graphics, they can kiss their hardcore set goodbye, as that was the only thing selling the PSP for a long time.  And I'm not sure what you mean by "console-like experiences."  A lot of DS games have the same or better-than console-like experiences, particularly the strong gameplay-focus that seems missing from the console games as a whole.  Heck some of the DS's games even used to BE console games, like Chrono Trigger.  If you just mean graphics, well, like I said above.

I think my biggest problem with the PSP is that it was severely casual focused and tried to hide it with GT Mobile screens.  And by casual focused, I mean even worse than the dread "Nintendo non-gamer focus."  I mean they made their portable with movie-playing, MP3 capability, and fashion statement in mind.  They allowed, nay, ENCOURAGED their customers to use it as an MP3 player, or a media thing.  Even if the accusation of Nintendo making and selling casual games were true, at least "casual games" are still "games" that people buy and play, thus generating game-related revenue, which turns to profit from game-playing capabilities.  Game studios and publishers get ZERO from somebody using a PSP as an MP3 player.  This is why you don't see much enthusiasm regarding the PSP, really.  A significant chunk of their market aren't even gamers at all, casual or hardcore.  And only Sony benefits from that.

And as for backwards compatibility, the DS sold about 90 million of DS Pahts and Lites, both of which have GBA backwards compatibility.  I'd say they have the majority of people who care about it covered.  But it still is an important thing to have for your early adopters.  I know a DS2 will play DS1 games.  GBC or GBA games on download won't be so wrong, because by the time a DS2 comes out, GBA games will have already been discontinued from stores for a good 3 or 4 years.  But the previous generations games must be backwards compatible, mainly because it's not like they torch the land of the previous consoles games the second they arrive.  Backwards compatibility allows for customer satisfaction and generates revenue for the company by still having their old games still be viable products.

The only reason I could see Sony not doing it is because even they think their PSP games are unpopular and nobody would care about playing them again.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2638 on: December 31, 2008, 05:02:17 PM »
Although it is a fact that ANY hardware that plays disk media like the UMD, DVD, and CD will have shorter lifespans than one with less moving parts, ESPECIALLY a portable system.
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2639 on: January 01, 2009, 02:34:54 PM »
I like the new commercial, with the guy trying to convince his gf that his PS3 is really a movie-downloading device
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2640 on: January 01, 2009, 03:38:09 PM »
Although it is a fact that ANY hardware that plays disk media like the UMD, DVD, and CD will have shorter lifespans than one with less moving parts, ESPECIALLY a portable system.

Yeah just look at the life span of a 360 ZING!
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2641 on: January 01, 2009, 03:43:15 PM »
I like the new commercial, with the guy trying to convince his gf that his PS3 is really a movie-downloading device

Yeah, but I was shocked... they ended the commercial negatively. I mean... can they do that? Aren't commercials supposed to make their product look great for everyone, not putting their primary purchaser to sleep?
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2642 on: January 01, 2009, 04:46:20 PM »
The commercial kind of sums up Sony's whole philosophy.

"This plays games!"
"No, it does everything."
"But it plays games."
"It plays everything."
"Including games."
"You can buy and download things."
"Like games?"
"Like everything."
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2643 on: January 01, 2009, 04:46:45 PM »
I like the new commercial, with the guy trying to convince his gf that his PS3 is really a movie-downloading device

Yeah, but I was shocked... they ended the commercial negatively. I mean... can they do that? Aren't commercials supposed to make their product look great for everyone, not putting their primary purchaser to sleep?

Don't you get it Kai it's supposed to portray that stupid multimedia features like these put "hardcore gamers" to sleep. I can't wait to see a commercial for the horrible PS3 feature known as HOME.

The commercial kind of sums up Sony's whole philosophy.

"This plays games!"
"No, it does everything."
"But it plays games."
"It plays everything."
"Including games."
"You can buy and download things."
"Like games?"
"Like everything."

PS3's movie store thing had to happen at the worst timing though because it makes it seem that Sony is doing me "Me too" console against the 360 (I want to see 360 do remote play :P).
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2644 on: January 01, 2009, 05:43:56 PM »
You could do a big post about the 360 commercials and the PS3 commercials both featuring women in passive roles when it concerns playing video games, in that they are portrayed as wanting to watch a movie rather than play games, and how that relates to cultural stereotypes. (especially in that Sony commercial, where the men are seen as 30-year-old man-children falling asleep during a romantic comedy.  COMEDY GOLD... for the playground.  Girls are icky, right?)

You could ALSO do a post about how these are grabs at non-gamers, but even worse than Nintendo's apparent "non-gamer focus," because not only are they trying to get people who aren't playing games, they don't seem to want them to play games at all.  "Casual" games, "non-games," whatever the label... are still GAMES.  If I were a game maker, I want be as incensed about this commercial as I would about Sony basically encouraging people to not buy PSPs.

