Topic: RetroActive Game #4 Poll

[Jonnyboy117]

No, it's like if you ask for a Guinness draught and instead get a Guinness can.  It's the same beer, just different packaging.  You're being esoteric.  And that's your right, but I'm not going to impose it upon everyone else with this feature.

[Stratos]

Yeah! 40 people voted! And Ninja Spirit got 4 now.
2nd is a pretty intense fight right now. All three could still walk away with the return ticket.

[Mop it up]

I'm not going to impose it upon everyone else with this feature.

I wouldn't ask for that. In the beginning I wrongly assumed it was encouraged (though not required) that people play the original games, but that's just because I believe it's the best way to experience a game's legacy. My point though, is that I don't understand (and probably never will) why anyone would think it is strange to prefer the original over a download. I don't think it is strange that you people like downloads, so it seems a bit of an insult to have my beliefs labeled as "bizarre".

As for the esoteric comment, I'm going to take that in the sense of being enlightened. 

[Jonnyboy117]

I don't mean "bizarre" as an insult.  And, cost/availability aside, I completely understand why someone would prefer the original version with all its physical accessories, original controller, and perfect operation.  What I don't understand is your assertion that you would rather not play a game at all than download it.  Maybe if the digital copy is bad as to corrupt the game's artistic delivery, but Virtual Console emulation is actually spectacular.

[Mop it up]

There's something about a download, I just can't bring myself to pay for it. If I'm spending money on something, it has to be a physical thing that I can actually hold in my grubby paws, otherwise it doesn't really feel like I own it, like it is my own. It almost feels like a counterfeit. If I were to go the route of downloading games then I'd choose PC emulation because that is free; I don't care about the legality of it. But I don't do that either because the experience of playing the original is worth paying for. If I can't get the best experience however, anything else isn't worth my time.

If you're not a collector then this probably isn't something you'd understand. We're an eccentric bunch.

[Stratos]

There's something about a download, I just can't bring myself to pay for it. If I'm spending money on something, it has to be a physical thing that I can actually hold in my grubby paws, otherwise it doesn't really feel like I own it, like it is my own. It almost feels like a counterfeit. If I were to go the route of downloading games then I'd choose PC emulation because that is free; I don't care about the legality of it. But I don't do that either because the experience of playing the original is worth paying for. If I can't get the best experience however, anything else isn't worth my time.

If you're not a collector then this probably isn't something you'd understand. We're an eccentric bunch.

I understand what you mean with having something physical. I still prefer getting a CD or game at a store as opposed to D/Ling it. Only this last year have I really begun to cave in the music department and that is only with certain bands. My favorite artists I will always buy the physical CD if possible.

I also have a strong feeling personally with regards to the legality of D/Ling games. I want to see that my money is supporting game studios and helping to ensure new efforts from them in the future. Sin and Punishment is a great example of this as Nintendo noticed that the S & P D/L was a success and that green-lighted the sequel. I Still hunt for old games on Amazon, eBay, game boutiques and at Good Will type bargain/resale stores. But if I could have the option of D/Ling Ogre Battle 64 even though I just won a copy on eBay a few weeks ago I might just do it to hopefully tell Square to make more of them.

One curious matter, you said that you feel like D/Ling a game on VC is like a counterfeit, but you are OK with D/Ling on the PC through illegal ROM emulation. I may be miss understanding you here but it sounds like you have a bit of an issue paying for the D/L. Or is this just linked to you placing the monetary value on the actual disks and carts? I'm not condemning you if you use PC ROM emulation, I'm just trying to understand what you as saying.

On a completely different note:
Jonny, how do you plan to cycle in games from previous polls? Will you just slip them into new polls over time or will you have a poll on occasion where the rejected titles collectively get a shot at victory?

[vudu]

If I'm spending money on something, it has to be a physical thing that I can actually hold in my grubby paws, otherwise it doesn't really feel like I own it, like it is my own. It almost feels like a counterfeit.

I'd like to throw a tiny wrench into your thought process and see what happens.

When you buy a game on VC Nintendo gets cash money.  When you buy the same game via eBay or used at GameStop Nintendo doesn't see a dime.  You seem passionate about owning original copies of games you love, but don't you also want to see the people responsible for those games get some benefit in the form of payment?

[Jonnyboy117]

Jonny, how do you plan to cycle in games from previous polls? Will you just slip them into new polls over time or will you have a poll on occasion where the rejected titles collectively get a shot at victory?

Good question.  I'm open to suggestions on this point.  The latter sounds like a good way to ensure that at least one of the overlooked games will be selected.

[Stratos]

Jonny, how do you plan to cycle in games from previous polls? Will you just slip them into new polls over time or will you have a poll on occasion where the rejected titles collectively get a shot at victory?

Good question.  I'm open to suggestions on this point.  The latter sounds like a good way to ensure that at least one of the overlooked games will be selected.

Then consider it suggested
Now, as to how often, maybe every four RetroActives? We don't want it to be too frequent though so maybe a bit longer?

[Mop it up]

I may be miss understanding you here but it sounds like you have a bit of an issue paying for the D/L. Or is this just linked to you placing the monetary value on the actual disks and carts?

That is correct. Like I said, if I’m spending money on something I want to physically own it. With VC games you’re essentially paying for a license to access that game for an undetermined period of time. It’s like an indefinite rental. You don’t own it, it doesn’t belong to you, and you can’t sell it if you decide you don’t want it anymore. It sort of takes away some of your rights as a consumer.

