Topic: DS Gripes

[BlackNMild2k1]

What I would like to know is if you can wireless LAN play at the same time as you WiFi the internet?

What if me and a couple friends were playin a little multiplayer with each other(@ the same location) but still wanted to add more people, could we LAN each other and WiFi the rest of the 16 players?

If they could make that work seamlessly, then that would definately revolutionize wireless multiplayer and communication on the go.  

[Myxtika1 Azn]

I don't see why you cannot.  The way I understand it, you and your friend will just be using the same "hot spot" to jump online.

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Wait, wait, wait...all this means no playing your DS on the airplane!  I mean, it's constantly transmitting signals looking for other people with DS's nearby...that could severely mess up the air traffic signals, right?  Damn...a plane with toddlers not knowing their DS's from the technical aspect...unless airlines discover handheld gaming quickly, and start saying, "No cell phones, walkie-talkies, DS's, or PSP's" on the PA system...wow, suddenly I see a whole new problem for the world.  Time to hatch more ingenious scheemes!

[Mario]

I see that as free DS advertising. DS is the new walkman/cell phone!

[Mumei]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/07/16/news_6102921.html

That seems worrisome... I hope they are able to get out of the deadlock.

[Bill Aurion]

Sounds like developers need to finally learn to think...

[Griffin]

When you're on a flight, they ask you to turn off all electronic devices...that pretty much covers everything. I think it's only a major factor when you're taking off and landing, or if you have a really short flight. I wasn't allowed to whip out my GBA on an island hopper flight in hawaii (it was less than 30 minutes), but on the way home, I was able to play pretty much the whole trip. I don't think the signal would interfere, but who knows?

[Griffin]

Just read that link...what a moron I think this guy symbolizes everything that's wrong with game development...not enough imagination and an unwillingness to try.

[Mumei]

That was two of the stupidest comments I have ever heard.  They've been trying.  Yes, they are sooooooo stupid.  I mean, some of the greatest developers in the world (eg. Square, Capcom, Konami, Namco, EA) can't think of an idea that would justify the price of 3800 yen.  You are being stupid and naive in your insults.  

I'm getting sick of the blatant Nintendo fanboyism.  Nintendo hasn't come up with any compelling ideas either, aside from Wario Ware.  For now, the uses have been gimmicky.  "Sounds like developers need to finally learn to think."  Oh yes, because Nintendo is teh bestest evar and they have teh koolest ideas!!!  No.  They haven't come up with anything besides Wario Ware's new game that honestly requires the touch screen.  Every other game could be played normally and doesn't really require that touch screen.

If you weren't so busy not paying any attention to what third-party developers are doing, you would notice that they are coming up with just as many new ideas as Nintendo is in this generation, and probably more.  It is pretty stupid to say that they need to learn to think when this is a brand new way of making games.  Of course they are going to have trouble at the beginning.

That man does not symbolize everything that is wrong with game development.  He is trying to come up with something, but right now every developer is in a deadlock because the DS allows for small ideas and no one can think of a way to turn those small ideas into a fullfledged game without adding unncessary crap.  And "what a moron"??  At least he is smart enough to understand that he cannot sell a game with a few small ideas for 3800 yen.  He symbolizes everything that is right with game development; he is trying his best to come up with ideas and he is trying.  Just because you admit that everyone in a field is having a problem doesn't mean that you cannot think, that you don't have an imagination, or you cannot try.

And I don't know what the hell you are talking about "an unwillingness to try."  What the hell?  Did you even read the article?  He is trying, and those are real concerns with the system.  I'm sick of the insults to developers just because they are having trouble coming up with something.  

I can't believe the stupidity of these responses.  I expected maturity and a williness to discuss the possibility of delays, less games at launch, etc.  Instead, I get a stupid fanboy response that says, "OMG teh dveloprs r st00pid!!  Tehy n33d tu tihnk!!!"  

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Although I don't care much for very small, cell phone type games, the developer does have a valid complaint.  Unless these small touch screen ideas are thrown into a larger game as bonuses, they cannot currently be sold.  With its built in WiFi, Nintendo would do well to set up a mini-game online shop with 1st and 3rd party demos and small games.

[Bill Aurion]

Every other game could be played normally and doesn't really require that touch screen.

Aha, just because a game doesn't REQUIRE something doesn't mean it can't be improved or open new interactions with the touch screen...Being able to perform actions with the touch screen isn't really a way to create new gameplay ideas, imo, but open up new ways to get in touch(pun not intended) and interact even more with your games...

He is trying, and those are real concerns with the system.  I'm sick of the insults to developers just because they are having trouble coming up with something.

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again...What I'm laughing at is that these developers have barely had the development kits...Just because you can't come up with an idea in a ridiculously short amount of time is no reason to think that it's a concern with the system: it's the concern of the developer and their lack of realisation that good gameplay ideas take time to come up with...

Instead, I get a stupid fanboy response that says, "OMG teh dveloprs r st00pid!!  Tehy n33d tu tihnk!!!"

