Author Topic: Official Sales Thread (Read 3159803 times)

Enner · « **Reply #9025 on:** December 26, 2013, 03:53:27 AM »

'Cause we're all here because we're numbers junkies and armchair business people:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=740455
"An analysis of Nintendos financials" by Captain Smoker

Included are fancy charts of net sales, net income, and other whiz bang from the Nintendo's financial years ending at 1981 through 2013. Also, breakdowns between hardware and software for the financial years ending at 2001 through 2013.

Some choice takeaways and quotes:

The Wii and the DS are incredible phenomenons the likes of which Nintendo shouldn't expect to see again.

Nintendo makes more money selling their hardware than their software, even in the GBA and GCN years.

Quote

Considering this, you can say that people saying that Nintendo should abandon their hardware is quite a crazy idea, because it makes up to 60% of their business.

Nintendo managed to ship around 700.000.000 of it's own software titles during their Wii & NDS - age and still didn't manage to generate higher revenues than their hardware,
of course, Wii & NDS had great hardware sales, but unlike the first year in the chart, hardware beats software everytime.

Just another thing, Nintendo needs to sell 759.319.667 games per year at 5 $ in the App Store to account for the same hardware revenue. And 30 % goes to Apple. (Comparing last fiscal year)

Selling the 3DS and the Wii U below the cost it takes to meet them is unprecedented for Nintendo and has severely affected their operating income and net income (these terms are explained in the opening post of the thread).

Nintendo handhelds have earned more money for Nintendo other than the early years of the Wii.

Be sure to read the full post for all the juicy numbers.

Mannypon · « **Reply #9026 on:** December 26, 2013, 11:49:54 PM »

An even better quote is

Quote

Just another thing, Nintendo needs to sell 759.319.667 games per year at 5 $ in the App Store to account for the same hardware revenue. And 30 % goes to Apple. (Comparing last fiscal year)

imagine how much they would have to sell if they included software revenue in that calculation. It almost makes you wonder if those in the businesses who say Nintendo should go 3rd party and release mobile games have even done any research to begin with.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #9027 on:** December 26, 2013, 11:59:20 PM »

I, for one, am completely shocked that the people calling for Nintendo to switch to developing for smartphones have absolutely no idea how Nintendo operates financially.

azeke · « **Reply #9028 on:** December 27, 2013, 12:31:51 AM »

You don't even need to make that many computations.

I remember the news last year then Apple's digital infrastructure (games+apps plus whatever) generated revenue in a sum of whooping 4 billions USD in it's entire lifetime or something like that.

Which sounds impressive but is actually laughable because it's comparable to what Nintendo makes in a year.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #9029 on:** December 27, 2013, 12:35:00 AM »

The funny thing about that is that Apple also makes most of its money off hardware. The whole iTunes Music/Video/App Store is just a means of creating an attractive hardware platform.

azeke · « **Reply #9030 on:** December 27, 2013, 12:43:26 AM »

Quote from: NWR_insanolord on December 27, 2013, 12:35:00 AM

The funny thing about that is that Apple also makes most of its money off hardware.

Yep:

App Store is hidden in the little sliver of "Software & services".

Khushrenada · « **Reply #9031 on:** December 27, 2013, 04:28:24 AM »

Quote from: NWR_insanolord on December 26, 2013, 11:59:20 PM

I, for one, am completely shocked that the people calling for Nintendo to switch to developing for smartphones have absolutely no idea how Nintendo operates financially.

For someone who acts a bit cynical, I, for one, am completely shocked at how often you express being completely shocked at various posts and behavior you see on this forum.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #9032 on:** December 27, 2013, 04:42:07 AM »

So I'm too lazy to vary up my sarcastic mockings. Sue me.

Khushrenada · « **Reply #9033 on:** December 27, 2013, 03:59:59 PM »

Naw. I'd rather just point it out in a semi-humorous post. Much simpler.

Ceric · « **Reply #9034 on:** December 27, 2013, 08:57:32 PM »

Hardware is much more profitable than Software. I little surprised until I think about the hidden costs and hardware durability.

smallsharkbigbite · « **Reply #9035 on:** January 01, 2014, 01:23:18 PM »

Hardware is not remotely more profitable than software in most instances and these graphs prove nothing.

These comments are on revenue, not profit. Yes, selling hardware for $300/piece versus software at $50/piece makes it easier to generate more revenue from hardware, but we don't know about profit. Most of the time providers are getting a small profit on hardware and a large percentage of profit on software. For instance, Nintendo probably made <$20 for each Gamecube sold and >$20 for each item of software sold for it.

