Author Topic: DS Gripes (Read 9649 times)

raptorspike · « **on:** May 27, 2004, 07:51:49 PM »

Ok, I am as much a nintendo fan as the next guy. I actually bought my GC just for the sole reason that nintendo made it. But I am starting to have second thoughts on buying myself a DS when the time presents itself. The touch screen Idea seems just a little too radical for me. Personally, I was psyched at the original idea of a simple dual-screen portable. But the touch screen kinda removes the portability. You would now need to sit down at a table to use it. Now some of the games that have been presented for the DS, ex. Metroid Prime: Hunters, look perfectly capable of being played with the pad and buttons. Now I am not saying that all games should or shouldn't utilize the touch screen, just make a few that don't. Like racing games, use one screen for the actual race, and the other for gauges and such. Anyone else have some gripes, please, post. I don't want to be the only hater on this system.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2004, 08:45:38 PM »

You can play it while standing, at least the reports so far seem to indicate that.

Too radical, eh? That's probably what the mainstream will think. "Couldn't they have thrown more power and multimedia into that thing instead of adding innovation"?

Michael8983 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2004, 01:58:43 AM »

Why would you think the touch screen would require you to sit down on a table? You just TOUCH the SCREEN. That's it. It doesn't hinder the portability any more than having to PRESS the BUTTONS does.
The games are obviously going to be designed with physical human limitations in mind. You won't need a third hand or anything. I'm sure a lot of games won't rely heavily on the touch screen. Super Mario 64x4 for instance, only appears to use the touch screen for viewing portions of the map display. And that's a heck of a lot more convenient than having to interupt the focal gameplay and use the D-Pad and buttons to navigate the map.

areefer · « **Reply #3 on:** May 28, 2004, 09:25:56 AM »

Before you go hating on the ds and it's two lovely screens consider that having two screens is a new and exciting way to game if done correctly and don't get it twisted that it ain't cool ause i've played touch screen games befor that rocked and just becuse it's a touch doesn't mean you can't just enjoy a game that utilizes the second screen minus the "touching".

With wi-fi we get so many options it ain't funny and once ideas get out there and the games start selling the ds is gonna be the talk of gaming.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #4 on:** May 28, 2004, 08:53:44 PM »

BTW, most people don't need to put dwn their PDAs to use the touchscreen...

WuTangTurtle · « **Reply #5 on:** May 28, 2004, 09:11:36 PM »

I'm really excited about the DS too, but even i have some gripes too.

1. It needs to be redesigned, I like the design but compared to the PSP the DS really does look like clunky and a bit ugly. that being said though i would still buy it because i know it has inner beauty, lol.

2. The L + R buttons look very strange and they felt strange too, lets get some GCN like L + R triggers!

So far those are my only real gripes, and they really are minor gripes, now on PSP.........well do u have about 30min to spare?

.....................awwww #%@# it we both know u don't wanna waste 30min and i know i don't wanna type for the next 30min, lol.

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 29, 2004, 12:04:24 AM »

Quote
The L + R buttons look very strange and they felt strange too

Damn.

BTW guys, Gamespy has a new interview with Miyamoto san and one of the lead hardware engineers at Nintendo, just in case you havent seen it. Very interesting, Miyamoto actually doesnt talk have too much to say in this one, as they are largely hardware related questions. I thought the comments on designing the touch screen to be rugged were amusing as hell...

-Blackknight131

Jdub03 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 29, 2004, 12:26:36 PM »

What is this submarine game they speak of. I havent heard of it until now

ruby_onix · « **Reply #8 on:** May 29, 2004, 01:44:46 PM »

Quote
Why would you think the touch screen would require you to sit down on a table? You just TOUCH the SCREEN. That's it.

With a regular GBA, you typically use your thumbs for the face controls, your two index fingers are supposed to be ready to use the triggers, and you use your remaining three fingers on each hand to hold up the system.

The DS is looking to be about as wide as the classic GBA, and probably a bit heavier, with most of that new weight making it top-heavy. The control setup is mostly the same.

But if you want to use a stylus on the touch screen, you have to take your right hand off the unit, which might make it a bit tough to hold up the entire unit with just three fingers. And then if that wasn't bad enough, your're expected to start poking at the center of the unit.

And then there's another oddity in that left-handed people don't normally hold pens (or a stylus) with their right hands, meaning that they might have to take their left hands off the D-pad to use the touch screen. Most games seem to let you take your hands off the buttons for a few moments to reorient yourself without too much trouble, but if you "take your hands off the steering wheel", or stop moving around in a videogame, you usually end up paying for it.

Although personally, I'm not too worried about these things. I'm confident that Nintendo will do all they can to adjust the system's weight and balance, and it might never be "perfect", but we'll probably be able to live with the final results. And I'm a lefty myself, and while it feels strange to hold a pen in my right hand, I can easily picture myself holding the unit, then rotating my right hand 90 degrees counter-clockwise, making some light taps on a screen with my index finger, and then grabbing the unit again, without letting up on the D-pad.