Hurrah for exaggeration!  I love being called a fanboy with absolutely no evidence to back up the claim except my disgust with 3rd party games...

[kirby_killer_dedede]

Quote
Originally posted by: Griffin
When you're on a flight, they ask you to turn off all electronic devices...that pretty much covers everything. I think it's only a major factor when you're taking off and landing, or if you have a really short flight. I wasn't allowed to whip out my GBA on an island hopper flight in hawaii (it was less than 30 minutes), but on the way home, I was able to play pretty much the whole trip. I don't think the signal would interfere, but who knows?

They say, "Cell phones should remain off the entire flight.  Please turn off anything with an on-off switch (anything electronic) now.  You may turn them on again once we are in the air, at which point I will alert you that it is safe to turn on your electronic device.  Do not turn on cell phones or anything with an antenna till we are safely at the gate."

[Mumei]

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Aha, just because a game doesn't REQUIRE something doesn't mean it can't be improved or open new interactions with the touch screen...Being able to perform actions with the touch screen isn't really a way to create new gameplay ideas, imo, but open up new ways to get in touch(pun not intended) and interact even more with your games...

That's just it.  I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

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If at first you don't succeed, try and try again...What I'm laughing at is that these developers have barely had the development kits...Just because you can't come up with an idea in a ridiculously short amount of time is no reason to think that it's a concern with the system: it's the concern of the developer and their lack of realisation that good gameplay ideas take time to come up with...

You didn't actually read it, did you?  They are able to come up with small ideas that would work in a Wario Ware-esque game.  But they cannot do that because Nintendo is already doing it.  Not even Nintendo has shown that there are any big ideas for the touchscreen, just small ideas that can't be used for a full fledged game on their own.  And I'm sure that they are far more aware of the time it takes to come up with good gameplay ideas that you.

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Hurrah for exaggeration! I love being called a fanboy with absolutely no evidence to back up the claim except my disgust with 3rd party games...

Yeah, and your disgust with third-party games makes so much sense - I mean who honestly wants games that are just as good as anything Nintendo puts out nowadays?  The reason I said you were acting like a fanboy?  Your kneejerk reaction was to defend Nintendo by saying that they need to learn to think.  You didn't even think of the possibility that it isn't just the third-parties that are having trouble coming up with ideas.  You single them out as the ones that aren't trying, yet Nintendo hasn't proven that they have any ideas.  But do you call them out?  And acting as though Nintendo can do no wrong >_>.

[Bill Aurion]

"Your kneejerk reaction was to defend Nintendo by saying that they need to learn to think"

Surely you jest...I wasn't defending Ninty, I was attacking the developer...Not ONCE have I said anything about Ninty doing anything absolutely revolutionary with any of their games so far, but that's perhaps due to the E3 games being demos, perhaps not...We won't know until we see the ACTUAL GAMES...

You single them out as the ones that aren't trying, yet Nintendo hasn't proven that they have any ideas. But do you call them out? And acting as though Nintendo can do no wrong >_>.

So just because I claim that 3rd parties aren't trying it's implied that I'm defending Nintendo?  Now that's an interesting piece of logic there...I single out the weenies who take the time out to complain and don't put that time towards coming up with ideas...

Basing Ninty's ideas on project demos...lol...

[mouse_clicker]

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That's just it. I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

I dunno, Pac Pix looks pretty awesome- I can't wait to get my hands on that.

Mumei: I think YOUR kneejerk reaction was to assume Bill is a slobbering Nintendo fanboy. You're just as guilty in making blind statements as you say he is.  

[Jale]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mumei

That's just it.  I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

Maybe you are not looking hard enough.

I think there is a bit of corperate mischief going on here. Carts don't cost much to manufacture, do they? The price is mainly profit and development costs. If what I heard is true, the only problem is people being too stingy with their money.

[Mumei]

Quote
Originally posted by: Jale

Quote
Originally posted by: Mumei

That's just it.  I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

Maybe you are not looking hard enough.

I think there is a bit of corperate mischief going on here. Carts don't cost much to manufacture, do they? The price is mainly profit and development costs. If what I heard is true, the only problem is people being too stingy with their money.

I looked at all of the E3 games that were announced, and have been keeping up on games since then >_>.

And carts cost a lot to manufacture.  They certainly cost a lot more than optical media does.  Why else did you think that N64 games often sold for 60 - 70 dollars while PSX games were going for 40 to 50 dollars?  They were that expensive because developers had to compensate for the high price of cartridges.

[Bill Aurion]

Actually, the DS "carts" are much cheaper to produce than GBA carts...

[Mumei]

But carts are more expensive than CD/DVD etc. and that raises the price.  You also have to consider Nintendo's royalty fees; the developer has to pay a certain amount to Nintendo for each cartridge sold (or maybe it is cartridge they buy....) and that raises the price.  Nintendo can then sell their own games for the same price as the third-parties and make even more money than the third-parties because they don't have to worry about royaties .

