Topic: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.

[Ian Sane]

  That's actually why I'm worried that Nintendo went with a graphics solution for 3DS that doesn't support OpenGL ES 2.0, the current industry standard that all other modern mobile platforms support. Instead, they have a proprietary shader system, which bit them in the ass on GameCube and Wii. Granted, it's a lot better than the system used on those consoles, but it still makes for extra work.

Nintendo probably went with that shader because that's what THEY are used to.  That's the problem.  When the Wii was revealed that talked about how easy it was to develop for because it used the same architecture as the Gamecube.  Well that's all fine in bizarro world where the Gamecube was a huge success but in the real world this was of significance to no one except Nintendo.  If Nintendo was truly interested in attracting third party support they would have to be willing to potentially make things more difficult for themselves if it would make things easier for everyone else.  For them to do such a thing would require a significant change in their attitude.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Here is a reason for Nintendo to get with the program and make sure their hardware is compliant with Dev/Pub needs and wants.

http://www.gaming-age.com/news/2011/3/17-29

Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment today announced a long-term studio-wide license agreement with Epic Games to use the award-winning Unreal Engine 3.

The development software will be available for any team developing a Warner-published game across PC, console and mobile platforms and, through 2014, will be the exclusive game engine used on projects being developed by Rocksteady Studios who are currently working on Batman: Arkham City and developed the critically acclaimed hit Batman: Arkham Asylum for WBIE/DC Entertainment, and NetherRealm Studios, the team behind award-winning Mortal Kombat franchise for WBIE.

If this is a trend that starts to catch on, then Publishers will be streamlining by using 1 middleware across all studios so that if a project gets shifted around, everyone will be up to speed on the dev tools. If your hardware is not compatible, then your hardware will likely not be a priority or just not supported.

[TJ Spyke]

I don't like the idea of one middleware engine being used so much, it starts screaming monopoly to me.

[broodwars]

I don't like the idea of one middleware engine being used so much, it starts screaming monopoly to me.

Or maybe it's just a tool that's easy to use and most developers know how to program for, making it a good general-use platform.  It's not like there aren't other engines out there, and with rising development costs developers probably feel the need to stick with what they know how to use.  People scream "monopoly" way too easily, especially since the Unreal Engine has issues that make it unfavorable for all game types (such as texture draw-in issues, save seemingly for Bulletstorm).

[Chozo Ghost]

Nintendo has not made HD games so they run the risk of being ignorant of important things.

How is HD an important thing?

As for everything else you said in your post: Nintendo doesn't need experience in all that stuff. Nintendo contracts companies like IBM and Nvidia and so on to manufacture the various chips and components. Nintendo makes the hardware, but they do not make the various individual components that make up that hardware. Other companies do, and they are the ones who have the know how. You don't have to know squat as long as you have the money to hire someone who does.

[BlackNMild2k1]

You can't forget that Nintendo tells them what specification to aim for and what price points it needs to meet.

Specs to meet HD specifications just wasn't a priority to Nintendo so those are not specs that we got.

[Ian Sane]

How is HD an important thing?

I mostly mean "HD" in the general buzzword term to describe today's cutting edge videogame hardware.  It's important to not have glorified last gen hardware again obviously.
 
But realistically HDTV support is absolute necessary today.  They don't even sell TVs without it anymore.  If they ignored that it would be like if they released the N64 and it only supported coaxial output.
 
Regarding that middleware "monopoly" my concern would be more that too many games would look the same.  That would be kind of lame.  But with development costs as high as they are having something to cut down on development like that would probably have a more positive effect.  But it isn't a monopoly if people can create their own graphics engines if they wish.
 
Realistically this is how it works in the software industry.  There are all sorts of development tools that developers use just to be efficient.  A couple of those tools become really popular and successful.  They don't have a monopoly but if you can make the software you want to make with those tools it just financially makes sense to use them.  Re-inventing the wheel every time isn't cost effective.

[Chozo Ghost]

I don't think most consumers even care about HD (I certainly don't). If its there, fine; if its not, meh. It doesn't have any impact on the quality of the gameplay itself. Now, things like A.I. and number of enemies allowable on screen and things like that which demand RAM and processing power, now that's something that does impact gameplay and it is something I care about. That is something I think the Wii's successor will address and I believe that it will. I'm sure HD support will come at the same time.

In 2006 when the Wii first launched the HD age was just starting and few people had HD tvs at the time. Heck, I wonder if the majority of consumers even have HD tvs now. Standard TVs can last for decades, and there are many people who would only buy a new TV if their old one died. Its not like a large screen tv is cheap. If someone already owns a large screen standard definition TV they may not want to spend $3,000 on a new HD one. To many people the size of the screen is probably more important than its resolution.