Quote
BTW, most people don't need to put dwn their PDAs to use the touchscreen...

AFAIK, most PDAs are meant to be "cupped" in one entire hand, while you use the stylus with your other hand. They aren't used in real gaming situations (of course, I don't have a PDA myself, so I could be wrong).

KDR_11k · « **Reply #9 on:** May 29, 2004, 09:16:13 PM »

Ruby: For the left handed: 1. You don't switch hands in midgame (did any N64 game use the buttons AND the d-pad AND the stick?) 2. The buttons work like a dpad in Prime Hunters, which is the only game I've seen that uses both the buttons/pad and the stylus at the same time.

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2004, 10:48:47 PM »

A quikie about the submarine game on DS...concept is basically that the top screen is a 3-d representation of your sub as it moves below the water, meanwhile the lower touch screen depicts the controls like levers, switches and buttons that you 'stylize' to control the sub. Its just a tech demo, not officially a game for release just yet, altho I read that Miyamoto was very fond of it. Altho it doesnt sound deep enough to be a standalone release as it is now, maybe it can be part of a larger game, like a new StarTropics type game...

-Blackknight131

KDR_11k · « **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2004, 06:23:36 AM »

Which brings us to another advantage of the dual screen and touch screen: Many flight sims have what they call an "interactive cockpit". That essentially means you can use your mouse to push the buttons in the cockpit instead of mapping them to the keyboard.

Grant10k · « **Reply #12 on:** May 30, 2004, 07:05:10 AM »

When you hold a PDA you hold it with the four finger of your left hand (unless you have some strange mental disorder aka: left handed (J/K)) and use your thumb to operate the little scrolley wheel on the side (if you have one). That, however, is just the common usage, it's not the only way to use it. you can easaly hold a pda with just two fingers from the botton, or the side or whatever. you can even use your thumb and two adjacent fingers as kind of a tripod and use it that way, throwing the concept of "pinching" compleatly out with the wind. the only reason most people don't hold the pda from the side is that there is 1) no reason to 2) there is nothing to hold on to, the side of the screen is less than an inch. given a whold d-pad sized grip, it would be no challange to hold with one hand and use the other for the dpad.

now, on to lefthandedstyluses

you don't have to be right handed to use a stylus with your right hand. you just can't write with it. when you play games you aim with both your left or right hand with no real trouble. i can use a stylus left handed with no real trouble, i can't use the writing thing but anything else i can do. pictochat dosn't seem to require constant attention to the dpad so that shouldn't be a problem, i'd hate to be attacked by an enemy while i'm busy drawing mario (reminds me of when i'm playing unreal torny and i hit the 'say' button and instantly become paralized from the mouth down.

SuperMario35 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2004, 06:43:03 PM »

I just wanted to know if the DS has a main menu similar to gamecube like options,gameplay, and clock. Also I noticed something that the DS is lacking in.
Most of the DS games are multilplayer and short. I was wondering if a game like Final Fantasy is even possible on the system. Most of the games like Mario 64x4 and Metroid Prime hunters are all multyiplayer games and not single player games. I could understand if Nintendo includes Multiplayer modes on every game they release but they should add a good single player mode to it as well. For example Mario64x4 is a good multiplayer game but it would be better if they added the whole Super Mario 64 adventure game that was released for the N64. I also wanted to know if Nintendo is going to release any single player games add all. Nintendo is concentrating only on multiplayer and their not thinking of the people who may not have friends near by.
Also most of the games were really short like Sega's Sonic DS. Is that going to be a mini game because all I saw was sonic racing to the finish,all you did was make him faster by moving the stylus rapidly. So my point is that DS games are really short and Nintendo is focusing on Multiplayer games only I hope they make a single player mode for each game that they release and I hope third party publishers do the same thing.

WuTangTurtle · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2004, 01:38:33 AM »

first of all the DS at E3 were just demos. you can even say tech demos.

There is a video link to a french video of mario64x4 that shows single player. It is the 1st level with the bomb king guy.

Secondly yes DS will have alot of multiplayer games, but i don't see nintendo ditching the single player aspect, that would just be a total jump in the opposite way of how nintendo does things, although they do make some high quality multiplayer games.

lastly but not least i truely hope SquareEnix releases something good besides the already confirmed Crystal Chronicles DS (i think they confirmed it anyways) and i do hope the Zelda DS won't just be Four Swords, especially since i just bought it on GCN after passing it up on GBA. After playing it on GCN i should kick myself for passing it up on GBA.

Bloodworth · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2004, 07:37:00 PM »

Quote
Most of the DS games are multilplayer and short. I was wondering if a game like Final Fantasy is even possible on the system.

This is one reason the public doesn't get into E3. The demos are just that demos. There are a few of them that are meant to turn into final games, but the Sonic demo was simply an idea of what might be done on DS. As for Single player... Why wouldn't it be capable of single-player??? Trust me, Mario 64 and Metroid both have single player modes, as I'm sure Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, and any other game will.