There are unique situations. The Wii was sold popular that they sold it for $250 for three years. They were probably making a very healthy profit on it by the time they reduced the price. Apple is known for pricing their hardware high and getting away with it because they are deemed to have a superior app store. Most of the time in the console market people are just trying to recover the several billion they have in R&D and cover the overheads supporting the console side of the operations. Oh yeah, and putting the product in as many peoples hands as possible so their very profitable software can multiply.

I mean if hardware is the most profitable thing, the Wii U solution is easy. Go license free and watch third parties flock to the Wii U. Oh, they won't be willing to do that, because that is 100% profit and hardware isn't profitable? Oh, well I guess.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #9036 on:** January 01, 2014, 04:26:21 PM »

The problem with the Wii U is that, at least last we heard, they're currently taking a loss on the hardware. They're eating that in order to increase the user base in order to attract developers, so it would appear that at least in the short term Nintendo's making their money primarily in software (and 3DS hardware and peripherals for both).

smallsharkbigbite · « **Reply #9037 on:** January 01, 2014, 06:31:38 PM »

Their problem is the Wii U doesn't meet consumer needs and is thus unpopular. If it met consumers desires, they could charge more and sell more. Since it doesn't, they are going to chase their tail trying to make it appear to have more value (lower prices, make more games) and not fix the major issue which is the console isn't what people want in the first place. Supply and demand sets price. There is plenty of supply, but not much demand and the price will drop at a rate much faster than the Wii to try and gain demand but will likely fail.

Other than that, no, I don't think hardware profits have ever beaten software profits (outside of possibly a couple years of Wii). Nintendo gives detailed revenue information, but they don't give enough cost information to come to a definitive conclusion. However, the variable cost on hardware is always high, whereas the variable cost on software is near zero which leads to the conclusion. The best reason for Nintendo needing their own hardware, is they cut out the approximate 20% licensing fee on their software that they would have to pay on other platforms.

That person went though a lot of work, which I'm not going to recreate. But there are a couple of wrong assumptions within his analysis, and I would be really surprised if Nintendo included royalties with their software division as opposed to their hardware division. It's a usage payment for use of their hardware, and not a result of Nintendo creating software so mixing it with software seems odd to me. I think that would be a reason why hardware would be higher than software as typically the amount of third party games typically dwarfs the number of Nintendo first party games even if Nintendo sells more.

Best case scenario on the hardware side is Apple with their hardware. They get about 40% margin because people think they are superior and have superior apps. Most of our arguments are about Nintendo being niche so I don't think 40% margin is a realistic goal for Nintendo on hardware (maybe 3DS). But let's look at Mario Kart Wii. We'll assume Nintendo received $40/game from the stores. Wii games cost about $8M fixed cost to make and about $2/variable cost (disc/packing/shipping). 34 million were sold.

That means it produced 34M x $40 = $1,360M or $1.36B in revenue. The costs were about $8M fixed + $2 x 34M ($68M) = about $76M. So the profit was about $1,208M or $1.208B or a margin of about 89%. Yes, Mario Kart sells very well, a game that bombs changes things significantly. But Nintendo has several high profile games and rarely sells bombs. I don't see how hardware can be any where near as profitable as software for them.

NWR_insanolord · « **Reply #9038 on:** January 02, 2014, 05:15:58 AM »

It's been established that the GameCube was more profitable for Nintendo than the PS2 was for Sony despite the latter selling something like five times as many units and I would imagine at least as much more software. That money had to come from somewhere.

smallsharkbigbite · « **Reply #9039 on:** January 02, 2014, 09:48:05 AM »

Has it been established? From what I've seen Nintendo doesn't break down profits by product line. Nintendo may have been more profitable during the GameCube era but a great deal of that profit likely derived from GBA and DS profits.

As a software developer Nintendo drives much more revenue than Sony with first party titles which are highly profitable and would tip the scales in favor of Nintendo even if licensing revenue would be lower for the period since Sony sold more games overall.

It's pretty complicated and Nintendo doesn't release enough information to the support the conclusion you are trying to reach.

BlackNMild2k1 · « **Reply #9040 on:** January 03, 2014, 09:18:54 PM »

I just ran across some sales numbers for the UK for last year, mostly focused on the PS4 & XBO launches (1st 5-6weeks).

XBO = >2x WiiU LTD
PS4 = >XBO+WiiU

PS4 sold 530k in 5 weeks
XBO sold 364k in 6 weeks

530k - 364k = 166k

which means that Wii U sold less than 166k LTD (as of end of 2013) in the UK and I believe it launched in 2012... not looking too hot for Wii U in the UK.

Do those numbers sound accurate?

