Topic: GameCube Third-Party Support Rally

[questworld]

Hello gamers, welcome to the GameCube and Nintendo Third-Party Support Rally. This is basically one of several similar threads that’ll reach multiple forums and message boards across the net to help voice the general dissatisfaction and unfair treatment of gamers on the GameCube (and what maybe the common stigma Nintendo systems in the future may face). This is especially in reference to companies like Konami, Square-Enix, etc.

The fact is most saw the GameCube as “kiddy” from the start and they made their support, if any, reflect that delusion. A system’s reputation is only as good as the games that grace it. The NES and SNES are proof of that and they were 2D-based systems (another instrument that has been dismissed as mainly kiddy for its lack of detail and realism). Even Hideo Kojima once said that “it would be nice to have a Metal Gear game for DS, but the thing is I personally think that the audience for DS will be like that of GBA - it'll be a much younger audience. And this Metal Gear's not really suitable for them." Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear, etc. pretty much never made the same level of acclaim until they went all 3D and cinematic.

With respect to Konami, we GameCubers and Nintendo supporters alike simply need to remind them to stop from giving us only games like Disney Sports, Yu-Gi-Oh, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, etc. I for one cannot vouch for these games’ quality; however, my opinion is that apart from Twin Snakes I find their support lacking (particularly when most of us have requested more of games like Silent Hill, Metal Gear Solid, Contra, Castlevania, Ys, Enthusia Professional Racing, DDR, etc.) Hopefully, with Twin Snakes, we might at the least finally get a port of both Sons of Liberty and Snake Eater (the former perhaps being a pre-order bonus). If you want to support the release of these games or any others from Konami, post your thoughts here (Snake Eater's coming, tell them you want it or it'll be Substance all over again). Alternatively, you can post them in this thread:

http://www.konami.com/main/cgi-bin/...ic;f=1;t=001764

As for Square-Enix, Crystal Chronicles was fine and all, but definitely didn’t turn out to be the game most would’ve expected. Many have called for true RPGs synonymous to their reputation, even remakes to Final Fantasy VII and the like. GameCubers are being left out in the cold with the PS2 continually receiving pretty much everything (a FFVII spin-off no less – what a slap in the face). I feel that they’ve been wasting GCN owners’ time anticipating games that aren’t even there. Rumors seem abound more on the GCN than actual games. This isn’t a request to abandon the PS2, this is a request for more on the GameCube. It’s been so many years while they’ve taken every opportunity to port as many games as they can on the GBA. Kingdom Hearts, of all things, makes it on the GBA, and with a “kiddy” reputation, you’d think GCN would be just the ticket for such a game, and yet, nothing. With so many projects on the PS2 you’d think S-E can spare one for the GCN. Even a simultaneous port would be appreciated. Considering their games have been quite linear, I doubt a two or even four disc game would be such an issue.

Frankly, there are many companies out there that keep GCN owners at a pole’s reach. Whether its mostly aesthetically kiddy games, to lack of game development, or to a constant drop of features available to other systems, GCN owners almost always get the short end of the deal.

(Burnout 3 online-centric? Tell me everyone who bought it for the Xbox and PS2 are going online with it. How about 70%? 50%? If you tell me that only 20% of these people use it, then bring it. No multiplayer in Pandora Tomorrow? Sega holds the numbers as to how many people go online with the GCN. Not many? Why? Does Ubisoft earn anything while they provide a FREE service to PS2 and PC owners? It’s a chicken and egg deal. You’ve got to provide the service to entice GCN owners to buy the modems that’ll support the service, hence, expand the online community on the system. Will Chaos Theory be the same or will we at least get the co-op mode?)

Got threads, petitions, etc.? Post them here. The boards yours people. Let ‘em have it!

[King of Twitch]

So is there going to be a protest rally somewhere? Like in the streets?

Gamecube online support is a lost cause

[Infernal Monkey]

Konami are just bitter that nobody liked their overpriced crap on N64. "WHY YOU NOT BUY GASP FIGHTERS, NBA IN THE ZONE 98 OR CASTLEVANIA 64 PART 2: THE FIRST ONE DIDN'T MAKE ANY MONEY. THEY ARE QUALITY GAMES!"