[BranDonk Kong]

SDTVs no longer exist. Everyone cares about HD now, and HD was booming when the Wii was launched. It wasn't nearly at the state that it is now, but it was undoubtedly expanding rapidly, since SDTVs were no longer being manufactured (at least not on a grand scale) in 2006 either. There's no need to spend $3000 on a new TV either, you can get an amazing television with a huge screen (say, 50") for like $800 now.

[Oblivion]

Uh, yes they do. I just bought one at my local Kmart.

[Ymeegod]

Odd, everyone considers the PSP a failure yet when you do it be numbers it's actually more successful than I don't know--the N64, Gamecube, ect.  In face it sold more than those two combined.  It's at 66 million units sold which is more than Xbox 360 and the PS3.  Sure the DS outsells it nearly 2.5 to 1 but it's still sold a bucket of units. 

What kills the PSP is my opinion was Sony couldn't produce enough quality hits thoughout the year--there's maybe two worthwhile titles thoughout the year.  NGP fixes is by having similar hardware kits to the PS3 which allows developers to cut down developement time considerable so I there's shouldn't be "droughts" this time around.

As for pricing, Sony still haven't announced a price structure yet so it might be lower than everyone predicts but even if you go with the $400 est price tag it's still going to sell highly thoughout Japan during the first year or so and then it's going drop just like every system.  Nintendo's could have easily priced the 3DS higher considering what it's reselling for now on Ebay and whatnot.  There's so many early adopters that both Sony and Nintendo will not be able to meet demand anyhow.

The handheld market is by far the largest gaming market especially in Japan and I think it's going actually increase as we move forward.  The only thing I think Sony messed up on was the what PSP phone--they should just shitcan that altogether and add a smart phone option to NGP.

Would I buy a $500 NGP phone?  Hell yeah, right now I'm looking at a Droid without a contract at $400.  Think about it, you'll get all the use as a smart phone but a handheld gaming unit? Score. 

[BlackNMild2k1]

I believe the N64 & GC were more profitable though (I think, but I have no numbers to back that up nor did I look for them).

[Chozo Ghost]

PSP hardware may sell; PSP software is a different story.

The N64 had a lot of multi-million selling game titles that are still remembered fondly today. All the PSP has is Monster Hunter and watered down ports. The fact of the matter is many people who bought a PSP only did so because of how easy the system is to mod. One can hack it and use it to pirate games without any hardware modifications whatsoever. That's what makes the hardware appealing to own for some, but the software sales don't match up.

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/43562/Whats-the-main-lesson-Sony-learnt-from-the-PSP

"With PSP we went on the assumption that if we took a successful home console game experience and applied it wholesale to a portable device, that that was a great route to success,” he says.

"What we learnt in the course of the PSP is that consumers want a different experience. Even if it is the same franchise. That was a huge piece of learning that really informed the design of NGP. Take the best of the console experience but give people something that is different that they can only get with that device, on-the-go.”

More stuff from SCEE's Andrew House (I might add more quotes)
http://www.mcvuk.com/features/894/INTERVIEW-Andrew-House

[TJ Spyke]

SDTVs no longer exist. Everyone cares about HD now, and HD was booming when the Wii was launched. It wasn't nearly at the state that it is now, but it was undoubtedly expanding rapidly, since SDTVs were no longer being manufactured (at least not on a grand scale) in 2006 either. There's no need to spend $3000 on a new TV either, you can get an amazing television with a huge screen (say, 50") for like $800 now.

Even in 2006 SDTV's were very common. Now though it is indeed hard to find one in most retail stores.

[Chozo Ghost]

It may be hard to buy a new SD TV, but like I said they tend to last for decades so many people don't have an immediate need to buy a new TV. When they do buy a new TV odds are its going to be HD, but who knows how long it will take before that happens?

[Shaymin]

I've had the same 27" CRT in my apartment since 2002. I don't intend to replace it any time soon, largely due to financial reasons + the fact that I mainly use it for Wii play at this point.

[TJ Spyke]

When I bought my HDTV in 2008, I basically needed to. My old TV was a crappy 14 inch RCA TV that I had since 1994.

[Chozo Ghost]

Older stuff follows more simplistic design and therefore tends to last longer than newer stuff. Do you want something with more bells and whistles, or do you want something that will last for the long haul?

[Ian Sane]

  It may be hard to buy a new SD TV, but like I said they tend to last for decades so many people don't have an immediate need to buy a new TV. When they do buy a new TV odds are its going to be HD, but who knows how long it will take before that happens?

You could have made the same argument for the SNES.  "Why does it need to support A/V cables when most people still have TV's that can only handle coaxial and will continue to have this for years?"  It just doesn't make sense to completely ignore the TV standards available in stores right now.  It isn't like the PS3 and Xbox 360 ONLY work on HDTVs.  I don't have an HDTV so I hook my PS3 up with standard A/V cables.  All this really is is an option.
 
