Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

[BlackNMild2k1]

you forgot the Reggie game

[ThePerm]

galaxy 2 is a mod

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

DLC on a disc

[Stratos]

LOL @ Galaxy banter.

What kind of idea do you have for that Stratos?

The first thing I thought of was the one challenge in Star Fox Adventures where you're bravery is tested by raptors charging at you and you having to keep the view centered on an object and not looking away. It happened only once in the game and I recall it being really cool. I could see something like that playing out with the vitality sensor. Or maybe you need to register on the sensor at a certain level before an NPC will tell you a secret or give you an item. Maybe you could get ranked in a dungeon by how high or low your vitality rate is. There are lots of things you could do to enhance the experience.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"It happened only once in the game and I recall it being really cool."

I only paid attention to a stupid sliding bar.  I was hardly aware of anything cool happening around that.  I completed the task on my first try, then shouted "WHERE THE **** IS THE BOSS BATTLE??"

[Urkel]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm certainly looking forward to The Legend of Zelda: Something of Something. "Something" will benefit greatly from the MotionPlus controls.

[Adrock]

As much as I love the series, I have no reason to be excited about this game. We have Miyamoto's flip-flopping comments and one piece of art with an older looking Link and some stupid looking character that may or may not be the Master Sword. At this point, who cares? That's like being excited about Metroid Prime 4. What Metroid Prime 4? Exactly.

[ThePerm]

we all know Miyamoto has very little influence on Zelda nowadays, i think since Majora's Mask its been Aonuma's bitch.

[Urkel]

All I want out of the next Zelda is MotionPlus swordfighting. That's it. As long as they don't screw that up I'll be happy.

[Peachylala]

we all know Miyamoto has very little influence on Zelda nowadays, i think since Majora's Mask its been Aonuma's bitch.

With Yoshiaki Koizumi storytelling on the side. Both of them were what made Majora's Mask amazing.

[decoyman]

For all you guys poo-pooing (lol "poo-pooing") story, I guess I should clarify what I mean.

NPC-rambling and scrolling text cutscenes aren't the parts of "story" that I'm talking about... Rather, I mean the addition of cinematic/interactive/scripted events, too – Link's sister getting kidnapped in Windwaker, the boar-rider/bridge/duel scene in Twilight Princess, the Kafei/Anju saga in Majora's Mask... you guys would really be happier without those sorts of things in Zelda, and with "pure adventuring" instead?? Those were such memorable, exciting, epic parts of the game for me, and I'd go further and say that they're vital to modern Zelda. Good story-telling means I want to save Hyrule because of the emotional investment I develop with its inhabitants, and that emotional investment is one crucial element to creating a memorable gaming experience (or memorable book/movie/etc. for that matter). This is what made Majora's Mask feel so believable, so "human" to me, and is a big part of what makes me look back on it with such fondness – not the tight and engaging gameplay or puzzle-solving.

My issue with TP is that they do hardly any character development after a certain point in the game. IMO, it's at this point that the game loses its momentum, and—whether they realize it or not—is where I think many people began to find fault.

[Peachylala]

Twilight Princess's story fell apart after the first three dungeons. Midna was awesome, but then she became lame.
 
Heard it had alot to do with the fact that they switched writers midway through development.

[Luigi Dude]

Twilight Princess's story fell apart after the first three dungeons. Midna was awesome, but then she became lame.
 
Heard it had alot to do with the fact that they switched writers midway through development.

Yeah, Miyamoto shook up the staff in 2005 when he didn't like the direction the game was going.  From what it sounded like was the team was spending too much time focusing on the storyline and not enough on the gamplay which pissed off Miyamoto who then flipped the tea table.

Since Miyamoto has said gameplay comes first, storyline comes last, it's no surprise the writers would be the first to go if he was angry with a game.  This would explain why the storyline and character development just stops about halfway through the game.  Since they started development in 2004 and Miyamoto changed things up in 2005, that would be around the halfway point of development.

[broodwars]

So in other words, we have Miyamoto to thank for the one interesting aspect of Twilight Princess falling apart.  I'm increasingly glad that he's no longer steward of the Zelda series.

[TJ Spyke]

"One" interesting aspect? The story was one of the interesting parts, most of the game was great.

[BlackNMild2k1]

So in other words, we have Miyamoto to thank for the one interesting aspect of Twilight Princess falling apart.  I'm increasingly glad that he's no longer steward of the Zelda series.

Well if they had focused on the gameplay first, they could have finished their story all the way till the end of development. He has no one to blame but himself, and that's who we should blame too. If we didn't have Miyamoto to upend the tea table, we might have had our first The Legend of Final Fantasy.

[broodwars]

"One" interesting aspect? The story was one of the interesting parts, most of the game was great.

I used to think so as well, but I recently tried to replay it and just was bored out of my mind for most of the game.  Maybe it was the Zelda gameplay formula that has a stranglehold on the game, but I just could not get through the game.  It doesn't hold up, especially compared to something like Majora's Mask (which is what I played immediately after).

[BlackNMild2k1]

I couldn't finish it either as it just became unfun to play after a while.
That's why I think we should thank Miyamoto for geting them back to work on the gameplay, but too many aspects seem sort of like they knew where they were going at one point then got distracted with something else before coming back to finish it. So many parts just seemed uninspired to me.