Multiplayer is being emphasized because it is probably going to be even more revolutionary than the touch screen. No more carrying cables around and asking strangers with GBAs if they have a certain game and want to play. All you need to do is have your DS on sleep mode and it will tell you when there's a game available, for up to 16 people that you don't have to talk to if you don't want to.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2004, 07:40:47 PM »

Quote
Multiplayer is being emphasized because it is probably going to be even more revolutionary than the touch screen. No more carrying cables around and asking strangers with GBAs if they have a certain game and want to play. All you need to do is have your DS on sleep mode and it will tell you when there's a game available, for up to 16 people that you don't have to talk to if you don't want to.

Because that's exactly what us gamers need, a reinforcement of our antisocial behavior.

Bloodworth · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2004, 07:49:00 PM »

Well, I'm just saying that it's a lot easier to tune into a game than to walk around the airport asking strangers if they have a GameBoy.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2004, 07:51:48 PM »

It was a joke.

I really like the whole alert system that tells you when someone else is nearby with a DS- that should really help finding new people to play games with. I also just love the idea of a wireless LAN, being able to play with a friend across the class room or 7 rows down on the plane. Does the PSP have wireless LAN?

WuTangTurtle · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2004, 01:30:37 AM »

i believe the psp has WiFi, not sure about a wireless lan though, but i think it does.

Berto2K · « **Reply #20 on:** June 12, 2004, 04:14:53 PM »

WiFi = Wireless LAN, they are the same thing.

WuTangTurtle · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2004, 02:14:22 AM »

I thought they said it would have wireless lan ability, and WiFi for ppl who can connect with WiFi.

At the Press Conference i believe they stated "dual wireless connections" Wireless lan and WiFi.

Unless i heard wrong then i dunno, im pretty sure WiFi may come in handy to some but for some poor b@stard in the middle of nowhere would'nt have a WiFi connection so Wireless Lan would be his/her route.

I hope i have this right, oh well prove me wrong, lol.

Darc Requiem · « **Reply #22 on:** June 13, 2004, 09:33:47 AM »

Shaolinkilla you are right there is the WiFI connection which lets you play multiplayer via the internet and the Wireless LAN feature which allows you to play up to 16 player multiplayer with a certain distance...I think it was 100 feet can someone please give me the exact radius. I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment

No more link cables!

Darc Requiem

Bloodworth · « **Reply #23 on:** June 13, 2004, 01:23:31 PM »

Yeah, it's 30 meters for the wireless multiplay, which is a proprietary technology separate from the WiFi.

Griffin · « **Reply #24 on:** June 13, 2004, 04:13:05 PM »

And, I would assume, that wireless technology is based on the Wavebird tech. If so, I don't see any large problems aside from a steel blast door interfering with the connection.

BlackNMild2k1 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 13, 2004, 05:33:17 PM »

What I would like to know is if you can wireless LAN play at the same time as you WiFi the internet?

What if me and a couple friends were playin a little multiplayer with each other(@ the same location) but still wanted to add more people, could we LAN each other and WiFi the rest of the 16 players?

If they could make that work seamlessly, then that would definately revolutionize wireless multiplayer and communication on the go.

Myxtika1 Azn · « **Reply #26 on:** June 13, 2004, 08:02:05 PM »

I don't see why you cannot. The way I understand it, you and your friend will just be using the same "hot spot" to jump online.

kirby_killer_dedede · « **Reply #27 on:** July 17, 2004, 07:28:14 PM »

Wait, wait, wait...all this means no playing your DS on the airplane! I mean, it's constantly transmitting signals looking for other people with DS's nearby...that could severely mess up the air traffic signals, right? Damn...a plane with toddlers not knowing their DS's from the technical aspect...unless airlines discover handheld gaming quickly, and start saying, "No cell phones, walkie-talkies, DS's, or PSP's" on the PA system...wow, suddenly I see a whole new problem for the world. Time to hatch more ingenious scheemes!

Mario · « **Reply #28 on:** July 18, 2004, 12:34:51 AM »

I see that as free DS advertising. DS is the new walkman/cell phone!

Mumei · « **Reply #29 on:** July 18, 2004, 02:53:04 AM »

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/07/16/news_6102921.html

That seems worrisome... I hope they are able to get out of the deadlock.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #30 on:** July 18, 2004, 05:45:42 AM »

Sounds like developers need to finally learn to think...

Griffin · « **Reply #31 on:** July 18, 2004, 06:21:16 AM »

When you're on a flight, they ask you to turn off all electronic devices...that pretty much covers everything. I think it's only a major factor when you're taking off and landing, or if you have a really short flight. I wasn't allowed to whip out my GBA on an island hopper flight in hawaii (it was less than 30 minutes), but on the way home, I was able to play pretty much the whole trip. I don't think the signal would interfere, but who knows?

Griffin · « **Reply #32 on:** July 18, 2004, 06:24:33 AM »

Just read that link...what a moron

I think this guy symbolizes everything that's wrong with game development...not enough imagination and an unwillingness to try.