Still, I really don't understand their whole Disney Sports rubbish on GameCube. Did they even play these games?
"Sir, we've made Donald Duck Plays Football in Kawaii Land for GameCube, like you requested"
"Good. Noooooow, make... hmmmm... make the same game, but replace the football with a basketball and call it Goofy Plays Basketball in Crazy Land"
"Sir, that won't make much sense"
"QUIET, I'M BUSY MAKING SILENT HILL 4 A GENERIC HEAP OF CRAP"

[KDR_11k]

I think this won't work. S-E and Konami are perfectly happy where they are: Breeding the largest userbase into a monopoly. They got their users and they don't care about minorities like GC users. I propose the following: Next gen we all buy whichever console grabs first place and support only that. This will effectively lead to a monopoly and allow the console manufacturer to approach publishers and developers with a "don't like it here? Go elsewhere! What, there's noone else to go to? Well, guess you're screwed then" attitude and teach them what it means to make a deal with the devil! Let them suffer in the hands of the demon they summoned, let them bleed and enjoy their screams! The manufacturer restricting them to five games a year? Hey, you want  the biggest userbase, right? The manufacturer blocks certain types of games? Well, you should have thought of that BEFORE setting them up for a monopoly!
Once they've learned their lesson the manufacturer will fall from grace next round but the third parties will be smarter for the next few gens. Stir 'em up, they've settled down and started to rot already!

[questworld]

C'mon guys.  Are you ready to give up or are you thristy for more?

I'm just doing this to sort of network any and all individuals from multiple message boards who still want to keep their opinions in the minds of these companies.  Will it do much?  Probably not.  But for all the years I've bought their games I do feel like I'm being neglected.  And for what?  Because I happen to enjoy Nintendo's games as well?  I like 'em all.  Konami, Capcom, Tecmo, EA, Ubisoft, Square-Enix, Koei, etc.  Feedback is always important no matter what system your on.  And if petitions, and boards are the best thing I can do to contribute, then why not?

Incidentally, there won't be any rally on the street or anything that extreme.  We're not trying to toss out a corrupt government or anything.  However, there's no reason you can't go out in the streets.  After all, gamers could use the exercise.

[vudu]

Listen Macaulay, these things never work.  Never.

The cube gets some decent third party support from a couple companies.  We get a few really nice exclusives.  But, for the most part, people who own a GameCube do so for the purpose of playing Nintendo games.  We typically feel that their games are the best out there and we're happy with our choice.  We're always happy with whatever bone is thrown our way, but most of us don't bitch and moan if the PS2 or Xbox get some games that we don't.  Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some Paper Goombas to go beat up.

[Ian Sane]

I've done my part regarding third party support.  14/27 of my Cube games are third party which is just over half.  I bought Crystal Chronicles and hated it.  It was a dull frustrating hack 'n' slash with the Final Fantasy name attached to it and with an expensive and useless hardware requirement.  I bought The Twin Snakes and loved it though I likely wouldn't have bought it if I had the original MGS.  Considering Konami and Square Enix have not released anything else worthwhile on the Cube they can't blame me.

I don't think there's anybody here who owns no third party Cube games.  We're doing our "duty" or whatever.  There just aren't enough of us for third parties to care.  It's those who bought a Cube as a secondary console that are a problem.  They bought a Cube because it's cheap and they only buy a few Nintendo titles with all their third party purchases being on the PS2.

Blame those casual owners.  Blame the third parties for making inferior Cube versions of multiplatform games or making poor games period.  Blame Nintendo's sheer incompetence with the Cube's first year for a low userbase.  Don't blame us because we've done what's expected of us.  PS2 owners just buy whatever the f*ck they want and nobody sh!ts on them so no one should sh!t on us for doing the same thing.

[KDR_11k]

7 out of my 24 games are first party, the rest is third party. Unfortunately the average GC owner seems to have more like a five out of six ratio...

[UncleBob]

There's another way y'all need to look at this, however.

Okay, here's a quick rundown of my GCN Game Collection (and there's a reason I'm going here).  I've had my GCN since launch (at midnight) and never trade/sell any of my games.