[Luigi Dude]

So in other words, we have Miyamoto to thank for the one interestingaspect of Twilight Princess falling apart.  I'm increasingly glad thathe's no longer steward of the Zelda series.

Well if Aonuma had been more involved early on and not let the game get behind schedule, Miyamoto might not have stepped in to take over the project.

For the first half of Twilight Princess development, Aonuma was originally the producer of the game and there was a different director.  Well early on, Aonuma as a producer took a more hands off approach and let the new director try and do his own thing.  The problem is, the director he choose was not ready for a game of this size and so things didn't go to well.  Yeah the storyline of the game was coming alone nicely but the rest of the game was all over the place.  When Aonuma saw that everything was a mess he finally jumped in and tried to save the game before Miyamoto noticed.

Sadly for him it was too late, Miyamoto found out and was not pleased.  He got rid of the current director and demoted Aonuma from a producer back to a director and made him the new director of the game.  He then told Aonuma what he needed to focus on and forced him to get rid of things Miyamoto didn't like.  Not to mention from then on, anything Aonuma wanted to do with the game he had to get permission from Miyamoto first.


I'd imagine after what happened with Twilight Princess, for Zelda Wii Aonuma has been working his team like a slave driver from the beginning, trying to make sure he doesn't face Miyamoto's wrath again.

[Peachylala]

Luigi Dude, if you don't mind me asking, how do you learn these things?

And on the whole turmoils of Zelda TP, it's not surprising. You can see it in the game design, and the story and characters. It fell apart, but is Shiggy real to blame for being a slave driver?

At least, from the sound of it, Aonuma learned his lesson.

[mac<censored>]

It's very interesting... now I'm very curious what a pure-Aonuma Zelda will be like...

Not that I dislike the Miyamoto Zeldas but probably a game is better with one consistent direction.  TP in particular, is much more interesting in the early stages (first half?) with its much stronger narrative drive and characterization (compared to the latter part of the game, and indeed, compared to previous Zelda games).  What would it be like if he could finish the job...?

[I don't blame Miyamoto, btw -- he did what he had to do to get the game finished, and it's not like the result was bad, simply not what it might have been...]

[Luigi Dude]

Luigi Dude, if you don't mind me asking, how do you learn these things?

I just read a lot of the interviews with the people behind the games.  In the case of Twilight Princess, this section of the Ask Iwata interview really helped.

http://www.nintendo.com/wii/what/iwataasks/volume-5/part-5

This part in participle sums up what happened in 2005.

Iwata:  Miyamoto-san, when the decision to postpone the game's release was made, how did you feel about the Zelda game as it was at that point?

Miyamoto:  I thought it was enjoyable, but that it was really a long way from being ready! (laughs) When I thought about where we needed to focus our attention in the time we had left, my head started spinning.

Aonuma:  (Embarrassed laugh) But that was exactly the state things were in.

So yeah, it's pretty obvious what Miyamoto made everyone focus their attention on and what he got rid of. 

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It had to launch when it had to launch, right?

So we can gather it takes 5 years to make a robust, "next-generation" Zelda game.

[King of Twitch]

It had to launch when it had to launch, right?

So we can gather it takes 5 years to make a robust, "next-generation" Zelda game.

Hey.. goat pens aren't going to make themselves:

Miyamoto:

What else was there… Ah yes, we already talked a little about the goat-throwing section, but to continue from that, there are a pre-determined number of goats that appear in the game. When I found out the reason for this, I was quite speechless! (laughs) The way it works is, there's an event where Link has to round up a certain number of goats. The number of goats isn't determined by the event's difficulty, but instead by the number that can fit into the pens in the barn!

All:
(laughter)

Aonuma:
The number of places in the barn was set and that dictated the total number of goats we could have…

Miyamoto:
I spoke to the director about why we couldn't have a larger number, but he told me that it wouldn't be possible because there were only twenty-four spaces in the barn! (laughs) Also, in early versions of the game, Link couldn't even enter the barn.

Iwata:
So, you couldn't even see the number of pens?

Miyamoto:
Precisely! (laughs) What were you thinking, limiting the number of pens! But in the end, Link became able to enter the barn.

Aonuma:
And from time to time when the goats escape, you can now go into the barn and check to see how many of the pens are empty. That's the kind of detail the team spent their time implementing! (laughs)

Miyamoto:
Nobody's going to check anyway! (laughs) There were many points like this throughout the game.

Aonuma:
That's true. Before we knew it, all these details were already in the game!

[Adrock]

My 2 main problems with storytelling in modern videogames:

1. Long unskippable cutscenes

2. Infodumping

Think about cutscene/dialog heavy games. How much of that information do you really need? Alternatively, a game like Metroid Prime did a pretty good job of offering a deeper storyline without forcing the backstory on players. Much of the story was optional and sometimes you had to go a little out of your way to find the Lore. I think that approach could work in Zelda. Many of the optional sidequests are unimportant to the plot. I collected all those f-ing bugs in Twilight Princess for a character who had no bearing on the story whatsoever. Let me go on a sidequest that tells me something about Hyrule's past, something that doesn't necessarily move the story forward, but fleshes out the world.