Topic: Was anyone else disappointed by E3 this year?

[Mashiro]

Lol zing!

I should edit that to say video game world . . . would make more sense but your comment still applies haha.

[UERD]

Quote
Yeah, it's sad, but sometimes it seems like this year is going to be Nintendo's last hurrah for gamers.

WII IS DEAD, PS3 REIGNS SUPREME, 'VIDEO GAMES' RELEGATED TO THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

[Mashiro]

Quote
Originally posted by: UERD

Quote
Yeah, it's sad, but sometimes it seems like this year is going to be Nintendo's last hurrah for gamers.

WII IS DEAD, PS3 REIGNS SUPREME, 'VIDEO GAMES' RELEGATED TO THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

End of the world CONFIRMED.

[Kairon]

Woah, this thing certainly flamed up a bit.

The hope for Wii hardcore games is third parties. Nintendo games are a GIVEN. There's no use talking about them, they're coming, we know they're good, no big surprises there. Maybe a new IP, maybe not, blah. But the REAL tastey hardcore stuff will have to come from third parties, and that's what the (non)Nintendo fan within me is watching for. I don't know if it's fair to ask people to wait another two months for the TGS, but if we don't see a lot of major game announcements by then, I'll be seriously questioning the adoption rate of the Wii amongst third parties (and hence, supply of hardcore games) no matter how much anecdotal evidence we have otherwise.

Sure, Nintendo is good. But they'll have failed if all they've succeeded in changing is themselves. They're out to change an entire INDUSTRY here folks. If nothing expands, if nothing changes, if the Wii's innovatiuon turns out cosmetic... then they'll have failed, no matter how many consoles they've sold or how much money they'll have made.

[Urkel]

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
It's become pretty clear that Iwata was correct and very insightful when he said that the Wii was a secondary system for hardcore players.

Is that... what Iwata actually said? My interpretation of that quote was that he was saying that Wii is so inexpensive and different from the other consoles that virtually every hardcore gamer is going to end up buying a Wii, even if they owned another console already. Not the other way around.

Quote
Old-school Nintendo fans do need to come to terms with it, as much as we hate it, but new-gen Nintendo fans also need to stop being dismissive about it and/or pretending it's not happening.

Just like they abandoned their fans with the DS?

Are you even going to attempt to refute that?

[IceCold]

Iwata definitely didn't say secondary console.. he just said that some gamers may want to buy a PS3 or a 360 in addition to a Wii for other "hardcore" gaming experiences with HD and the like.

[Urkel]

I went and dug up that Iwata statement. Cuz I'm hardcore.

Quote
In fact, he goes as far as to say Nintendo hopes those hardcore enough to care about the graphical differences and buy a PS3 or Xbox360 will also buy a Revolution, since the Revolution will provide unique experiences. A bold statement--one clearly demonstrating a shift in Nintendo's console strategy. Nintendo isn't trying to be number two: it is aiming for the top spot from a different angle--one that is profitable for both Nintendo and its partners.

Suck on that.

Suck. On. That.

All he's saying is that he expects graphic whores to pick up a Wii, er, Revolution too.

Man, I've seen this statement used so far out of context so, SO many times.

[BigJim]

Quote
What in the heck is a new-gen Nintendo fan?

Someone that's not an old-school fan.

And before you ask what an old-school fan is, it's the people "complaining" about the non-games.

Mysterious, no?

Quote
I think the sooner "old-school" Nintendo fans realize Nintendo is still making the same great games we've been getting for years WHILE expanding the market , the video game world will be a better place.

The nay sayers have no basis for their arguments. Nintendo arguably lived off of first party games for the past two console generations with a few second and third party games being worthwhile. It's been like this for a good long while now guys, Nintendo has always used their IPs to keep themselves afloat. Just because some new IPs aren't geared towards you specifically it doesn't make them BAD. The new non-gamer IPs just add to Nintendo's supply of already existing IPs.

"Same" is one of the keywords there. Many of these games are indeed the same thing again.

Point is, just because there are gamer/hardcore/whatever games in the lineup, they are not immediately silenced out of having a valid opinion. The technical availability of those types of games doesn't mean they are going to be satisfied. That is specifically why I said they need to stop dismissing other opinions.

This issue has come up plenty of times before, long before launch even, when people were using Red Steel as proof positive of a non-stop flow AAA hardcore titles to keep us happy, so we should just shut up already... Yeah, not so much. Just more of the dismissal dreck. That was pretty "baseless" reasoning to me. But that is neither here or there.

The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. The bottom line is Nintendo is not big enough. They struggled back in the N64 days as you mentioned, and they certainly aren't big enough now with a deliberately split focus.