And digitally downloading movies?  But what about Blu-Ray?  Don't they have any confidence in this format?

This might actually be the most self-damaging commercial ever.

Edit:  you just as I hit "post," it dawned on me that the guy in the commercial didn't want his girlfried/wife to know he was hooking up a game machine.  Almost as if he were ASHAMED of video games.  Is this what Sony thinks of their customers?  Who greenlit this ad?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 05:50:15 PM by Deguello »
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2645 on: January 01, 2009, 05:52:49 PM »
I'm pretty bullish on digital distribution.  It can be powerful stuff when packaged simply enough for the masses to access it (the best examples of this is the Amazon Kindle and iPhone).  When a portable can download games over-the-air like a Kindle, look out.

Steam is brilliant.  I actually buy PC games so it works for me.  They have about 15 million accounts now, so other people like it too, apparently.  And they put games on sale, too...Bioshock for PC is $5 right now.  It's an anti-piracy measure, sure, but so is console hardware.

Agreed, PSP2 needs to be more rugged.  The PSP is way too fragile.  It amazed me that they gave it that beautiful screen, but no native way to protect it.  The disc media isn't ideal, but I don't think it's terrible either.  Cartridges/cards will always rule for portable devices of any kind.  UMDs seem pointless now that you can get 4GB SD cards for less than $20 now.

Backwards compatibility is important, but will surely be handled by putting old games on PSN for download.  Get away from UMD and let whoever wants last-gen games bad enough have access to them.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2646 on: January 01, 2009, 06:01:25 PM »
You are severely over thinking these commercials, everyone knows what blu-ray is already is and while it isn't taking off well because of economy and a high barrier of entry and such. You have to realize that Microsoft and Sony is trying to position their consoles as a multimedia box and are offering a lot of different things to generate a profit.   
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2647 on: January 01, 2009, 06:15:24 PM »
What I don't really understand is how we're this late in the life span of the DS and PSP and yet neither one of them has dipped below the $99 threshold yet. Hasn't the GB/GBC/GBA reached that by this point in their life cycles?

If Sony wants to boost PSP sales figures, a drop to $99 is a sure fire way to do it.
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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2648 on: January 01, 2009, 06:20:15 PM »
DS sales are STRONG, strong enough that a price drop isn't warranted.  Hardware sales are strong, software sales are strong, signs of a long shelf life.

You drop prices to slow down a sinking ship, which DS is not.  If sales are still this strong, you have to rethink what is "late in the life span"--we're probably not in the "late" portion yet.

PSP... well... it's making some money, but the software isn't driving the hardware sales, so as a platform, getting it in more peoples' hands isn't so big a deal.  It's just another Sony gadget.  Whereas on DS, the software and hardware work together to increase the userbase.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Sony getting hit Hard lately
« Reply #2649 on: January 01, 2009, 06:21:04 PM »
You are severely over thinking these commercials, everyone knows what blu-ray is already is and while it isn't taking off well because of economy and a high barrier of entry and such. You have to realize that Microsoft and Sony is trying to position their consoles as a multimedia box and are offering a lot of different things to generate a profit.   

I get that, but when even the people in a commercial are arguing over what a PS3 is meant for, what are everyday consumers to think?

You could do a big post about the 360 commercials and the PS3 commercials both featuring women in passive roles when it concerns playing video games, in that they are portrayed as wanting to watch a movie rather than play games, and how that relates to cultural stereotypes. (especially in that Sony commercial, where the men are seen as 30-year-old man-children falling asleep during a romantic comedy.  COMEDY GOLD... for the playground.  Girls are icky, right?)

You could ALSO do a post about how these are grabs at non-gamers, but even worse than Nintendo's apparent "non-gamer focus," because not only are they trying to get people who aren't playing games, they don't seem to want them to play games at all.  "Casual" games, "non-games," whatever the label... are still GAMES.  If I were a game maker, I want be as incensed about this commercial as I would about Sony basically encouraging people to not buy PSPs.

Hmm... maybe YOU should do the blog post? It sounds like you've already given this some thought...

What I don't really understand is how we're this late in the life span of the DS and PSP and yet neither one of them has dipped below the $99 threshold yet. Hasn't the GB/GBC/GBA reached that by this point in their life cycles?

If Sony wants to boost PSP sales figures, a drop to $99 is a sure fire way to do it.

Maybe the market has truly expanded. Nintendo's sales charts show that the DS is still peaking at a time when the GBA had passed its peak, almost as if someone took a bell curve and shoved the thing far to the right. The DS is still an insanely hot item, it's only running out of steam in Japan, hence the DSi.

As for Sony, cutting price on hardware to gain marketshare wouldn't help them. I don't know if they make enough on PSP game sales to begin with, and it seems that hardware profits on the PSP are the brightest spots for that unit right now.
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