[Renny]

I think the new media is also faster to manufacture than carts. Maybe Nintendo will also drop their current batch-cart-purchasing sytem; i.e., selling carts to publishers at inconvenient increments. [At least I think they are still doing this with the GBA. Please correct me if I'm wrong, or praise me if I'm right.]

Are there any hard numbers on media prices? Ultra low-cost is somewhat ambiguous.

[Renny]

I'll answer that with an assumed yes.

Dennis Segers, CEO/President of Matrix Semiconducter:

...Today, the prerecorded content marketplace is served by Mask ROM technology. Manufacturers and publishers have used Mask ROM because it has been the lowest cost, highest density memory available. But the Mask ROM production process requires that the chips have the content programmed on them in the factory during manufacturing. As a result, manufacturers have suffered from a great deal of inflexibility and the high costs associated with difficult inventory management. They are required to predict months ahead of time what their sales will be and to make significant minimum orders. As a result, they suffer high inventory costs and are severely penalized if a title doesn’t sell. Similarly, if a title is a blockbuster, they may miss sales because they do not have enough supply and several months lag to catch up.

A good example of prerecorded content is portable games. In the game business, a key part of success is managing the inventory challenges associated with having many different titles of games. It’s pretty hard to predict which titles are going to be best sellers and which are going to be slow to sell. Often times, they find out two weeks before Christmas, when sales spike. With Mask ROM, it will be months before they can make any changes.

Matrix’s chip is actually lower cost and higher density than Mask ROM can achieve, while at the same time, being field programmable. So if I’m a game publisher, I can buy and build up blank cards, and have them programmed one day away from the retail counter at a regional distribution center (eventually even at the point of sale). With this model, I can guarantee that I never really run out of my most popular titles and I don’t sink a lot of money into excess inventory or unpopular titles.

Link

[Mumei]

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It’s pretty hard to predict which titles are going to be best sellers and which are going to be slow to sell.

Not for Nintendo .  Pokemon, Mario, Zelda = Instant Best-Seller ^_^.  Especially Pokemon...

[Blackknight131]

Thank you for the links Renny....I remember visiting Matrix SemiConductors website a while back, but Ive forgotten that the turnaround time to manufacture games is quite a bit superior to Old Skool carts...
However, one thing I havent mistaken is that 3D Memory technology, which will be the basis of the manufacturing routines behind the DS's datacards, leads to costs about 10 times cheaper than existing manufacturing routines for the data cards used in cameras and whatnot (whether they are comparing to CompactFlash or Secure Digital, I'm not sure). This is a stated advantage of the technology, along with the fact that exisitng manufacturing facilities can be used to do this....so lets list out the major differences here:


1. The DS data cards will be cheaper to manufacture than even GBA carts...the relative scale is that manufacturing is 10 times cheaper than existing datacards (Compact Flash, SD), and existing manufacturing plants can be utilized: i.e. no new plants need be built to manufacture DS games
2. The turnaround time between ordered games to be manufactured and actually having it done is greatly reduced compared to carts. This benefits two ways I can see: the deadline for development can be stretched out a bit more, and developers dont need to worry as much about ordering too many or too few games for initial manufacture.


I am convinced this is superior media for a portable gaming system, compared to optical disks. I dont care about movies, and it seems large capacities too often are just an avenue to pack more FMV into games...anyway back to the central argument on hand.

Why are DS games projected as 3800 yen? (around 35 US dollars I think) The games are much cheaper and faster to manufacture and the risk of manufacturing too many carts or too few is thus reduced. Shouldn't we be getting prices at worst equal to GBA games? Does Nintendo feel that the development costs over GBA games are so high that they must compensate in game price? Or is it because they fear that far less copies of DS games will be sold as compared to GBA games that they must fix the price higher to compensate? Is it a combination of the two? Or are they just greedy?
....
Theres more than meets the eye here, but I commend the developer in voicing his concerns...after reading the article (thanx for the link), I realized the context of his comments had a definite base. He shouldnt be put down for making valid observations....remember folks, these are just observations of the development situation that he posted on his companies own website!

-Blackknight131

[Mumei]

Well since they appear to be cheaper, I think part of it is trying to make a profit and part of it is royalties...

[Blackknight131]

To compare business models, does anyone remember a week and a half ago when the Sony Europe president had that interview? The one where he mentioned that the PSP could only play ATRAC music files, and that PSP games would retail for around the same price as PS2 games? ($39.99-49.99)
My question is, what is their justification of such high prices for portable games? I wonder if they are considering the same issues as Nintendo (i.e. increased development cost, low sales due to number of initial hardware units sold). Its interesting because two reasons would suggest they should come in at a price point that is competitive with the GBA:

1) discs are dirt cheap to manufacture, and this is likely true even for Sony's proprietary UMD (stated to be comparable to the cost of a normal DVD)
2) Sony needs to break a lot of new ground and do a lot of converting as well....high prices for games meant to be played on a 4 inch screen just doesnt seem to help either cause.

Any thoughts on this? Dop Sony and Nintendo think frighteningly alike afterall?

-Blackknight131