Mumei · « **Reply #33 on:** July 18, 2004, 09:03:11 AM »

That was two of the stupidest comments I have ever heard. They've been trying. Yes, they are sooooooo stupid. I mean, some of the greatest developers in the world (eg. Square, Capcom, Konami, Namco, EA) can't think of an idea that would justify the price of 3800 yen. You are being stupid and naive in your insults.

I'm getting sick of the blatant Nintendo fanboyism. Nintendo hasn't come up with any compelling ideas either, aside from Wario Ware. For now, the uses have been gimmicky. "Sounds like developers need to finally learn to think." Oh yes, because Nintendo is teh bestest evar and they have teh koolest ideas!!! No. They haven't come up with anything besides Wario Ware's new game that honestly requires the touch screen. Every other game could be played normally and doesn't really require that touch screen.

If you weren't so busy not paying any attention to what third-party developers are doing, you would notice that they are coming up with just as many new ideas as Nintendo is in this generation, and probably more. It is pretty stupid to say that they need to learn to think when this is a brand new way of making games. Of course they are going to have trouble at the beginning.

That man does not symbolize everything that is wrong with game development. He is trying to come up with something, but right now every developer is in a deadlock because the DS allows for small ideas and no one can think of a way to turn those small ideas into a fullfledged game without adding unncessary crap. And "what a moron"?? At least he is smart enough to understand that he cannot sell a game with a few small ideas for 3800 yen. He symbolizes everything that is right with game development; he is trying his best to come up with ideas and he is trying. Just because you admit that everyone in a field is having a problem doesn't mean that you cannot think, that you don't have an imagination, or you cannot try.

And I don't know what the hell you are talking about "an unwillingness to try." What the hell? Did you even read the article? He is trying, and those are real concerns with the system. I'm sick of the insults to developers just because they are having trouble coming up with something.

I can't believe the stupidity of these responses. I expected maturity and a williness to discuss the possibility of delays, less games at launch, etc. Instead, I get a stupid fanboy response that says, "OMG teh dveloprs r st00pid!! Tehy n33d tu tihnk!!!"

TheYoungerPlumber · « **Reply #34 on:** July 18, 2004, 09:36:01 AM »

Although I don't care much for very small, cell phone type games, the developer does have a valid complaint. Unless these small touch screen ideas are thrown into a larger game as bonuses, they cannot currently be sold. With its built in WiFi, Nintendo would do well to set up a mini-game online shop with 1st and 3rd party demos and small games.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #35 on:** July 18, 2004, 09:48:55 AM »

Every other game could be played normally and doesn't really require that touch screen.

Aha, just because a game doesn't REQUIRE something doesn't mean it can't be improved or open new interactions with the touch screen...Being able to perform actions with the touch screen isn't really a way to create new gameplay ideas, imo, but open up new ways to get in touch(pun not intended) and interact even more with your games...

He is trying, and those are real concerns with the system. I'm sick of the insults to developers just because they are having trouble coming up with something.

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again...What I'm laughing at is that these developers have barely had the development kits...Just because you can't come up with an idea in a ridiculously short amount of time is no reason to think that it's a concern with the system: it's the concern of the developer and their lack of realisation that good gameplay ideas take time to come up with...

Instead, I get a stupid fanboy response that says, "OMG teh dveloprs r st00pid!! Tehy n33d tu tihnk!!!"

Hurrah for exaggeration! I love being called a fanboy with absolutely no evidence to back up the claim except my disgust with 3rd party games...

kirby_killer_dedede · « **Reply #36 on:** July 18, 2004, 10:46:05 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Griffin
When you're on a flight, they ask you to turn off all electronic devices...that pretty much covers everything. I think it's only a major factor when you're taking off and landing, or if you have a really short flight. I wasn't allowed to whip out my GBA on an island hopper flight in hawaii (it was less than 30 minutes), but on the way home, I was able to play pretty much the whole trip. I don't think the signal would interfere, but who knows?

They say, "Cell phones should remain off the entire flight. Please turn off anything with an on-off switch (anything electronic) now. You may turn them on again once we are in the air, at which point I will alert you that it is safe to turn on your electronic device. Do not turn on cell phones or anything with an antenna till we are safely at the gate."

Mumei · « **Reply #37 on:** July 18, 2004, 11:20:59 AM »

Quote
Aha, just because a game doesn't REQUIRE something doesn't mean it can't be improved or open new interactions with the touch screen...Being able to perform actions with the touch screen isn't really a way to create new gameplay ideas, imo, but open up new ways to get in touch(pun not intended) and interact even more with your games...

That's just it. I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

Quote
If at first you don't succeed, try and try again...What I'm laughing at is that these developers have barely had the development kits...Just because you can't come up with an idea in a ridiculously short amount of time is no reason to think that it's a concern with the system: it's the concern of the developer and their lack of realisation that good gameplay ideas take time to come up with...