BranDonk Kong · « **Reply #9041 on:** January 03, 2014, 11:16:40 PM »

Yeah pretty sad. PS4 outsold Wii U's UK LTD in it's first day of sales.

Phil · « **Reply #9042 on:** January 05, 2014, 04:08:28 PM »

I feel like my tastes don't gel at all with the UK's. I won't say their taste is poop or anything, but it's not what I call interesting.

Nile Boogie Returns · « **Reply #9043 on:** January 17, 2014, 11:16:40 AM »

Quote from: Nile Boogie Returns on December 24, 2013, 10:11:52 PM

So much doom in this thread. While I understand the trepidation, I can't imagine where giving up on a 13month young console makes any sense. in terms of sales, how many units does nintendo have to sell in dec to ease the fears with the fan base. 400k? 500k 1m? (btw, 400-500k for dec is what I'm thinking)

I think Nintendo is going to "double down" on Wii U. Push the chips to the center of the table and lets see what happens. Europe is lost(so what) Japan will come around when "that" games comes out and here in the west well, we'll just have to see.

This ain't over folks not by any stretch.

When I posted this I felt like this would be a solid number to ease the fears of the fan base, boy was I wrong. I can't believe just how dire the situation appears to be. Despite being the best all around console of 2013, it seems like nothing will start this train. Is it purely marketing? Top 5 exclusives? The tech is lacking but not abysmal by any means. So what gives…

December2013 sales are approx. 461,000

Bizzy_Fatso · « **Reply #9044 on:** January 17, 2014, 12:41:03 PM »

It was far from the best overall console of 2013, unless you're only including "next-gen" consoles, in which case it's hardly a fair comparison. People don't purchase consoles just for the existing games - they need to see strong potential for years of enjoyment out of a system. This is all the more important if they can only purchase one. Nintendo's fundamental problem is that the market can tell their system's potential is severely limited - you're going to get basically zero third party titles (or shoddy downports), and Nintendo and its second party developers seem to put out software at a snail's pace.

I'm going to be pretty disappointed if Nintendo has to go third party because of this gross miscalculation by their leaders. It's so frustrating when the problems are so apparent from the outside and yet they seem so completely ignorant.

Mop it up · « **Reply #9045 on:** January 21, 2014, 07:55:05 PM »

Historically, I didn't think Nintendo systems have ever done very well in the UK.

Adrock · « **Reply #9046 on:** January 21, 2014, 08:55:39 PM »

I recall reading in like 2011 or 2012 that Nintendo had enough money to lose like $250 million per year for the next like 40 years then like $6 billion on top of that in investments and whatnot which would last another 20-something years. If in the next 60 years or so Nintendo absolutely couldn't turn it around, they would still have their intellectual properties to sell off. I don't know how much truth there is in that, but I never got the impression that Nintendo was really in any danger. All this nonsense of them going third party or developing for Android/iOS just seems silly to me.

Nintendo acts like they don't have those reserves. They're most active when their financials take a hit. When you look at the sharp 3DS price drop in 2011, it wasn't something that had to be so drastic. Nintendo probably could have gotten away with like a $50 price drop, especially with two major titles coming at the end of that year. Nintendo has this nasty habit of becoming complacent when they're successful. They play it safe until they're forced not to. Wii U underperforming might end up being a good thing.

Enner · « **Reply #9047 on:** January 22, 2014, 06:54:07 PM »

Japan numbers!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=756020

Top-seller: Kirby Triple Deluxe - 81.069 / 295.276

Nintendo 3DS/3DS XL sales: 47.438 / 14.946.067

PlayStation Vita/Vita TV sales: 26.963 / 2.489.736

Wii U sales: 11.443 / 1.602.164

Media Create Sales: Week 3, 2014 (Jan 13 - Jan 19)

