Topic: Episode 304: Don't Blame Games

[S-U-P-E-R]

DBG, hollaaaaaa!!

[Sarail]

Those DBG guys are JERKS.

[Pandareus]

DBG? What does that even refer to?

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.

Indeed. Jon read that line really low but really weird and that was my attempt to keep that in while not amplifying his voice (which would have missed the point) and not have the music drown him out.

[Ceric]

Tell me in your own word during that play through what were you actually doing with the controls?  Where you doing gunplay, melee fighting,moving, conquering the mountain, interacting with the environment?  Give it to me in percentages.

I don't think I could give it to you in percentages (the balance of the game changes so dramatically over the course of the game), but Cursed Mountain is essentially a 3rd person shooter at its core, more Silent Hill than modern Resident Evil, with elements of the Fatal Frame series. You're

- running through 3D environments w/ an auto-camera
- scaling mountain walls (using remote & nunchuk waggling to speed the process up)
- occasionally pushing spirits away at close range with waggle
- blasting spirits with energy from ice your ice pick from a fixed 3rd person perspective with the Wiimote pointer (the Nunchuk stick controlling the camera). So yeah, combat is largely 3rd person shooter with enemies that like to teleport around and sneak up on you, necessitating a lot of camera turning.
- performing finishers on enemies using a series of motion control gestures that are finicky at best due to how the game reads them (using the IR sensor rather than the gyroscopes, which the game never tells you).
- performing similar gestures on symbols in the environment to release seals.
- using the Wiimote to "balance" your way across a handful of small "beams" in the environment (which is actually pretty simple, so it's not really an issue compared to the nightmare it is in Skyward Sword).
- If you have the Wiimote speaker turned on (I didn't, except once to test this), you get radio messages and "climber's logs" out of the speaker, which sound like crap because the Wiimote speaker is such.

So you can honestly tell me with a straight face you prefered RE4 GC over RE4 Wii.

No, I definitely prefer the Wii version there, but it's also a game where enemies move extremely slowly so it's easy to line up your shot.  It's also a game where you CAN'T move while aiming so there wouldn't be the usual benefits to dual stick control.  I also greatly prefer having an actual reticule on-screen to a laser sight.

One of these days, actually, I'm going to get to playing Resident Evil 5 on my PS3 with the Move.  I'm curious to see how that game plays with pointer control considering that was a dual analog shooter originally.

Sounds like most of your problems wouldn't have been fixed with Dual Analog controls but with using buttons instead of gestures.

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

[Lithium]

DBG? What does that even refer to?

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.

Indeed. Jon read that line really low but really weird and that was my attempt to keep that in while not amplifying his voice (which would have missed the point) and not have the music drown him out.

i thought it was a comedic pause because he was mumbling

[ejamer]

...

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

 

[broodwars]

...

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

 

I was telling him on Twitter that the way my situation is at my house, my game consoles are set up in my bedroom with everything sitting on a metal desk with glass shelves.  As I tend to play massively-long adventure games or RPGs the most, my most common way to play them is lying right down on my bed, with the TV angled to face me (the sensor bar sitting on the edge of the desk in front of the TV at the same angle).  That, to me, is the most comfortable way to play games, and it's where I'm most relaxed.

To play pointer or motion control-based games with this setup, I have to elevate my arm at roughly a 30 degree angle and keep that arm held up for more or less the duration of the game.  Otherwise, I just have to play sitting straight up or lie at an angle where my right arm is propping the rest of my body up at an angle (which is coincidentally how I type), which is not altogether unusual for Wii games.  Either way, it's not a pleasant experience for me playing these types of games.  By contrast, I can play games with a traditional controller pretty much any way I want.  I can play them lying down and with my arms at rest.  I could move the sensor bar somewhere lower or more convenient to point, but then it wouldn't be near the thing I'm supposed to be pointing AT (the TV) and that kind of defeats the point of a pointer device.   :   You pretty much just proved my point, Ceric. 