You didn't actually read it, did you? They are able to come up with small ideas that would work in a Wario Ware-esque game. But they cannot do that because Nintendo is already doing it. Not even Nintendo has shown that there are any big ideas for the touchscreen, just small ideas that can't be used for a full fledged game on their own. And I'm sure that they are far more aware of the time it takes to come up with good gameplay ideas that you.

Quote
Hurrah for exaggeration! I love being called a fanboy with absolutely no evidence to back up the claim except my disgust with 3rd party games...

Yeah, and your disgust with third-party games makes so much sense - I mean who honestly wants games that are just as good as anything Nintendo puts out nowadays? The reason I said you were acting like a fanboy? Your kneejerk reaction was to defend Nintendo by saying that they need to learn to think. You didn't even think of the possibility that it isn't just the third-parties that are having trouble coming up with ideas. You single them out as the ones that aren't trying, yet Nintendo hasn't proven that they have any ideas. But do you call them out? And acting as though Nintendo can do no wrong >_>.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #38 on:** July 18, 2004, 11:42:55 AM »

"Your kneejerk reaction was to defend Nintendo by saying that they need to learn to think"

Surely you jest...I wasn't defending Ninty, I was attacking the developer...Not ONCE have I said anything about Ninty doing anything absolutely revolutionary with any of their games so far, but that's perhaps due to the E3 games being demos, perhaps not...We won't know until we see the ACTUAL GAMES...

You single them out as the ones that aren't trying, yet Nintendo hasn't proven that they have any ideas. But do you call them out? And acting as though Nintendo can do no wrong >_>.

So just because I claim that 3rd parties aren't trying it's implied that I'm defending Nintendo? Now that's an interesting piece of logic there...I single out the weenies who take the time out to complain and don't put that time towards coming up with ideas...

Basing Ninty's ideas on project demos...lol...

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #39 on:** July 18, 2004, 11:47:50 AM »

Quote
That's just it. I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

I dunno, Pac Pix looks pretty awesome- I can't wait to get my hands on that.

Mumei: I think YOUR kneejerk reaction was to assume Bill is a slobbering Nintendo fanboy. You're just as guilty in making blind statements as you say he is.

Jale · « **Reply #40 on:** July 18, 2004, 11:48:33 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Mumei

That's just it. I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

Maybe you are not looking hard enough.

I think there is a bit of corperate mischief going on here. Carts don't cost much to manufacture, do they? The price is mainly profit and development costs. If what I heard is true, the only problem is people being too stingy with their money.

Mumei · « **Reply #41 on:** July 18, 2004, 02:06:39 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Jale
Quote
Originally posted by: Mumei

That's just it. I haven't seen a single game aside from Wario Ware that honestly benefits in any way from the touchscreen.

Maybe you are not looking hard enough.

I think there is a bit of corperate mischief going on here. Carts don't cost much to manufacture, do they? The price is mainly profit and development costs. If what I heard is true, the only problem is people being too stingy with their money.

I looked at all of the E3 games that were announced, and have been keeping up on games since then >_>.

And carts cost a lot to manufacture. They certainly cost a lot more than optical media does. Why else did you think that N64 games often sold for 60 - 70 dollars while PSX games were going for 40 to 50 dollars? They were that expensive because developers had to compensate for the high price of cartridges.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #42 on:** July 18, 2004, 02:17:42 PM »

Actually, the DS "carts" are much cheaper to produce than GBA carts...

Mumei · « **Reply #43 on:** July 18, 2004, 03:59:59 PM »

But carts are more expensive than CD/DVD etc. and that raises the price. You also have to consider Nintendo's royalty fees; the developer has to pay a certain amount to Nintendo for each cartridge sold (or maybe it is cartridge they buy....) and that raises the price. Nintendo can then sell their own games for the same price as the third-parties and make even more money than the third-parties because they don't have to worry about royaties

.

Renny · « **Reply #44 on:** July 18, 2004, 04:25:48 PM »

I think the new media is also faster to manufacture than carts. Maybe Nintendo will also drop their current batch-cart-purchasing sytem; i.e., selling carts to publishers at inconvenient increments. [At least I think they are still doing this with the GBA. Please correct me if I'm wrong, or praise me if I'm right.]

Are there any hard numbers on media prices? Ultra low-cost is somewhat ambiguous.

Renny · « **Reply #45 on:** July 18, 2004, 04:55:37 PM »

I'll answer that with an assumed yes.

Dennis Segers, CEO/President of Matrix Semiconducter:

...Today, the prerecorded content marketplace is served by Mask ROM technology. Manufacturers and publishers have used Mask ROM because it has been the lowest cost, highest density memory available. But the Mask ROM production process requires that the chips have the content programmed on them in the factory during manufacturing. As a result, manufacturers have suffered from a great deal of inflexibility and the high costs associated with difficult inventory management. They are required to predict months ahead of time what their sales will be and to make significant minimum orders. As a result, they suffer high inventory costs and are severely penalized if a title doesn’t sell. Similarly, if a title is a blockbuster, they may miss sales because they do not have enough supply and several months lag to catch up.

