Author Topic: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled  (Read 21208 times)

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Offline Morari

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2010, 10:29:56 PM »
Game isn't better if I can't play it.

You own a PC, I'm assuming? Play it there in its full glory. Otherwise, you're simply limiting yourself by insisting that the Wii receive a gutted release.

That said, this limitation is pretty ridiculous. Certainly the Wii would be forced to have a limit simply due to the small amount of RAM, but 40mb is asinine. SD media is too slow to outright run the games off of. Perhaps we should have been given the ability to hook up USB hard drives instead? Regardless, it's becoming near impossible to defend the Wii anymore. Nintendo designs their systems for their games and doesn't care whether or not it's flexible enough for others. Hell, even most of Nintendo's own efforts have had pathetically tacked-on motion controls. Now they're setting their sights on 3D gimmicks? Yeah...
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Offline Guitar Smasher

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2010, 11:10:50 PM »
There's blame to go around to all parties.

Sure Nintendo could have designed the system to be capable of handling larger games.  But it can't be easy to guess what developers want to do several years down the road.  The best you can do is decide what kinds of games you picture being released, and decide what constraints will be necessary.  That said, I'm pretty confident this game could have been released, if the development was properly managed.

As for the development team, is this their very first project?  Constraints are a fact of life that every project is subjected to.  The spirit with which they aimed to make the game better and better should be applauded, but management should have kept them within their boundaries.  It doesn't matter whether you're an indie dev or a major player - selling the game is all that matters.  They've wasted a bunch of time and money; hopefully they learn from this experience.

What I find interesting is the outcry against Nintendo for not allowing a one-time size allowance.  I can understand how gamers are upset that they won't get to play the game, but think about the big picture.  How many devs would be pissed off if Nintendo did make this exception, when they wouldn't before?  For an industry that already has perceptions that Nintendo only does what's best for themselves, siding with a single developer over all others would only worsen the situation.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2010, 11:21:12 PM »
I'm not surprised to see such a passionate response to this news. It really sucks for Wii owners who have been waiting a long time to play Super Meat Boy on that platform. If you have the capability to play it on a different platform, do not hesitate to do so. It is a spectacular game that can be acquired for a ridiculously low price (even at the standard rate of $15, it's a steal).


The comparison to Super Mario All-Stars is, frankly, asinine. That game is rendered at 240i and upscaled to 480p by the Wii emulator. Super Meat Boy is a similarly expansive game with art assets rendered at 480p (and even higher on the HD platforms). The music is also quite a bit more complex; I don't know if it is already programmed in MIDI (with more channels and instruments than SNES could produce) or would have to be scripted in that format for WiiWare, which could be a very complex process. All-Stars was also coded by a huge team of veteran game developers at Nintendo, some of whom were probably involved in the hardware design. Team Meat is a tiny group of independent developers using stock Wii development kits. They are not necessarily experts in file size optimization, nor should such expertise be necessary in any reasonable development environment since the advent of disc-based media and digital distribution for a freaking 2D platformer.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2010, 02:29:29 AM »
They announced it as a WiiWare game, then bitched about it being too big but saying they would make it fit, now basically telling Wii owners "F*** you, we don't want to put the effort in". They knew the cap size but chose to ignore it because they thought Nintendo would give them (some third party developer that no one had even heard of before this game) permission to go above it.
It's unfair to say they didn't "put the effort in" because by all counts, they did everything to make their game the best it could be. I'm aware that the development team overstepped their boundaries due, in part, by poor management. However, they made the game the best they could and they shouldn't compromise their game just to fit a file size limit. That's something Nintendo would never do themselves so, in the interest of fairness, they shouldn't be imposing that on other developers. Of course, it's their system to do as they please but ultimately, the people who bought their console are losing out on a great game. This is less about who is to blame (though I would place it more on Nintendo's shoulders for reasons already stated) and more about Wii owners who don't get to play the game on the Wii.
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Microsoft is determined to take Sony down no matter what the cost, that is why they let Konami go up the cap limit on XBLA for the game.
Obviously. Who said that wasn't the reason? The point is that Microsoft increased the limit because there was no reason to impose it for a game that only helped their platform which inevitably means Microsoft makes more money. There was no downside to increasing the limit. In Super Meat Boy's case, Nintendo basically hands Microsoft a game that has a lot of positive buzz surrounding it. Who loses? Nintendo and Wii owners. How does that help Nintendo at all? Nintendo should want this game on their platform. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
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Offline Retro Deckades

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2010, 04:08:27 AM »
That's something Nintendo would never do themselves so, in the interest of fairness, they shouldn't be imposing that on other developers.