I consider myself an "above average" gamer.  I'll get games that I think are fun and usually won't spend a lot on them unless it's something *I* really want.  However, I'm big on the old games (with my Intellivision, NES, SNES, and N64 ready to go) and I *love* gimmicks (ROB, Super Scope, e-Reader, etc...)

Anywhoo, here we go.

Animal Crossing (Launch - $50 - Wal-Mart)
Donkey Konga (Launch - $50 - Wal-Mart)
Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (Launch - $50 - FYE)
Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures (Launch - $50 - Wal-Mart)
Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour (Used - $15 - Game Crazy)
Mario Party 5 (Launch - $50 - EB Games)
Metroid Prime (Used - $15 - Junk Store)
Pikmin (Used - $15 - EB Games)
Super Smash Bros. Melee  (Launch - $50 - Wal-Mart)

Pokémon Colosseum (Demo - $5 - Target)
Legend of Zelda: Collectors Edition (Freebie - Nintendo Power)
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Freebie - Wind Waker Reserve)
Metroid Prime II Demo (Nintendo Freebie)

Batman: Rise of Sin Tzu (New - $20 - EB Games)
Crazy Taxi (Used - $15 - EB Games)
Midway Arcade Treasures (Launch - $20 - Wal-Mart)
Pac-Man World 2 w/ Pac-Man Vs. (New/Re-Launch - $20 - Wal-Mart)
Resident Evil (Launch - $40 - Target)
The Sims (New - $10 - Toys R Us)
Sonic Adventure 2 Battle (Launch - $50 - Wal-Mart)
Soul Caliber II (New - $20 - Wal-Mart)
Super Monkey Ball (Launch - $50 - Wal-Mart)
Super Monkey Ball 2 (Launch - $50 - Wal-Mart)
Tetris Worlds (New - $10 - Toys R Us)

So you look at this list and see, hey, here's a somewhat casual gamer who, not including freebies/demos, has 11 third party games, but only 9 1st party games.  Third party games appeal to the casual gamer as well!  Why do third party companies not support the Gamecube?

Well, $345 1st Party vs $305 3rd Party.  That's about $38 per game vs. about $28 per game.  About a $10 difference.  So even though I do give plenty of support to the third parties, I don't really like to give them as much money.  Plus, had I not been caught up in the hype, I never would have bought Resident Evil or Sonic 2 - I just didn't care for those games... (Knocking those off, it makes my 3rd party average a mere $22).

So the whole point is, just because someone's collection is half first party/half third party, it doesn't mean that the particular Cube owner really gives third party companies more (or enough) support.  While I probably would have picked up Pikmin and Mario Golf at the higher prices (and not been disapointed), I don't really think I could have seen myself picking up any of the third party games at $50 (aside from Super Monkey Ball) without being disapointed.

In the future, I can see myself picking up another Donkey Konga (or Jungle Beat), the next Zelda and possibly the next Mario Party at the $50 price tag.  I don't see myself picking up Arcade Treasures 2, Resident Evil 4, or another Sonic Game - even at a $20 price tag (maybe RE4 for $20) - let alone a $50 price tag...

So before you start waving the third party flag around, toting your list of 3rd party games, make sure you take into account how much you pay for them and when you buy them... because buying them a year after their release at a discounted price isn't really helping third parties think the Gamecube is where they want to bring their AAA titles...

[Flames_of_chaos]

Well lets see for cube my games include 17 Nintendo Published games and 15 3rd party published so im about 52%/48% on First party vs 3rd party.  And the reason theres alot of 3rd party on PS2 and Xbox because Sony's and Microsoft's first party support is crap compared to Nintendo's first party support.

[Mario]

Quote
Originally posted by: Lord_die_seis
Well lets see for cube my games include 17 Nintendo Published games and 15 3rd party published so im about 52%/48% on First party vs 3rd party.  And the reason theres alot of 3rd party on PS2 and Xbox because Sony's and Microsoft's first party support is crap compared to Nintendo's first party support.

Exactly, and if ALL third party games were on GameCube, we would have the best third party support and the best first party support on the one console, thus eliminating the need to own any other console! Or something..

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I have 14 Nintendo-published games, all new, non-Player's Choice.

I have 16 3rd-party-published games, all new, with only Monkey Ball2 being my ONLY Player's Choice title.  6 of which are from Capcom.  3 of which are from Sega.  I'd say I'm not a casual gamer.