A good example of prerecorded content is portable games. In the game business, a key part of success is managing the inventory challenges associated with having many different titles of games. It’s pretty hard to predict which titles are going to be best sellers and which are going to be slow to sell. Often times, they find out two weeks before Christmas, when sales spike. With Mask ROM, it will be months before they can make any changes.

Matrix’s chip is actually lower cost and higher density than Mask ROM can achieve, while at the same time, being field programmable. So if I’m a game publisher, I can buy and build up blank cards, and have them programmed one day away from the retail counter at a regional distribution center (eventually even at the point of sale). With this model, I can guarantee that I never really run out of my most popular titles and I don’t sink a lot of money into excess inventory or unpopular titles.

Link

Mumei · « **Reply #46 on:** July 18, 2004, 07:33:11 PM »

Quote
It’s pretty hard to predict which titles are going to be best sellers and which are going to be slow to sell.

Not for Nintendo

. Pokemon, Mario, Zelda = Instant Best-Seller ^_^. Especially Pokemon...

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #47 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:23:20 PM »

Thank you for the links Renny....I remember visiting Matrix SemiConductors website a while back, but Ive forgotten that the turnaround time to manufacture games is quite a bit superior to Old Skool carts...
However, one thing I havent mistaken is that 3D Memory technology, which will be the basis of the manufacturing routines behind the DS's datacards, leads to costs about 10 times cheaper than existing manufacturing routines for the data cards used in cameras and whatnot (whether they are comparing to CompactFlash or Secure Digital, I'm not sure). This is a stated advantage of the technology, along with the fact that exisitng manufacturing facilities can be used to do this....so lets list out the major differences here:

1. The DS data cards will be cheaper to manufacture than even GBA carts...the relative scale is that manufacturing is 10 times cheaper than existing datacards (Compact Flash, SD), and existing manufacturing plants can be utilized: i.e. no new plants need be built to manufacture DS games
2. The turnaround time between ordered games to be manufactured and actually having it done is greatly reduced compared to carts. This benefits two ways I can see: the deadline for development can be stretched out a bit more, and developers dont need to worry as much about ordering too many or too few games for initial manufacture.

I am convinced this is superior media for a portable gaming system, compared to optical disks. I dont care about movies, and it seems large capacities too often are just an avenue to pack more FMV into games...anyway back to the central argument on hand.

Why are DS games projected as 3800 yen? (around 35 US dollars I think) The games are much cheaper and faster to manufacture and the risk of manufacturing too many carts or too few is thus reduced. Shouldn't we be getting prices at worst equal to GBA games? Does Nintendo feel that the development costs over GBA games are so high that they must compensate in game price? Or is it because they fear that far less copies of DS games will be sold as compared to GBA games that they must fix the price higher to compensate? Is it a combination of the two? Or are they just greedy?
....
Theres more than meets the eye here, but I commend the developer in voicing his concerns...after reading the article (thanx for the link), I realized the context of his comments had a definite base. He shouldnt be put down for making valid observations....remember folks, these are just observations of the development situation that he posted on his companies own website!

-Blackknight131

Mumei · « **Reply #48 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:31:31 PM »

Well since they appear to be cheaper, I think part of it is trying to make a profit and part of it is royalties...

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #49 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:31:48 PM »

To compare business models, does anyone remember a week and a half ago when the Sony Europe president had that interview? The one where he mentioned that the PSP could only play ATRAC music files, and that PSP games would retail for around the same price as PS2 games? ($39.99-49.99)
My question is, what is their justification of such high prices for portable games? I wonder if they are considering the same issues as Nintendo (i.e. increased development cost, low sales due to number of initial hardware units sold). Its interesting because two reasons would suggest they should come in at a price point that is competitive with the GBA:

1) discs are dirt cheap to manufacture, and this is likely true even for Sony's proprietary UMD (stated to be comparable to the cost of a normal DVD)
2) Sony needs to break a lot of new ground and do a lot of converting as well....high prices for games meant to be played on a 4 inch screen just doesnt seem to help either cause.

Any thoughts on this? Dop Sony and Nintendo think frighteningly alike afterall?

-Blackknight131

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #50 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:33:27 PM »

I dunno- if a group of message board rats are able to come up with a bunch of interesting ideas, why can't he? And why is his company offering something with supposedly new and original gameplay on the PSP when it's nothing more than a souped up GBA? The DS has everything the PSP has and then some- I find it hypocritical of him to say they CAN'T think of any good ideas on the DS but CAN think of good ideas on the PSP. I don't think he has a legitimate base at all. I don't think his company has really tried at all- they've come up with a bunch of superficial ideas that they've scrapped because they're "too small". That kind of lack of creativity doesn't exactly scream good game design.

As for higher priced games? Keep in mind the games are 3D now, and are using such features as 2 screens, a touch screen, voice recognition, wireless LAN, and Wi-Fi. Wouldn't it be naive to assume the production and research costs would not rise considerably?

