Topic: DS Gripes

[mouse_clicker]

I dunno- if a group of message board rats are able to come up with a bunch of interesting ideas, why can't he? And why is his company offering something with supposedly new and original gameplay on the PSP when it's nothing more than a souped up GBA? The DS has everything the PSP has and then some- I find it hypocritical of him to say they CAN'T think of any good ideas on the DS but CAN think of good ideas on the PSP. I don't think he has a legitimate base at all. I don't think his company has really tried at all- they've come up with a bunch of superficial ideas that they've scrapped because they're "too small". That kind of lack of creativity doesn't exactly scream good game design.

As for higher priced games? Keep in mind the games are 3D now, and are using such features as 2 screens, a touch screen, voice recognition, wireless LAN, and Wi-Fi. Wouldn't it be naive to assume the production and research costs would not rise considerably?  

[Blackknight131]

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Originally posted by: Mumei
Well since they appear to be cheaper, I think part of it is trying to make a profit and part of it is royalties...

A royalty structure for a hit-or-miss console will not be exboritant compared to established and powerful names like GAMEBOY or PLAYSTATION. This is what the DS is...."hit-or-miss". Nintendo prays "hit". Demanding royalties disproportionate to the number of actual DS units sold just does not make sense. To me, I would think they want to do all they can to encourage development AND experimentation. As such, I dont believe the increased prices reflect a proportionate increase in royalties over GBA game royalties. Of course its about making profit...the question is whether higher game prices are literally too high a price to pay for initial profits?
This matter combines with the recent announcement that Nintendo is restricting developer's use of customized sound development software....perhaps Im not seeing clearly on these issues, but it looks worrisomely like Nintendo isn't being as forthcoming to developers as I would think they need to be to encourage adoption and interest in their new platoforms. Is a variable pricing structure, with some games at $15 or 20 or even 25 an unrealistic business model?
The PSP is a very real threat to their last remaining vestige of dominance, and their greatest source of profit.  The stakes are high...if Nintendo does not make as much money in the portable market, how much longer will they be able to stay in the black (profitability)?

-Blackknight131

[Blackknight131]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
I dunno- if a group of message board rats are able to come up with a bunch of interesting ideas, why can't he? And why is his company offering something with supposedly new and original gameplay on the PSP when it's nothing more than a souped up GBA? The DS has everything the PSP has and then some- I find it hypocritical of him to say they CAN'T think of any good ideas on the DS but CAN think of good ideas on the PSP. I don't think he has a legitimate base at all. I don't think his company has really tried at all- they've come up with a bunch of superficial ideas that they've scrapped because they're "too small". That kind of lack of creativity doesn't exactly scream good game design.

As for higher priced games? Keep in mind the games are 3D now, and are using such features as 2 screens, a touch screen, voice recognition, wireless LAN, and Wi-Fi. Wouldn't it be naive to assume the production and research costs would not rise considerably?

A lot of what you say is good sense, but I have to disagree in part. He did state that they and many other developers have come up with many new ideas and interesting little ways to manipulate the touch screen...but that these basically amount to small ideas that they would like to bring to fruition but cannot because a simple game doesnt justify a 3800 yen pricetag. He mentions at least one other developer who is similarly deadlocked.  
I care less about what the actual ideas entail (and it is as presumptuous to say they have not tried as it is to say they have worked hard) and more about how successful Nintendo has been with convincing developers to really dedicate their processes to compelling DS software....apparently, as you pointed out, this developer felt that for the kind of exciting full scale game they wanted to do, the PSP was better suited. I am hoping Nintendo can convince similarly minded developers to bring that same approach to the DS.

As for rising development costs, you are absolutely on the money there. As I said previously, it would seem that higher development costs must surely be one of the major factors in a price increase (if this price increase does indeed materialize)...but to what extent is what Im curious.
The DS has, conversely, also been stated to be a platform that is easy to develop for...I am supposing they meant in a technical programming sense. Because if the development costs have risen so much as to eclipse the clearly improved manufacturing costs, and assuming there is no royalty increase over GBA games, then I am curious if developers are literally paying their employees to think. Since the DS is supposedly a friendly platform technically, the hang ups must be conceptual?

One thing that MouseClicker's comment did bring to my mind however: why is Nintendo resisting the proliferation of simple, small easy-to-play games? It seems to be the kind of game so many of their visionaries (i.e Miyamoto-san) love, and it was primarily what was on display at E3.
I tink this may be because they are worried that if they give developer's the green light to produce and market such simple games, the DS library may become flooded with this kind of software. Which would make it look more and more like a gimmicky toy...and that would likely be horrible for long term success and a sure benefit for PSP sales.

-Blackknight131

[mouse_clicker]

I think it's quite obvious the developer hasn't tried hard enough to find ideas for the DS- the simple fact that they're in a rut should say as much.