There was no downside to increasing the limit. In Super Meat Boy's case, Nintendo basically hands Microsoft a game that has a lot of positive buzz surrounding it. Who loses? Nintendo and Wii owners. How does that help Nintendo at all? Nintendo should want this game on their platform. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I have to agree with this. I am simply incapable of comprehending those who are blaming Team Meat for wanting to make a more robust game. If such a size limit were imposed on a game such as Zelda, I would not be at all happy to hear that Nintendo would have to downsize their grand vision into something much smaller.

I haven't seen Nintendo show nearly the interest Microsoft has in getting developers to make games for their service. Both are obviously driven by the all mighty dollar, but on Nintendo's side it's as though they just don't care -- they just want to sell a lot of dev kits, which I don't even think they make all that easy since you need to have a business address that is different from your residential address. That, coupled with the seemingly arbitrary file-size limit, can't help but make me think that Nintendo could deliver such games to Wii owners if they truly wanted to. The only time they seem to take an active role is when they can considerably profit from a release, such as publishing a game like Fluidity.


Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2010, 10:00:37 AM »
Team Meat knew the limit before they started the game and admit that they just ignored it on purpose, so it is easy to see why they are to blame. The Zelda team would develop the game knowing they had 8.7 GB to work with, Team Meat should have made the game for the 40 MB limit rather than be delusional and think Nintendo would let them go over (and this could have happened by asking Nintendo early on). That is fact, they were making this as a WiiWare game but chose to ignore the cap size.

Adrock, I was referring to them not wanting to put the effort to fitting it in 40 MB, especially since they had previously said they could do it (it would just feature less music).
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Offline Retro Deckades

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2010, 01:05:15 PM »
Team Meat knew the limit before they started the game and admit that they just ignored it on purpose, so it is easy to see why they are to blame.

The Zelda team would develop the game knowing they had 8.7 GB to work with

I cannot blame Team Meat for viewing the size limit as I do -- pointless and arbitrary. If they didn't think that it was simply some stupid regulation that has little to do with the limitations of the Wii, then why wouldn't someone think that it could possibly be removed? Nintendo's bull-headedness is nothing new (there is far more precedent there).

There are solutions which would have helped this, such as the previously mentioned hard drive, but in that case the Wii is basically the airport of consoles -- basic freedoms are being sacrificed for the sake of crazy levels of security.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Nintendo saying that when a game would have to exceed their hardware's limitations, then they begin to develop new hardware on which to run it. Unfortunately, Team Meat does not have this luxury.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 01:15:11 PM by OneTwenty »

Offline Adrock

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2010, 01:28:59 PM »
Adrock, I was referring to them not wanting to put the effort to fitting it in 40 MB, especially since they had previously said they could do it (it would just feature less music).
I get what you're saying, but it still makes no sense to me. The only reason the game went over 40MB (according to the internetz, the XBLA version is 90.4MB) is because Team Meat added a bunch of stuff and made a better game. You're basically saying, "Put even more effort into development by taking content out to make a shittier overall game." Then, people would be pissed off that Super Meat Boy is worse on WiiWare than it is on Xbox Live Arcade rather than being glad they even got the game. Even if you wanted the same 40MB game on both 360 and Wii, you're still asking for a shittier game.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2010, 08:10:46 PM »
The comparison to Super Mario All-Stars is, frankly, asinine. That game is rendered at 240i and upscaled to 480p by the Wii emulator. Super Meat Boy is a similarly expansive game with art assets rendered at 480p (and even higher on the HD platforms). The music is also quite a bit more complex; I don't know if it is already programmed in MIDI (with more channels and instruments than SNES could produce) or would have to be scripted in that format for WiiWare, which could be a very complex process.

First, you are, of course, welcome to your own opinion.  I do have to partially agree, that comparing a ~20 year old game to a current game is asinine.  It's asinine that the 20 year old game was, apparently, able to do things beyond what the current game can do.

But, beyond that - the pretty graphics and sounds are nice - but ultimately, game play is what matters.  Just as a good graphics or music won't make a bad game good, even the best graphics and music won't make an unplayable game playable.  If you've put so much focus into the graphics and sound development that your game can no longer be played, then you've obviously focused on the wrong area.

As for the music, it doesn't matter how "complex" it is - the musical tracks in the original Mario games are some of the most famous and most recognized tracks in video game history... which just goes to show that you don't need 40MB of space just for music to have great tracks to accompany your game.