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #51 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:42:46 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Mumei
Well since they appear to be cheaper, I think part of it is trying to make a profit and part of it is royalties...

A royalty structure for a hit-or-miss console will not be exboritant compared to established and powerful names like GAMEBOY or PLAYSTATION. This is what the DS is...."hit-or-miss". Nintendo prays "hit". Demanding royalties disproportionate to the number of actual DS units sold just does not make sense. To me, I would think they want to do all they can to encourage development AND experimentation. As such, I dont believe the increased prices reflect a proportionate increase in royalties over GBA game royalties. Of course its about making profit...the question is whether higher game prices are literally too high a price to pay for initial profits?
This matter combines with the recent announcement that Nintendo is restricting developer's use of customized sound development software....perhaps Im not seeing clearly on these issues, but it looks worrisomely like Nintendo isn't being as forthcoming to developers as I would think they need to be to encourage adoption and interest in their new platoforms. Is a variable pricing structure, with some games at $15 or 20 or even 25 an unrealistic business model?
The PSP is a very real threat to their last remaining vestige of dominance, and their greatest source of profit. The stakes are high...if Nintendo does not make as much money in the portable market, how much longer will they be able to stay in the black (profitability)?

-Blackknight131

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #52 on:** July 19, 2004, 04:21:05 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
I dunno- if a group of message board rats are able to come up with a bunch of interesting ideas, why can't he? And why is his company offering something with supposedly new and original gameplay on the PSP when it's nothing more than a souped up GBA? The DS has everything the PSP has and then some- I find it hypocritical of him to say they CAN'T think of any good ideas on the DS but CAN think of good ideas on the PSP. I don't think he has a legitimate base at all. I don't think his company has really tried at all- they've come up with a bunch of superficial ideas that they've scrapped because they're "too small". That kind of lack of creativity doesn't exactly scream good game design.

As for higher priced games? Keep in mind the games are 3D now, and are using such features as 2 screens, a touch screen, voice recognition, wireless LAN, and Wi-Fi. Wouldn't it be naive to assume the production and research costs would not rise considerably?

A lot of what you say is good sense, but I have to disagree in part. He did state that they and many other developers have come up with many new ideas and interesting little ways to manipulate the touch screen...but that these basically amount to small ideas that they would like to bring to fruition but cannot because a simple game doesnt justify a 3800 yen pricetag. He mentions at least one other developer who is similarly deadlocked.
I care less about what the actual ideas entail (and it is as presumptuous to say they have not tried as it is to say they have worked hard) and more about how successful Nintendo has been with convincing developers to really dedicate their processes to compelling DS software....apparently, as you pointed out, this developer felt that for the kind of exciting full scale game they wanted to do, the PSP was better suited. I am hoping Nintendo can convince similarly minded developers to bring that same approach to the DS.

As for rising development costs, you are absolutely on the money there. As I said previously, it would seem that higher development costs must surely be one of the major factors in a price increase (if this price increase does indeed materialize)...but to what extent is what Im curious.
The DS has, conversely, also been stated to be a platform that is easy to develop for...I am supposing they meant in a technical programming sense. Because if the development costs have risen so much as to eclipse the clearly improved manufacturing costs, and assuming there is no royalty increase over GBA games, then I am curious if developers are literally paying their employees to think. Since the DS is supposedly a friendly platform technically, the hang ups must be conceptual?

One thing that MouseClicker's comment did bring to my mind however: why is Nintendo resisting the proliferation of simple, small easy-to-play games? It seems to be the kind of game so many of their visionaries (i.e Miyamoto-san) love, and it was primarily what was on display at E3.
I tink this may be because they are worried that if they give developer's the green light to produce and market such simple games, the DS library may become flooded with this kind of software. Which would make it look more and more like a gimmicky toy...and that would likely be horrible for long term success and a sure benefit for PSP sales.

-Blackknight131

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #53 on:** July 19, 2004, 04:57:56 PM »

I think it's quite obvious the developer hasn't tried hard enough to find ideas for the DS- the simple fact that they're in a rut should say as much.

And my point in bringing up his PSP game with it's "new style of gameplay" is what about the DS is holding them back from releasing their game on it? The fact is it's nothing- in fact, his game could only benefit from the DS's extra capabilities, such as the dual and touch screen features. I think his problem is he's trying to build an entire game around using the dual or touch screen features, when what he really should be doing is looking for ways to incorporate those features into a much larger game. Don't make them the only piece to work with, make them work together in many different ways. I'm sure the DS could offer interesting and fun additions to his PSP game- in fact, I fail to see how it couldn't. He uses the analogy of blowing up a short story into a novel to describe the problem he's facing with DS games. He shouldn't be trying to enlarge one short story, he should be trying to piece together many interrelated short stories to form chapters of a single novel. Again, the problems he's facing don't exactly scream good gameplay design. I wouldn't be surprised if his PSP game turns out fairly bland.