We got the same sort of luddite argument with the Gamecube and online gaming.  "Well there are a lot of people that still don't have access to fast internet."  Well why should those of us who do have it, which is everybody not living the sticks, not be given the option?  It wasn't like if Mario Kart was online everyone without fast internet could get nothing from the game.  But instead we ALL were forced to go without.  Much like online with the Gamecube the timing of the systems release was at a crossroads.  It was at the time where the new technology wasn't quite widespread but it was clearly going to become the standard in the next few years well within the life time of the system.
 
I knew when the Wii launched that HDTV was here to stay.  It was like Nintendo was six months off of SDTVs disappearing from the market place.  They weren't thinking about the future at all.  It was like, right now today, we don't need this, two years from now be damned.
 
Their decision to stay put, plus the decision to not go with online gaming on the Gamecube, is what ultimately creates the general fear that the Wii 2 will remain a generation behind.  The Wii isn't truly a one-off.  The Cube might have had up-to-date specs but their refusal to go online was one generation behind.  The N64 is a pretty good behind-the-times console too.  For three consoles in a row Nintendo has been incredibly conservative to the point where their decisions came across as incredibly short sighted and out-of-touch.  The Wii is very much a product of its time in a bad restrictive way where it was something that reflected that exact moment but not even a year later.  The Wii was designed for 2006 and maybe 2007 but certainly not 2009 and beyond.  If we follow this trend then the Wii 2 will be a product of 2012 specifically for 2012 but ill-suited for 2014.  Nintendo has to make something for something for 2016 and release it 2012.
 
And the funny thing is that back at the start with the NES, Nintendo specifically wanted something cutting edge that could last for years.  If today's Nintendo designed the NES it would have been the Atari 7800.

[Chozo Ghost]

It isn't like the PS3 and Xbox 360 ONLY work on HDTVs.

That also works the other way around as well. Its not like the Wii ONLY works on SDTVs. You can plug a Wii into any HDTV and it will work just fine. It isn't incompatible.

I don't have an HDTV so I hook my PS3 up with standard A/V cables.

Then even if the Wii did have HD support you would see no difference with it whatsoever, so why do you care?

Their decision to stay put, plus the decision to not go with online gaming on the Gamecube, is what ultimately creates the general fear that the Wii 2 will remain a generation behind.  The Wii isn't truly a one-off.  The Cube might have had up-to-date specs but their refusal to go online was one generation behind.

What are you talking about? Nintendo released an official LAN adapter and modem for the Gamecube that enabled online play. This was an official Nintendo product. Granted, there was only one game which supported online, but the option was there at least. That means the Gamecube was really no different than the PS2 in terms of online capability. Now support is a different story, but you need to blame the third parties for that becasue they had the option of having online games on the GC but they just refused to support it. Hell, they refused to support the GC with offline games also for the most part... How the hell is that Nintendo's fault?

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't have an HDTV so I hook my PS3 up with standard A/V cables.

Then even if the Wii did have HD support you would see no difference with it whatsoever, so why do you care?

Because sometimes some people just can't be happy unless they have something to bitch about.

and I include myself in that statement.

[MegaByte]

What's worse is that they don't mandate 480p output compatibility, which means that several games don't work on my monitor. And the fact that they removed digital AV that even the GameCube had, necessitating more expensive converters with lower quality output.

[Kytim89]

Older stuff follows more simplistic design and therefore tends to last longer than newer stuff. Do you want something with more bells and whistles, or do you want something that will last for the long haul?

My 1986 Chvy Cavalier and 1985 Chevy Blazer are still going strong.

[ymeegod]

"The N64 had a lot of multi-million selling game titles that are still remembered fondly today. All the PSP has is Monster Hunter and watered down ports. The fact of the matter is many people who bought a PSP only did so because of how easy the system is to mod. One can hack it and use it to pirate games without any hardware modifications whatsoever. That's what makes the hardware appealing to own for some, but the software sales don't match up"

LOL, in a way you countered your own agruement?  The reason the PSP software sales are so low is the same damn reason the DC was--priating.  The DS has the same issue especially stateside.  Every event I attend too I find less and less people owning any bit of software, and one reason why mature rated games on the WII don't sell. 

Still going by the charts, N64 had 50 games that sold a million, right now the PSP has 42 games that sold a million (and that doesn't count PSN downloads).  I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass the N64 by the end of this year.

Nintendo's always made money and yeah it's profits are high but the PSP was still in the green meaning it's still making a profit hense NGP.  By your standards there can only be one success but in my opinion Sony entered the market with the PSP with 0 shares of the market and Nintendo donimated it, now it grabbed 30%.  Clearly nintendo noticed and why we're getting the 3ds so soon.  Nintendo wants it's pie all to themshevles.