And my point in bringing up his PSP game with it's "new style of gameplay" is what about the DS is holding them back from releasing their game on it? The fact is it's nothing- in fact, his game could only benefit from the DS's extra capabilities, such as the dual and touch screen features.  I think his problem is he's trying to build an entire game around using the dual or touch screen features, when what he really should be doing is looking for ways to incorporate those features into a much larger game. Don't make them the only piece to work with, make them work together in many different ways. I'm sure the DS could offer interesting and fun additions to his PSP game- in fact, I fail to see how it couldn't. He uses the analogy of blowing up a short story into a novel to describe the problem he's facing with DS games. He shouldn't be trying to enlarge one short story, he should be trying to piece together many interrelated short stories to form chapters of a single novel. Again, the problems he's facing don't exactly scream good gameplay design. I wouldn't be surprised if his PSP game turns out fairly bland.  

[Mumei]

I think it's quite obvious the developer hasn't tried hard enough to find ideas for the DS- the simple fact that they're in a rut should say as much.

No, that's just stupid.  Every developer gets stuck in a rut at times and they have to try to work around it.  He doesn't deserve all this just because he talked openly about problems that they were having on the company website.

[mouse_clicker]

Well, why can't he think of ideas? Even gamer nerds on a message board can think of ideas, why not him? As I've been saying, that doesn't scream good gameplay design- you don't pay your game designers to be stumped, especially when you have a wealth of tools at your hands. He shouldn't be looking for ways to make a game out of things like the touch and dual screen features, he should be looking for ways these features can accent a completely different idea.

[Blackknight131]

Who is to say we are even looking at his comments in the right context....
I dont remember reading anything about either him nor other developers he mentioned being in a rut. I think he actually stated that they had many ideas...just that they couldnt develop these ideas that they have been intrigued with into a game that would justify a cost of 3800 yen -  more than FFTactics Advance, more than Metroid Zero Mission, heck, even more than Boktai with its solar sensor.  These are the GBA games with the highest production values.
There are prolly many games on the GBA itself that are just harder to swallow at 5-8 dollars more. I've never payed more than 29.99 before tax for a GBA game, and even then its been a while since Ive bought a GBA game retail...
Again, we definitely have to consider that DS games will likely cost more than the average GBA game. But I'm strongly under the impression that the development costs are not exorbitantly higher, the way PSP games will be in comparison to GBA games....yep, looking at the interview with Beth Llewelyn (Nintendo Director of PR) in last months Game Informer she stated that Nintendo "intends to make [the DS] easy to develop for...", relatively with console games.
Anyways, this is great discussion.

-Blackknight131

[mouse_clicker]

That's the thing- he says they have a lot of small ideas and the problem is developing them into full fledged games. I've been commenting on that for the last 2 or 3 posts.

[KDR_11k]

What's your problem? This dev stated he has many minigame ideas and he can't sell them separately because they'd not be worth the money and he can't sell them bundled because he believes he'd rip off Wario Ware then. WTF? When has ripping off ever been an excuse not to make a game? They're just acting stupid. Probably loaned their brains to Sony or something.

Blackknight: I don't get why you're complaining about prices, DS games are much cheaper than GBA games. A GBA game costs 5080 Yen, everywhere but in NA GBA games cost the equivalent 50 US dollars. The price in the US stayed the same because they couldn't adjust the price after the dollar crashed. A GC game costs 70 USD and a GBA game costs 50. It's like that in Japan, it's like that in Europe, it's like that in Australia. The dollar is too weak. The games are getting cheaper, it's just that your money is worth a lot less. Dropping the price below 30 bucks would be outright stupid, cheaper manufacturing can't outweight dev cost increases enough to warrant a price drop by 50% or more.

[Blackknight131]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
What's your problem? This dev stated he has many minigame ideas and he can't sell them separately because they'd not be worth the money and he can't sell them bundled because he believes he'd rip off Wario Ware then. WTF? When has ripping off ever been an excuse not to make a game? They're just acting stupid. Probably loaned their brains to Sony or something.

Blackknight: I don't get why you're complaining about prices, DS games are much cheaper than GBA games. A GBA game costs 5080 Yen, everywhere but in NA GBA games cost the equivalent 50 US dollars. The price in the US stayed the same because they couldn't adjust the price after the dollar crashed. A GC game costs 70 USD and a GBA game costs 50. It's like that in Japan, it's like that in Europe, it's like that in Australia. The dollar is too weak. The games are getting cheaper, it's just that your money is worth a lot less. Dropping the price below 30 bucks would be outright stupid, cheaper manufacturing can't outweight dev cost increases enough to warrant a price drop by 50% or more.

If it is true that games in Japan retail for that price, and this is something that I am utterly unaware of, then my point is completely undercut. It has been my assumption until now that games in Japan retail for fairly close to the equivalent amount in dollars.
...
Apparently, this is not the case as I have just checked out Toys R Us Japan. Oh well, I'm totally wrong on my assumption.
To clarify so that everyone who had the same impression as me understands, new GBA games in Japan apparently retail between 4500 - 5500 yen. Its equivalence in dollars puts that around the neighborhood of $40-50.
Assuming the same relative pricing structure is adopted in America, we will be seeing game prices roughly equivalent and possibly a little less than what we pay for brand new GBA games. That, to me, is an acceptable price for portable content. I have to thank KDR for setting me straight on this.
I like to think I get a little less stupid everyday.

-Blackknight131