Mumei · « **Reply #54 on:** July 19, 2004, 05:59:41 PM »

I think it's quite obvious the developer hasn't tried hard enough to find ideas for the DS- the simple fact that they're in a rut should say as much.

No, that's just stupid. Every developer gets stuck in a rut at times and they have to try to work around it. He doesn't deserve all this just because he talked openly about problems that they were having on the company website.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #55 on:** July 19, 2004, 06:13:14 PM »

Well, why can't he think of ideas? Even gamer nerds on a message board can think of ideas, why not him? As I've been saying, that doesn't scream good gameplay design- you don't pay your game designers to be stumped, especially when you have a wealth of tools at your hands. He shouldn't be looking for ways to make a game out of things like the touch and dual screen features, he should be looking for ways these features can accent a completely different idea.

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #56 on:** July 19, 2004, 06:51:20 PM »

Who is to say we are even looking at his comments in the right context....
I dont remember reading anything about either him nor other developers he mentioned being in a rut. I think he actually stated that they had many ideas...just that they couldnt develop these ideas that they have been intrigued with into a game that would justify a cost of 3800 yen - more than FFTactics Advance, more than Metroid Zero Mission, heck, even more than Boktai with its solar sensor. These are the GBA games with the highest production values.
There are prolly many games on the GBA itself that are just harder to swallow at 5-8 dollars more. I've never payed more than 29.99 before tax for a GBA game, and even then its been a while since Ive bought a GBA game retail...
Again, we definitely have to consider that DS games will likely cost more than the average GBA game. But I'm strongly under the impression that the development costs are not exorbitantly higher, the way PSP games will be in comparison to GBA games....yep, looking at the interview with Beth Llewelyn (Nintendo Director of PR) in last months Game Informer she stated that Nintendo "intends to make [the DS] easy to develop for...", relatively with console games.
Anyways, this is great discussion.

-Blackknight131

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #57 on:** July 19, 2004, 07:11:50 PM »

That's the thing- he says they have a lot of small ideas and the problem is developing them into full fledged games. I've been commenting on that for the last 2 or 3 posts.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #58 on:** July 20, 2004, 12:10:46 AM »

What's your problem? This dev stated he has many minigame ideas and he can't sell them separately because they'd not be worth the money and he can't sell them bundled because he believes he'd rip off Wario Ware then. WTF? When has ripping off ever been an excuse not to make a game? They're just acting stupid. Probably loaned their brains to Sony or something.

Blackknight: I don't get why you're complaining about prices, DS games are much cheaper than GBA games. A GBA game costs 5080 Yen, everywhere but in NA GBA games cost the equivalent 50 US dollars. The price in the US stayed the same because they couldn't adjust the price after the dollar crashed. A GC game costs 70 USD and a GBA game costs 50. It's like that in Japan, it's like that in Europe, it's like that in Australia. The dollar is too weak. The games are getting cheaper, it's just that your money is worth a lot less. Dropping the price below 30 bucks would be outright stupid, cheaper manufacturing can't outweight dev cost increases enough to warrant a price drop by 50% or more.

Blackknight131 · « **Reply #59 on:** July 20, 2004, 01:11:43 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
What's your problem? This dev stated he has many minigame ideas and he can't sell them separately because they'd not be worth the money and he can't sell them bundled because he believes he'd rip off Wario Ware then. WTF? When has ripping off ever been an excuse not to make a game? They're just acting stupid. Probably loaned their brains to Sony or something.

Blackknight: I don't get why you're complaining about prices, DS games are much cheaper than GBA games. A GBA game costs 5080 Yen, everywhere but in NA GBA games cost the equivalent 50 US dollars. The price in the US stayed the same because they couldn't adjust the price after the dollar crashed. A GC game costs 70 USD and a GBA game costs 50. It's like that in Japan, it's like that in Europe, it's like that in Australia. The dollar is too weak. The games are getting cheaper, it's just that your money is worth a lot less. Dropping the price below 30 bucks would be outright stupid, cheaper manufacturing can't outweight dev cost increases enough to warrant a price drop by 50% or more.

If it is true that games in Japan retail for that price, and this is something that I am utterly unaware of, then my point is completely undercut. It has been my assumption until now that games in Japan retail for fairly close to the equivalent amount in dollars.
...
Apparently, this is not the case as I have just checked out Toys R Us Japan. Oh well, I'm totally wrong on my assumption.
To clarify so that everyone who had the same impression as me understands, new GBA games in Japan apparently retail between 4500 - 5500 yen. Its equivalence in dollars puts that around the neighborhood of $40-50.
Assuming the same relative pricing structure is adopted in America, we will be seeing game prices roughly equivalent and possibly a little less than what we pay for brand new GBA games. That, to me, is an acceptable price for portable content. I have to thank KDR for setting me straight on this.
I like to think I get a little less stupid everyday.

-Blackknight131

News:

Author Topic: DS Gripes (Read 9649 times)