Nobody's really complaining about what they're doing. It's what they aren't doing. Until Nintendo proves they can do it all for real (Kairon wisely alludes to 3rd parties being key here) then this issue will continue and remains valid, regardless of what others that are personally satisfied feel about it.

Quote
Just like they abandoned their fans with the DS?

Are you even going to attempt to refute that?

Can't sensibly refute a strawman. Abandon is your word, not mine.  

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Until Nintendo proves they can do it all for real (Kairon wisely alludes to 3rd parties being key here) then this issue will continue and remains valid, regardless of what others that are personally satisfied feel about it.

Hear that? I'm wise!

But yeah... it's cool and all if that the Wii is selling so much, and Nintendo puts out the games we all know they'll put out, but it'll be an immensely phyrric victory if we don't get the majority of third party support. It'd essentially be a Gamecube 2. That's EXACTLY what we're trying to avoid.

[Shift Key]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
E3 is a GAMER event

Bupbow, troll. E3 is a media event. That's why you're so close to it and yet you never get to attend.

For all those people bitching about new IPs, look at what the real definition of an IP is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

Quote
The term intellectual property reflects the idea that this subject matter is the product of the mind or the intellect.

BUH GUH DUH WUH, you may be asking?

Well, its simply concerning an idea that is unique, different or distinct. If you were to take several ideas (or one if you were lazy) and put them into a tangible form in this case it would be called a game.

So we just had E3. Games were displayed. Some were expected, others were new.

I'm not going to list off all the E3 games, because quite frankly I'm behind the times and not interested in showing you guys the forest when you complain about a tree.

Oh, you were asking for something specific. "Where is X game?" "Why did game X just go to the PS3?" "X is just a non-game." "There are no hardcore games coming out"

When did everyone get in their heads that E3 was where all cards had to be shown?
At the start of the year the popularity of the Wii was starting to show. Six months is a long time in the game development process, and most companies were caught off guard. And we all remember how badly Silicon Knights were mocked for showing an incomplete build at last year's E3 (if you don't, just google "Dennis Dyack whinge blog" and you should see it).

You people expect to see results overnight when things change, and then complain because they only see the tip of the metaphorical iceberg.

Things are always changing. But the indicators are there. If you can't see that then its your own fault.

Grow up, petulant children.

[EasyCure]

Bravo

[Pittbboi]

Quote

Bupbow, troll. E3 is a media event. That's why you're so close to it and yet you never get to attend.

Oh please. Yes E3 is a media event. But it's a media event for GAMES (it's what keeps it from just being a general technology event) and it's an event that's followed by mostly GAMING media that have readerships composed of mostly GAMERS. Just Google it and see where the majority of E3 media coverage comes from this year and every year. Thank you.

Quote

When did everyone get in their heads that E3 was where all cards had to be shown?

And when did you get it into your head that that's what ANYONE wanted? I can only really speak for myself, but I'm sure what most of us "complaining" wanted was at LEAST some physical indication that gamers would have something to look forward to AFTER Nintendo's tried and true franchises hit the shelves. A 5 second movie clip would have been all it took to put fears that Nintendo was abandoning gamer projects for the sake of casual games to rest. In no way do I think anyone was asking for or expecting playable demos and release dates for every Nintendo game ever mentioned or speculated on in the past year. Just an indication of where they're taking the Wii and what we, as Wii owners, can expect in future. Outside of Mario Kart, we got none of that. And hell, if even SONY could do it...    

[Ian Sane]

"Pilotwings is non-gamer focused.

Prove it isn't."

No game that came out prior to Iwata's speech about gamer drift and non-gamers and such is a non-game.  To say so is revisionist history.  From a modern point of view several older titles would be considered non-games now.  Pong if made now would be designed for non-gamers.  But it wasn't made now.  It was made at a time where paddles playing ping-pong was a huge deal for videogames.  Pilotwings was made for the SNES audience which was entirely made of gamers.  The idea of attracting people who never gamed or had lost interest didn't even really exist.  If you had a SNES you were a gamer and every game that wasn't blatant edutainment was a game.  Pilotwings was a very advanced game at the time designed for people who played videogames and those who played videogames ate it up.

Naming some game from years ago and declaring it a non-game is like when people say that America's forefathers would have supported such-and-such political idea that didn't exist at the time.  Non-gaming started with Iwata in charge of Nintendo.  And the issue is neglect of the old audience which even if you decide that older games were non-games it doesn't matter because those "non-games" weren't a problem.  The problem isn't expanding the audience but rather changing the audience.  I wouldn't care if Nintendo made non-games if I felt that the focus on gamers was not diminished or if Nintendo had demonstrated in the past to show commitment to anything that isn't there main focus.  They aren't and that's why I'm concerned and in the past when Nintendo doesn't really care (third party support, mature games, online support on the Gamecube) they only do a token effort.