01./01. [3DS] Kirby Triple Deluxe <ACT> (Nintendo) {2014.01.11} (¥4.800) - 81.069 / 295.276 (-62%)
02./02. [3DS] PazuDora Z: Puzzle & Dragons Z <RPG> (GungHo Online Entertainment) {2013.12.12} (¥4.400) - 48.788 / 1.265.209 (-8%)
03./03. [3DS] Pokemon X / Y # <RPG> (Pokemon Co.) {2013.10.12} (¥4.800) - 23.600 / 3.893.725 (-31%)
04./07. [3DS] Youkai Watch <RPG> (Level 5) {2013.07.11} (¥4.800) - 19.039 / 327.985 (+34%)
05./04. [3DS] The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds # <ADV> (Nintendo) {2013.12.26} (¥4.800) - 17.897 / 341.398 (-32%)
06./08. [3DS] Battle For Money Sentouchuu: Densetsu no Shinobi no Survival Battle! <ACT> (Bandai Namco Games) {2013.10.17} (¥4.980) - 17.057 / 241.926 (+25%)
07./06. [PS3] Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD Remaster <RPG> (Square Enix) {2013.12.26} (¥7.140) - 14.026 / 255.759 (-14%)
08./05. [3DS] Monster Hunter 4 # <ACT> (Capcom) {2013.09.14} (¥5.990) - 13.297 / 3.192.848 (-32%)
09./10. [PSV] Final Fantasy X/X-2 HD Remaster: Twin Pack # <RPG> (Square Enix) {2013.12.26} (¥7.140) - 12.805 / 207.212 (+5%)
10./09. [WIU] Super Mario 3D World <ACT> (Nintendo) {2013.11.21} (¥5.985) - 10.500 / 463.020 (-20%)
11./11. [3DS] Animal Crossing: New Leaf # <ETC> (Nintendo) {2012.11.08} (¥4.800) - 8.491 / 3.649.813 (-22%)
12./13. [PS3] Grand Theft Auto V <ACT> (Take-Two Interactive Japan) {2013.10.10} (¥7.770) - 7.381 / 682.216 (-21%)
13./19. [PS3] World Soccer Winning Eleven 2014 <SPT> (Konami) {2013.11.14} (¥7.980) - 5.834 / 296.844 (-16%)
14./14. [PS3] New Dynasty Warriors: Gundam <ACT> (Bandai Namco Games) {2013.12.19} (¥7.980) - 5.507 / 207.036 (-41%)
15./17. [3DS] Mario Kart 7 <RCE> (Nintendo) {2011.12.01} (¥4.800) - 5.401 / 2.263.720 (-26%)
16./18. [PSV] New Dynasty Warriors: Gundam <ACT> (Bandai Namco Games) {2013.12.19} (¥6.980) - 5.352 / 103.234 (-23%)
17./16. [3DS] Friend Collection: New Life # <ETC> (Nintendo) {2013.04.18} (¥4.800) - 5.334 / 1.651.030 (-27%)
18./20. [PS3] Gran Turismo 6 # <RCE> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2013.12.05} (¥6.980) - 5.081 / 302.433 (-17%)
19./15. [3DS] Inazuma Eleven Go Galaxy: Big Bang / Supernova <RPG> (Level 5) {2013.12.05} (¥5.500) - 5.062 / 222.026 (-31%)
20./21. [3DS] New Super Mario Bros. 2 # <ACT> (Nintendo) {2012.07.28} (¥4.800) - 4.817 / 2.236.013

Top 20

3DS - 12
PS3 - 5
PSV - 2
WIU - 1

HARDWARE

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|System | This Week | Last Week | Last Year | YTD | Last YTD | LTD |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 3DS # | 47.438 | 60.154 | 81.855 | 284.147 | 453.775 | 14.946.067 |
| PSV # | 26.963 | 32.016 | 9.036 | 134.379 | 53.433 | 2.489.736 |
| PS3 | 13.243 | 14.845 | 19.697 | 68.173 | 107.040 | 9.777.847 |
| WIU | 11.443 | 14.020 | 16.654 | 76.734 | 104.452 | 1.602.164 |
| PSP # | 4.024 | 4.758 | 15.343 | 22.065 | 87.285 | 20.090.474 |
| 360 | 273 | 281 | 706 | 1.001 | 3.520 | 1.640.317 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| ALL | 103.384 | 126.074 | 145.490 | 586.499 | 819.209 | 50.546.605 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| PSVTV | 2.208 | 2.522 | | 10.043 | | 86.287 |
| PSV | 24.755 | 29.494 | 9.036 | 124.336 | 53.433 | 2.403.449 |
| 3DSLL | 32.393 | 40.038 | 51.015 | 186.587 | 263.576 | 5.612.473 |
| 3DS | 15.045 | 20.116 | 30.840 | 97.560 | 190.199 | 9.333.594 |
| PSP | 4.024 | 4.758 | 15.343 | 22.065 | 87.285 | 19.914.487 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No new releases this week as Kirby Triple Deluxe hangs on to the top slot.

Mop it up · « **Reply #9048 on:** January 26, 2014, 04:41:45 PM »

Look at the little pink puffball go!

Sarail · « **Reply #9049 on:** January 26, 2014, 07:03:57 PM »

Brings a tear to my eye. *sniff*

Looks like a really fun game.

News:

Poll

Will Nintendo pull off another 30 for 30 in Japan sales this year and, if so, how many times?

Author Topic: Official Sales Thread (Read 3159803 times)