If I have to change the entire orientation of my room and my furniture to make these games work better, they obviously have disadvantages compared to my usual playing style.  There are certain advantages and a certain appeal to motion controlled games, but the vast majority of the time I'll take the way of experiencing them where I can just relax and enjoy the experience.  It's just personal preference.

[Ceric]

...

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

 

I was telling him on Twitter that the way my situation is at my house, my game consoles are set up in my bedroom with everything sitting on a metal desk with glass shelves.  As I tend to play massively-long adventure games or RPGs the most, my most common way to play them is lying right down on my bed, with the TV angled to face me (the sensor bar sitting on the edge of the desk in front of the TV at the same angle).  That, to me, is the most comfortable way to play games, and it's where I'm most relaxed.

To play pointer or motion control-based games with this setup, I have to elevate my arm at roughly a 30 degree angle and keep that arm held up for more or less the duration of the game.  Otherwise, I just have to play sitting straight up or lie at an angle where my right arm is propping the rest of my body up at an angle (which is coincidentally how I type), which is not altogether unusual for Wii games.  Either way, it's not a pleasant experience for me playing these types of games.  By contrast, I can play games with a traditional controller pretty much any way I want.  I can play them lying down and with my arms at rest.  I could move the sensor bar somewhere lower or more convenient to point, but then it wouldn't be near the thing I'm supposed to be pointing AT (the TV) and that kind of defeats the point of a pointer device.   :   You pretty much just proved my point, Ceric. 

If I have to change the entire orientation of my room and my furniture to make these games work better, they obviously have disadvantages compared to my usual playing style.  There are certain advantages and a certain appeal to motion controlled games, but the vast majority of the time I'll take the way of experiencing them where I can just relax and enjoy the experience.  It's just personal preference.

You can use a mouse.  You don't need the Pointer pointing at the TV.  You should always adjust you environment to suit your needs if you can.  This is much like putting the toilet paper where you have to stand up walk 2 steps to get it from the toilet.

[ejamer]

Dual analog controls don't work. I keep trying use dual analog controlers with one hand because we've got a newborn that needs to be held with my other arm. But there are a bunch of great Wii games I can play one-handed, so it's obviously a better control scheme.
...
Or maybe I'm just using one unusual circumstance to justify my position, even when it's hardly the norm.  You decide.


Either way, it will be hard to trust negative comments from you about motion/pointer controls after that story. When problems are discussed, my first reaction is to wonder whether fault lies with the hardware, software, or user? One part of that equation is looking more suspect than ever...

[NeoStar9X]

With the Wii U GamePad, you could use dual analog for most movement and broad aiming, and use the pointer for fine adjustments. Just sayin'.

I honestly couldn't tell if you were being serious or not when you said this. Using the remote to point at the screen while your left or right hand is free to hold the nunchuck is very different from using the big gamepad to point at the screen either by holding it so it's flat or perhaps using  the screen as a crosshair. Both of those ways with the gamepad is simply not comfortable or even practical for a fast paced game. I see it used in Zombi U but I even question how effective that will be unless you are in a position to really take your time.

I don't think people have an issue with getting used to dual analog nor do I think the question was even talking about having a concern when it came to playing Assassin's Creed 3 or any other non-FPS with analog controls but specifically talking about first person shooters and a concern that pointer controls wouldn't be there because all these other games would now be on the Wii U. Perhaps I'm wrong and need to go back and listen even more closely but that's how I took the question and recall being annoyed about the turn the conversation took. At least that's the direction the answer took.

For a lot of people when it comes to the FPS genre it is a big deal.  For some dual analog is just not a good control scheme. The best is naturally keyboard and mouse and the Wii pointer with nunchuck is as close as you are going to get at the moment on a console. No need to aim assist. Where you aim is where you shoot. Turning and the general speed is also not a problem at all once you get settings to your liking by shrinking the bounding box (or get rid of it. It's the area your pointer on screen moves around in before you hit the edge and you start to turn), up the turn speed, change where the edge of the screen is, etc. The Wii versions of Call of Duty, Conduit series and Goldeneye provide plenty of options to allow you to  react on a dime with far more accuracy then dual analog controllers without the aim assist.