Nintendo and anyone here defending them can do their best to try to prove to me that Nintendo isn't neglecting gamers but if you have to tell me I'm not going to be convinced.  I would KNOW if Nintendo was putting in the proper effort because I wouldn't need to discuss it.  This isn't all theoretical.  This is ultimately about customer satisfaction.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Obviously releasing Mario Galaxy, MP3, Paper Mario, Batallion Wars II, and Smash Brothers in one year means Nintendo is neglecting gamers. Ian said so.

[Mashiro]

If you aren't satisfied with Nintendo and arguably their BEST FIRST PARTY LINE UP IN HISTORY then go buy a PS3 or Xbox 360. Simple as that.

Edit: Ian a better way of putting your "argument" would be "I'm just not happy with Nintendo on a personal level. I don't enjoy their games anymore". That's all I get from you when it comes to this discussion.

Nintendo isn't changing their audience and has done nothing to show you that they are. You can complain all you want about the audience changing but nothing has been done (On the DS nor on the Wii) to illustrate and prove your point.

If the time comes where we go "wow the only game in 2008 we're getting is mario kart!?" then I would agree with you. But with games like (as GP said) SSBB, Mario Kart, LoZ:PH, SMG, BWII all coming out within the next 6 months or so, I just don't see how Nintendo is turning it's back on us. They are release an incredibly good string of first party games that are for gamers (and in some cases anyone else who wants to pick up and play).

I just don't see the problem.

[Ian Sane]

"Obviously releasing Mario Galaxy, MP3, Paper Mario, Batallion Wars II, and Smash Brothers in one year means Nintendo is neglecting gamers. Ian said so."

Releasing JUST those, all of which are sequels, with the crappy third party support the Wii has?  That's no different than the Cube or maybe worse.

"Nintendo isn't changing their audience and has done nothing to show you that they are."

I think Nintendo has shown tons but the "Nintendo is perfect" people are happy so they don't notice or care.  I express concern that all Nintendo thinks gamers want are sequels and then I get a list of sequels back as proof that I'm wrong.

[Mashiro]

Ian your argument is flawed.

You're saying I think "Nintendo is perfect" (which I don't) and I don't notice the change. Show me where the change is. Where has Nintendo SHOWN us they are changing the market to non-gamers? There's no evidence of that in the least so your argument doesn't hold water.

Now then in terms of ORIGINAL games, so what if Nintendo hasn't shown us many new IPs yet. They're getting out their sure fire hits for the holiday season and this is something the Wii needs. I would rather get the sequels now that I KNOW I will enjoy and then check out some new IPs later.

You're flip flopping your arguments and again I think your argument is still flawed to begin with. It's your own PERSONAL tastes that are the issue at hand, not the company. The company in the majority of the peoples eyes aren't doing wrong because we enjoy what has come and what is coming our way.

I respect your own opinion but your opinions =/= what is really happening at Nintendo.

Nintendo HAS release new IPs but they are 'non-games' so they don't count in your eyes and again that comes down to personal tastes. I, for example, loved Elite Beat Agents. I had fun with Nintendogs. Yet I still enjoy gamer games.

Again I respect your personal tastes but saying we think "Nintendo is perfect" so hence we are blind and wrong in our discussion is a fallacy. Just because you don't like the new IPs that Nintendo has or the sequels coming out does not mean Nintendo is shunning gamers.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Zack and Wiki is so non-gamer material. Not to mention you must be blind Ian because the 3rd party support is vastly superior to what it was on GC, with developers shipping more resoucres towards Wii every day. Your argument about what counts as hardcore or not is ridiculous as well, to even call Mario Galaxy a sequel is stupid beyond belief, giving it no credit for what it is revolutionizing. What about ::gasp:: N64, Nintendo released sequel after sequel, how EVIL of them. Tell me Ian, how many new IPs did third parties create for Wii? I can think of two off the top of my head, Monkey Ball and Crystal Chronicles. Dang that Capcom though, they were showing that people aren't hardcore and only cared about sequels, which is why they released RE4, that lame casual game.

[Requiem]

Guys/Gals, will you please take turns?

We can't have you all crapping in a thread at once!  

[Pittbboi]

Quote
Show me where the change is. Where has Nintendo SHOWN us they are changing the market to non-gamers? There's no evidence of that in the least so your argument doesn't hold water.