[Rancid Planet]

Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey

Still, I really don't understand their whole Disney Sports rubbish on GameCube. Did they even play these games?
"Sir, we've made Donald Duck Plays Football in Kawaii Land for GameCube, like you requested"
"Good. Noooooow, make... hmmmm... make the same game, but replace the football with a basketball and call it Goofy Plays Basketball in Crazy Land"
"Sir, that won't make much sense"
"QUIET, I'M BUSY MAKING SILENT HILL 4 A GENERIC HEAP OF CRAP"

Best impression of Konami EVER.

Back on topic (to an extent). Of course GCN owners are going to buy a whole freaking lot of Nintendo's first party software. If you didn't want Mario, Samus, and Link you wouldn't have bought a GCN to begin with. It is important to keep buying those third party games though, and not at discount in the super saver bin for $9.99 at Wal-Mart either. I mean brand new at GameStop or EB.

Granted most people who would post here are fairly intelligent gamers who can recognize a good non-Nintendo game when they see it and don't hesitate to buy it. The problem is this. How do you get the generic Nintendo fan who ONLY owns a GCN for the first party stuff to buy more second/third party software? Many people who have a GCN now, previously bought a PS2 and they buy PLENTY of third party games for the PS2 that are readily available for the cube. This is frustrating and there is no good answer, no real solution to the problem.

All I can say is maybe if Nintendo helped these third parties out with some advertising dollars the third parties in question would match them better. Not fair to Nintendo, sure, but Nintendo has dug themselves a hole here. While this is hardly the same as the N64 days when we had to wait MONTHS for a new game to come out, it could be significantly better than it is. Nintendo should just bite the bullet and start kissing some serious ass. Lower the roylalty rates for third party software down to a rediculously low level if certain game release quotas are met. Sort of an I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine kind of thing.

I don't know. This whole thing sucks. I don't like getting too wrapped up in it because it makes my brain hurt.

[NIGHTWING2.5]

Thank you questworld; Now I don't feel so alone trying to make my  point about 3rd party support for the GC. GC owners don't seem to realize or care that; Nintendo History is reapeating itself. It's just like the N64 era again.; but we can't just blame 3rd parties. The blame is also on Nintendo. I mean they obviously give in to these so-called parental groups, or something like that. I mean we really have to get on their backs about trying get these 3rd party developers back to support their game systems, not to mention make sure they educate parents on the game rating system. If Nintendo as a game corp. doesn't change it's "because we're Nintendo" ego when it comes to dealing with 3rd party developers. Then there's really no point for them to release Revolution their next console. I mean you  can only make/take so much of Mario and  Pokemon. At least I can. Mario 64 was enough for me. Mario Tennis though was good.  

[Ian Sane]

"So before you start waving the third party flag around, toting your list of 3rd party games, make sure you take into account how much you pay for them and when you buy them... because buying them a year after their release at a discounted price isn't really helping third parties think the Gamecube is where they want to bring their AAA titles..."

Yeah but why should I have to intentionally spend more money?  I buy most games new just because I don't usually want to wait to play them but that shouldn't make a difference.  If you own a good amount of third party titles it shows your interests lie beyond just the first party titles and that's really all that matters.  Most PS2 owners probably buy a lot of used or discounted third party titles and that doesn't make a difference.

A fair bit of people have suggested that Nintendo try to put more focus on the third party lineup.  While in theory I think that's good look at the US DS launch lineup.  All but one of the titles is third party so third party games will initially be top sellers.  However the launch lineup SUCKS.  The problem with third parties is a lot of them try to make the best selling game with the least amount of effort so really lame average-to-bad third party titles are everywhere and now the DS launch lineup is pretty crummy which may hurt Nintendo more than anything.  I think Nintendo should advertise major third party titles, make deals with third parties, and lower licensing fees but not at the expense of the first party lineup.  The best thing Nintendo can do is make the Revolution really third party friendly (ie: no smaller memory cards, generic controller layout, etc) and really bust their ass within the first year to make the Rev the best system it can be.  This should allow them to attract a wider userbase which will encourage third party sales.  That's basically the solution.  Make a console people actually want to buy.