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All-Stars was also coded by a huge team of veteran game developers at Nintendo, some of whom were probably involved in the hardware design. Team Meat is a tiny group of independent developers using stock Wii development kits. They are not necessarily experts in file size optimization, nor should such expertise be necessary in any reasonable development environment since the advent of disc-based media and digital distribution for a freaking 2D platformer.

I'll agree with this.  However, all this does is point out that the folks at Team Meat aren't "good enough".

Look, I think we can all pretty much agree that Nintendo's 40MB limit is either just bat-**** crazy (if it's an arbitrary limit that's not hardware based) or stupidly short-sighted (if it's hardware based) - but none of this changes the fact that Team Meat designed a WiiWare game that was beyond the limits of what WiiWare could do and are now sitting there scratching their heads wondering why Nintendo screwed them.

I'm going to build a house on my land that's bigger than my land and goes onto my neighbor's property.  I'm sure they won't mind - I'll wait until after I've designed it and started construction on it to ask them.

Except you can play it... just not on the Wii.
You own a PC, I'm assuming? Play it there in its full glory. Otherwise, you're simply limiting yourself by insisting that the Wii receive a gutted release.

If that's the case, why are we even having this conversation?  If the train of thought is "the game in on another system, go play it there", then it doesn't matter if Nintendo has a stupid 40 MB limit or anything else.

The fact is, "Super Meat Boy" cannot be played on the Wii - so adding more stuff to the game doesn't make it a better Wii game.  Period.  If you want better 360 or PC games, then sure, use the pros of those hardware setups to make your game better - for the 360 or the PC.  Don't design a 360 game to use the Wii Remote, then wonder why no one is able to play it.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2010, 11:33:33 PM »
But they weren't trying to make a WiiWare game; they were trying to make a game. Initially it was targeted at WiiWare, but it grew beyond what they could do there and so they focused on the platforms on which it would work. They weren't doing it for us, or for Nintendo; they were simply trying to make the best game they could. Stop portraying this as some kind of insult to Nintendo. It's not like Nintendo funded the development, or gave them a devkit for free. Team Meat owes Nintendo nothing, and they just did what they did because it was the best option available to them from a business and creative point of view. Stop taking it so personally.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2010, 11:38:51 PM »
They WERE trying to making a WiiWare game, just because they later decided to make more versions doesn't change that fact. It was designed to be a WiiWare game. They announced it as a WiiWare game, hyped it as a WiiWare game, promoted the hell out of it as a WiiWare game. Fans accepted it when they announced it would be ported to Xbox Live Arcade and PC since it was still for WiiWare, then then said a stripped down version would hit WiiWare, then all of a sudden they cancel it and announce that right from the beginning they ignored the limits of WiiWare. It's a insult to Wii owners and everybody who supported them since them since the beginning (especially since nobody had ever heard of them before this was announced for WiiWare).
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Offline Retro Deckades

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2010, 12:12:56 AM »
There seem to be two major points of contention here: That they originally announced/developed/hyped this game as a WiiWare game, and that Nintendo has a size limit of 40MB for games developed for WiiWare. If either of these conditions were removed, this thread wouldn't have garned the response that it has. However, removing one of them would make Wii owners much happier than removing the other (and this could be a happiness beyond Super Meat Boy).

Offline MegaByte

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2010, 12:19:00 AM »
Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based.  New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2010, 12:33:02 AM »
But they weren't trying to make a WiiWare game; they were trying to make a game. Initially it was targeted at WiiWare, but it grew beyond what they could do there and so they focused on the platforms on which it would work. They weren't doing it for us, or for Nintendo; they were simply trying to make the best game they could. Stop portraying this as some kind of insult to Nintendo. It's not like Nintendo funded the development, or gave them a devkit for free. Team Meat owes Nintendo nothing, and they just did what they did because it was the best option available to them from a business and creative point of view. Stop taking it so personally.

I'm not taking it as an insult to fans or Nintendo.  I'm just saying that the idea that 40MB isn't enough seems very weak to me - even more so considering what Nintendo did ~20 years ago with 1/20th of that space.

Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based.  New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.
Good point - however, is this something that's due to the nature of the program itself (i.e.: the fact that it's pretty much just a video)?
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Offline vudu

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2010, 02:28:47 PM »
It would have been nice of them to announce this when people still had a chance to buy it on sale on Steam for $3.75.

The game is back on sale for $3.75 (today only!).  Buy it now unless you already have it on XBLA.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2010, 03:41:32 PM »
Wow, Team Meat seems a little arrogant with some of their comments. I'm a little surprised that they would expect Nintendo to raise the WiiWare limit just for them (assuming they actually could, which I'm not convinced), that's just odd.

Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based.  New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.
Good point - however, is this something that's due to the nature of the program itself (i.e.: the fact that it's pretty much just a video)?
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

Offline Killer_Man_Jaro

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2010, 04:08:41 PM »
While I appreciate the difficulties Team Meat have had to work around, after playing a smidgeon of Super Meat Boy, I will say that it's a little surprising they are supposedly having so much trouble compressing their data. The graphical style is one of minimal detail and there doesn't seem to be many pieces in the soundtrack. There are WiiWare games which I feel are stronger in the visual and audio camp that clearly had no such problems. I suppose some programmers are better than others...
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Offline Dirk Temporo

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2010, 09:11:10 PM »
Compression is hard and not everybody is John Carmack.
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Offline TheBlackCat

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2010, 02:02:19 AM »
Sorry, personally I have absolutely zero sympathy for the developers.  I am no fan of the size limit, but you do not develop software for a system while totally ignoring the capabilities of that system.  I am frankly dumbfounded that even the most incompetent developers in the world could ignore something as simple as a file size limit for the game's entire development cycle.  The only possibilities here are that either the developers have no sense whatsoever, are extremely arrogant, or were never intending to release it on wiiware to begin with. 

Based on the interview, it seems it was the second.  The developers just assumed that Nintendo would bend to their whims.  If that is their attitude, then frankly they deserve to go out of business.  Game development is a business.  In a business some small-time provider can't just assume that distributors will break the rules for them, and any one that does deserves to be smacked down hard.  If I was Nintendo I would personally be tempted to deny their request just on principle.

Imagine a company was contracted to build crates for oranges.  The truck company, based on some totally arbitrary rule, decided years ago to only allow crates up to 3 ft square.  The company building the crates supplies crates 5 ft square, since they think it would be better to carry more oranges per crate.  The truck company refuses to carry the crates.  Should the company that hired the builders praise them for making crates that can't be used, or should they be fired?  Obviously any sane person would fire them for failing to take into account the constraints of the job.

To put it bluntly, the developers did not do their job.  They developed a game, from square one, that could not possibly be a wiiware game, yet they marketed it as one.  So I think the blame of their failure rests solely with them.  I don't like the size limit Nintendo has imposed, I think it is seriously hampering wiiware.  But that doesn't change the fact that the developers didn't do their job properly.

Sorry if I seem gruff here.  There are few things I can't stand, but one of them is a business that tries to make itself seem the victim for its own poor business decisions.  And frankly I see no other way to describe this.  They knew what they had to do, and they made a conscious decision, over a prolonged period of time, not to do it.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2010, 03:36:44 AM »
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel.  Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB.  Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?
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Offline Enner

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2010, 09:53:06 AM »
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel.  Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB.  Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?

I'd imagine they coded the program to efficiently stream video within the Wii's hardware capabilities. When I decide to skip around in a movie, Netflix has to buffer even if I only skipped a little.

Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2010, 01:04:58 PM »
To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel.  Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB.  Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?

I'd imagine they coded the program to efficiently stream video within the Wii's hardware capabilities. When I decide to skip around in a movie, Netflix has to buffer even if I only skipped a little.

It does the same thing when streaming on PS3, it has more to do with Netflix itself.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2010, 01:43:17 PM »
"...  They developed a game, from square one, that could not possibly be a wiiware game, yet they marketed it as one.  ...  They knew what they had to do, and they made a conscious decision, over a prolonged period of time, not to do it."

Truth.
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Offline KnowsNothing

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2010, 02:44:06 PM »
The developers thought that the 40 MB size limitation for Wiiware games was too strict.  Since they are not in the position to change Nintendo's policy internally, they decided to apply external pressure to the situation by making a great game that does not it within the (arbitrary) limitations.  I'm not sure Team Meat expected Nintendo to necessarily give them an exclusive exception, rather that they would change the policy for ALL developers.  If enough companies wish to release high profile downloadable games on the Wii that are over 40 MB, it's reasonable to expect Nintendo to change their policy because they stand to profit so much from changing the rules.

I also think that Team Meat must have spoken to someone at Nintendo who at least implied that the limitation could be changed at some point in development (probably early on).  That's just a hunch though.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2010, 03:30:57 PM »
they decided to apply external pressure to the situation by making a great game that does not it within the (arbitrary) limitations.

Everything I've read indicates that the limitation isn't as arbitrary as you seem to think it is.
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