I would suggest doing a quick for videos of the Wii versions of Call of Duty. In fact here are a few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX--PcrY1vM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shAscz2PULo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IneLgjDfShs

All done with the Wii remote and nunchuck.

I understand everyone has their personal preference but there are no limitations with pointer controls when it comes to FPS. Those that prefer analog controls always seem to be quick to dismiss pointer controls as if there is something wrong with it. That there aren't enough buttons for example, or that you can't turn quickly, etc  but that has not been a problem at all for the Call of Duty games. Of all the problems the Wii versions had how it controlled was never one of them. Yet they always want to ignore the limits of dual analog.


If the Wii has shown anything it's that dual analog controls should not simply be accepted for all genres. Pointer controls for shooting is simply more efficient and accurate. There is a reason why people call the Wii version of Resident Evil 4 as the definitive version. Why even with classic controller support the majority of players continue to use the Wii remote and nunchuck when it comes to FPS on the Wii. Why strategy games like Dawn of Discovery and RUSE (on the PS3) can be so enjoyable and be controlled as if you were using a mouse. Sure it doesn't work for all genres. I don't like playing Super Mario Galaxy with the pointer. I rather have a controller in both hands. However if there is a new Metroid Prime and when it comes to Black Ops 2 the deal breaker for me would come down to pointer controls or the lack of them do to he fast paced nature of the games.


Sorry. This went on longer then I expected and became a bit more ranty then I'd like but dismissing of pointer controls always bothers me.

[broodwars]

Or maybe I'm just using one unusual circumstance to justify my position, even when it's hardly the norm.  You decide.

Having a gaming system in your bedroom is hardly abnormal. My PS3 serves a dual-purpose as my Blu Ray player, so this setup works fine for me for both purposes.  I used to have my Wii hooked up in a living room-type setting with a couch in my old apartment, but honestly I don't enjoy the couch experience very much so when I moved I put the Wii back in with the rest of my systems where it belongs.  Wii games are certainly playable in this state.  Wiimote carpal tunnel sets in quicker than perhaps it would on a couch, but the experience is generally the same.

You have to love the internet, though. Only here can someone else tell you that the way you are most comfortable gaming is wrong.  And all that I have said is how I most enjoy games and how in my experience one control style works best for me, a subject on which I don't give a damn what you think.  If you like using pointer/motion controls for your games, fine. Good for you.  Just don't make me use them if I don't want to.  As I've said constantly on this site, I'm all about letting the player decide how they want to play. I'm just loving the irony of the pointer/motion fans being in the same boat this coming generation that traditional control fans were in this last one. 

And before you presume to tell me how my experiences are invalid, I've worked on a Wii development team as a QA tester.  I've used that remote every conceivable way known to man as part of my job, and I'm more than familiar with what it is and is not capable of (and what it is, and is not, good at) probably more than most on this site.

[ejamer]

The way you game isn't wrong. But it's not the same as me, and different in a way that causes you to have a different end user experience. I can totally understand how gaming lying down would change opinions about how well suited motion/pointer controls are to many types of games. But I don't game lying down.

Knowing that your gaming experience isn't the same as mine, and knowing that it biases your comments in a negative way, how can I not take your future comments about controls with a grain of salt?  Maybe you played the game sitting up, maybe not.

But hey, congrats on that QA experience. I guess that makes you a  resident expert about what people will/won't enjoy? Surely being exposed to what Wii couldn't do as part of your daily grind didn't change the way you view the system - you know, QA is probably all fun and games right? Thanks for cluing me in even further just how far removed your experience is from mine.


(Again, none of this invalidates your opinions or experiences. But it clarifies to me that they are so different from mine that our opinions won't be of any use to each other - almost certainly going both ways. Also, don't take something you read online so personally. Life is way too short for that.)