Not trying to argue FOR Ian here but this is ridiculous. There's PLENTY there to show concern for where Nintendo's going. The proof is in the games that are being released. YES, the end of this year is going to be great, all of Nintendo's big games are going to rock hard and there are a bunch of games between the cracks that are going to be great as well (Bwii immediately comes to mind). HOWEVER, these are ALL games that we have known about since last E3 and have wanted since the Wii was the Revolution, and many of these games were PUSHED back to make the end of this year rock as hard as it's going to. The Big 3 were never the cause of concern, because until Nintendo shows otherwise, they're just fulfilling their obligations with those games. Where, however, are the NEW game announcements (other than Mario Kart, which one could argue has always been a casual friendly game anyway)? What game has Nintendo announced at any point this year for the Wii that has a gamer slant? I don't remember them announcing any. Heck, if anything gamer games have been DISAPPEARING from their roster. HAMMER is canceled and, as I recall, Disaster was supposed to be released sometime later this year and yet there wasn't a DROP of info for it. Yet Nintendo's emphasis on non-gamers has only increased and their big celebratory wank-a-thon of an E3 show proved it.

Again, the sequels from Nintendo aren't the concern, and never were. But at the same time you can't use Nintendo's Big 3 to claim that Nintendo still cares about gamers and are going to continue care about gamers because, frankly, if Nintendo were to cancel THOSE games they'd be digging their own grave. It's the "What's next?" that's been bothering people. And unfortunately Nintendo hasn't shown AT ALL that they're going to be prioritizing gamers after this year, but there's loads of evidence to suggest that the non-gamer market is only going to become even more of a priority.

[Mashiro]

Yeah but E3 is entirely different now anyway. In fact aside from Sony (who has little to nothing really massive coming out in 07) both MS and Nintendo stuck to showing mainly what's coming our way this year.

There is still the GDC conference AND TGS to show off new stuff.

So while E3 may not have shown much of what is to come in 2008 in terms of gamer games. . . they haven't shown much for non-gamer games either outside of Wii Fit. So E3 as "evidence" doesn't really hold water.

What's important to remember is E3 is no longer THE be all end all show. It's timing this year was WAY later than previous and the size is now smaller. When you look at it logically it makes more sense for Nintendo or ANY of the companies for that matter to maybe save thier big guns for TGS which is only two months away.  

[Pittbboi]

Quote
Yeah but E3 is entirely different now anyway. In fact aside from Sony (who has little to nothing really massive coming out in 07) both MS and Nintendo stuck to showing mainly what's coming our way this year.

There was a difference between Nintendo and Microsoft's shows. Microsoft came right out at the beginning and SAID that all they were showing were games we'd be playing this year. People are just ASSUMING that Nintendo did the same because they really didn't show much and, in fact, the assumption is inaccurate because both Mario Kart and Wii Fit are not coming this year.

And E3 is only a different event if you listen to Nintendo. Both Sony and Microsoft (and pretty much everyone else) treated this year's E3 like any other--just much smaller and much more exclusive. E3 is not suddenly some completely different event with a completely different audience.

I'm not saying that Nintendo won't announce some new gamer game sometime in the future. Maybe they will. But THIS E3 (which is the point of this thread, afterall) was not at all an indication of that. So I don't think it's fair that those actually standing up and calling Nintendo out on a lackluster show, and showing concern for the future of Nintendo as far as gamers go are being blanket-labeled as nothing but baseless whiners. Nintendo failed to reassure the gamer with this year's E3. It's as simple as that, really.

[Mashiro]

I said "mainly" for the games being shown.

So what we're to assume that Nintendo ONLY has Wii Fit and Mario Kart coming out in 2008? Come on get real.

Edit: Again I think the show timing was way too late this year and now if the companies so choose they can wait another month or two to polish off their games to show at TGS or GDC.

[Pittbboi]

No, but the point is we don't know WHAT Nintendo's doing. But we DO know that since the Wii's hit big with non-gamers they're all Nintendo talks about. We also know that they canceled a game and shifted its resources to more casual titles. We know Nintendo's been on this huge kick to make all of their games "accessible".  Sure, it seems ridiculous, but Nintendo's strategy and focus has changed so much in the past few months that NOTHING's really out of the question. In 2008 who's going to receive most of Nintendo's attention, non-gamers or gamers? Everyday it's starting to seem like the answer to that is non-gamers. And what if that mentality spreads to our beloved franchises? And what if this marks the end of new gamer IPs from Nintendo? This year's E3 did nothing to alleviate those fears.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Actually Pittbboi you are wrong about MS, they did not take this E3 nearly as seriously as previous E3s, according to my source.