[KDR_11k]

I bought almost all of them at full price, you're not given much choice when it comes to GC titles. They never seem to drop in price.

But then the GC is my only somewhat recent console and my only portal to the console genres.

[Mario]

Quote
However the launch lineup SUCKS. The problem with third parties is a lot of them try to make the best selling game with the least amount of effort so really lame average-to-bad third party titles are everywhere and now the DS launch lineup is pretty crummy which may hurt Nintendo more than anything.

Sorry, but the Nintendo DS launch lineup does not suck. Every single game has something unique about them and uses the DS's features, Spiderman 2 is a great example, that game looks fantastic and makes good practical use of the touch screen. But let's not turn this into a DS discussion, you've made it pretty clear you have something against the DS and I won't try to change your mind, I just find your ignorance towards the games rather annoying.

As for third party games on GC, over here if it's not published by EA, the only way to get it is to preorder it or get it very close to release, so all my third party games i've bought when they first came out just to make sure I got a copy. Hell, some games like Skies of Arcadia and Ikaruga weren't even released here, because the cubes userbase is that small. Therefore i blame the userbase of the GC for "lack of third party games".

[Ian Sane]

"you've made it pretty clear you have something against the DS"

No I don't.  I was a big supporter of it until I saw the launch lineup.  I'm still in support of the system itself I just have no intention of buying it at launch.

If you want a different example I'll use the PS2.  It was the same scenario with only one first party game and as a result the lineup was lame.

[joshnickerson]

Square-Enix and Konami are dried out husks of their former selves. S-E's gotten all wrapped up in making pointless Final Fantasy sequels and CGI movies that happen to have small bits of gameplay attached to them. Konami in my view hasn't made anything good since the SNES era (DDR being the lone exception).

[kennyb27]

Quote
The blame is also on Nintendo. I mean they obviously give in to these so-called parental groups, or something like that.

I think this may  be the second time I've seen you post something along these lines.  And I still can't figure this out.  I can honestly say I haven't heard anything about Nintendo being influenced by "parental groups" that in some way play a part in the games they release on their console...  So either I'm just outside of the loop or I'm not sure of the delusional world you seem to be living in.  

And Ian, I have to agree with Mario on this one.  I do think the launch lineup is slim and not the most overwhelming ever; however, I don't think the games that are being released by third parties at the launch are "crummy" or "really lame average-to-bad third party titles."  Many of the games may end up being better than their console counterparts (for example, Spiderman2 or Madden) and many may be solid, unique experiences (eg, Feel the Magic, Sprung, or Ping Pals).

[KDR_11k]

Nintendo has strict guidelines how to make games that offend nobody but they haven't imposed them on others since the late SNES era.

[Captain Olimar]

in most of the shops over here the shelf space set aside for the cube is a fraction of the efforts they go to for xbox and ps2. in all honesty, its microsoft who have ruined the cube this time round not ps2. the xbox is a s*** console and hasnt made any money at all, but microsoft are possessed into dominating the console market and will waste millions and millions of $$ to get it done. microsoft paid theyre way into the market, buying third parties (bungie etc), buying shelf space, giving back more margin to the shops if theyre selling xbox's etc. this leaves little incentives for shops to stock and sell the latest cube titles (or the rare titles like doshin etc), so we get left with a small corner in the shops with most of the leftover s*** games being sold at full price 39.99. yes the cube is a repeat of n64 demise but since when does that change anything. i love nintendo even tho i dont even like mario (or luigi , i thought metroid prime was a letdown, and i still have played wind waker (even 2nd hand i cant find it cheaper than 30). big claps for Activision, they just released X-men legends on all platforms. Currently playing: pikmen2, donkey konga Currently wanting: X-men legends, Tales of symphonia

[1day]

I think Halo was actually originally going to be additionally released on the ps2. How the world would be different place today. As far as I am concerned, Xbox sole source of sucess is from Halo and everything following it(massive ps2-like 3rd party support) is the result of having this success.

[MaleficentOgre]

here's a secret, DOA3 helped just as much, if not more in the development scene.  If it wasn't for team ninja, xbox wouldn't be where it is today.

[1day]

Here another funny logic loop. If the GameCube were the most powerful system, then all of Team Ninja's games would have released only on GameCube!