[leahsdad]

I've got to throw my hat in with the pointer /anti-dual stick party.   Aim assist just sucks.  Imagine playing a 2D Mario platformer where EAD doesn't trust you to accurate stomp on Goombas, so they implement something like that stupid Sonic lock-on system.   To me, that is about how joy-sucking aim assist is in FPS's.

[Jonnyboy117]

The Listener Mail question wasn't about whether dual analog is better or worse than pointer controls; our discussion devolved into that at times (mostly between Guillaume and Jon), and I'm a little sad to see the Talkback comments mostly focused on that silly debate. As I literally said on the show, people have their own preferences, and I hope both options will be supported by Wii U games. No, developers won't be forced to support one or the other. Some won't bother. What exactly do you propose is the solution to this quandary? Nintendo could force developers to include pointer support, but I think this would just result in lazy implementation of the feature, or games just not being released on the system.

[Plugabugz]

Personally, i want to be given the choice. One is not better than the other, although forcing one for no particular reason can cause problems if not done right.

Options is good.

I remember having to shake the remote in Sonic and the Secret Rings so hard for Sonic to respond it gave me headaches. It remains unfinished.

DBG? What does that even refer to?

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.

Indeed. Jon read that line really low but really weird and that was my attempt to keep that in while not amplifying his voice (which would have missed the point) and not have the music drown him out.

i thought it was a comedic pause because he was mumbling

Yes. The sultry man tones of Jon Lindemann. How could you think he was mumbling?

[TJ Spyke]

Both are fine with me. There are games that use pointer controls good and those that don't, just as there are games that use dual analog well and those that don't. I lie both options and I agree that it would be nice for games to offer both so I can choose.

[Ceric]

The Listener Mail question wasn't about whether dual analog is better or worse than pointer controls; our discussion devolved into that at times (mostly between Guillaume and Jon), and I'm a little sad to see the Talkback comments mostly focused on that silly debate. As I literally said on the show, people have their own preferences, and I hope both options will be supported by Wii U games. No, developers won't be forced to support one or the other. Some won't bother. What exactly do you propose is the solution to this quandary? Nintendo could force developers to include pointer support, but I think this would just result in lazy implementation of the feature, or games just not being released on the system.

It was the hottest topic in the Episode. 
Rhythm Thief I'm on record talking about already.
We could talk about the Wiimote Nunchuk controls on MHTri.  Those were good if you understood them.
I'm still surprised that Jon didn't have a Gameboy.
Here we go here something from the episode that might work.  Unskippable talking.

That is really annoying especially in someplace the developer know you will be back to many many times.  In WoW the whole last tier was more story driven which is fine, except don't make me sit through a 3-5 minute monologue in content I've ran daily or weekly for a couple months now.  I don't mind you forcing me to listen through it the first or even the 2nd time but, after that just let me skip it.  You know I'm going to be in here many times so why are you annoying me with these not really even that interesting to re-experience scenes when I have other stuff I need to do.  What often happens is this becomes Bio time so what was a 3-5 minute dialog become a 5-15 minute of waiting.  There is something wrong when I can clear through the first boss trash and all faster then the forced scene.  Its not even a cutscene.  Its just forced monologuing.

Another thing when you are escorting an NPC and you can easily get ahead of them by just walking and you have to confirm your ready when you get there for the love of the Great Murloc just make them go as fast as the player.  Yes, I understand they should be going slower in a Defense Escort scenario but not story kibble.

[Jargon]

To be fair and give some context to my letter, I wanted to post the exact quote from Jonny I was referencing (found at about 1:18 of Episode 302:

"The Wii U Gamepad does everything a Wii remote can do and more.  So, there are no games coming out at launch or probably ever that won't work with the Wii U Gamepad."

So he didn't actually say that he hoped all games were Wii U Gamepad compatible but I inferred it from the context of his comments in that segment and the fact that he didn't seem to have any problem with what he considered to be the probable future.  I think it was a fair inference, but I wanted to come clean that, thanks to misremembering, my paraphrasing wasn't 100% accurate.  Sorry about that.

[Hey Einstein!]

FOR GOODNESS SAKE LINDERMAN!
buy a freakin Gameboy