Just to clarify, I’m certainly not saying that companies don’t deserve to be paid for their works, no matter how old they may be. However, if they aren’t offering me their products in the form that I want, then they aren’t going to get my business.

Though I do not use ROMs for various reasons, personally I don’t see how they are any different than buying used games. In either case, the game companies won’t receive money for the game. Even if ROMs weren’t available, I wouldn’t purchase VC games because I don’t like downloads, so game companies aren’t losing any sales due to ROMs. In fact, if I weren’t against downloads then I would pay for VC games because they are less hassle, perfectly emulated, and can be played with multiple players.

One reason why I don’t use ROMs is the same as a  reason why I don’t steal from retail stores: if I don’t pay for a game then I don’t feel as if I earned it, like I don’t deserve it. I couldn’t enjoy it with that guilt hanging over my head. The exception to this would of course be gifts, but in that case somebody still paid for it.

When you buy a game on VC Nintendo gets cash money.  When you buy the same game via eBay or used at GameStop Nintendo doesn't see a dime.  You seem passionate about owning original copies of games you love, but don't you also want to see the people responsible for those games get some benefit in the form of payment?

If Nintendo still produced the original copies of things like N64 games then I would buy them. If they aren’t offering me the product I want then I take my business elsewhere. It’s as simple as that. Besides, Nintendo have made it abundantly clear that they don’t need my business; they’re not some independent business where a single sale makes a huge difference on their finances so I don’t feel “guilty” that they haven’t received “some benefit”, which is arguable anyway.

[Stratos]

Good points Mop It Up. I didn't think you were endorsing ROMs, but I wanted to clarify instead of assuming anything.
One reason why I don't think used game sales are the same as stealing though is because there is only one copy being passed around as opposed to a ROM that is copied and copied over a number of times and you can have an infinite number floating around. Having only one physical copy reduces this issue greatly since it can only be in one set of hands at a time.

Back to the current RA poll - The MAN-BEAM Game and Wave Race are neck and neck for second! This is intense.

[TJ Spyke]

otherwise it doesn't really feel like I own it, like it is my own.

Actually, technically you don't. If you read all the legal mumbo jumbo, you will see that you are only downloading the license to play the game and that technically you don't own the game itself (I think this was even mentioned in RFN this week).

I see no problem with downloading VC games. While some are overpriced, some are vastly cheaper than buying a physical copy (like Secret of Mana).

[Jonnyboy117]

According to the DMCA law, you don't "own" any piece of digital enertainment/software, even if you purchase it on physical media.  There is basically a blanket EULA that says you have purchased a license to play a video game on the hardware in your home, but you can't claim ownership of it in court (under certain definitions).  So legally, there is really no difference between buying a game on disc and downloading it.

[Stratos]

According to the DMCA law, you don't "own" any piece of digital enertainment/software, even if you purchase it on physical media.  There is basically a blanket EULA that says you have purchased a license to play a video game on the hardware in your home, but you can't claim ownership of it in court (under certain definitions).  So legally, there is really no difference between buying a game on disc and downloading it.

The DMCA is the Devil. I'll leave it at that.

[RABicle]

I will only allow you to talk about Secret of Mana if you tear into it for being overated tosh.

[TJ Spyke]

The DMCA is the Devil. I'll leave it at that.

I am not a huge fan of the DMCA either, but I think you understand why they passed it. It gives them more legal ammo to fight pirates and those who "back-up" their games by claiming they have a right to.

[Stratos]

The DMCA is the Devil. I'll leave it at that.

I am not a huge fan of the DMCA either, but I think you understand why they passed it. It gives them more legal ammo to fight pirates and those who "back-up" their games by claiming they have a right to.

And opens the door for people who make certain programs (virus) to sue the anti-virus companies for ruining their 'programs'.

Back to your regularily scheduled poll commentary:
It seems that any time the MAN-BEAN game get new votes, Wave race and SGNG are quick to follow suit. They are not giving any ground in this quest for a quick return bout. SoM has slowed down but it got such a lead earlier that nothing seems to be able to muster the votes to topple it. This is more exciting than political elections. And less sensitive. I like RetroActive game polls better overall.

[NovaQ]

The DMCA is the Devil. I'll leave it at that.

But I thought it was fun to stay at the... oh, wait.

[NWR_Neal]

I might participate with Secret of Mana only to reconfirm my dislike for it.
That being said, GO CHO ANIKI!!!!!!!!!

[Cambot]

Oooh, I missed the voting, but my would-be pick won.

[Jonnyboy117]

Thanks to everyone who voted.  We'll start discussing Secret of Mana on Episode 140.  Wave Race 64 will carry through (again) to the next poll, since it placed in second.  Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts and Cho Aniki will definitely be strong candidates for an upcoming "also-ran" RetroActive poll.

[TJ Spyke]

I never played Secret of Mana, so I MIGHT get it (I say might because I still haven't beat Super Mario RPG, I have yet to start Wario Land: Shake It!, and I have a bunch of DVD's I bought a few weeks ago and haven't watched).

[Stratos]

I never played Secret of Mana, so I MIGHT get it (I say might because I still haven't beat Super Mario RPG, I have yet to start Wario Land: Shake It!, and I have a bunch of DVD's I bought a few weeks ago and haven't watched).

I have a similar issue except I'll start all those games and only play for an hour and not touch it again for days or even weeks. Then I go back for another dose. Metroid games are like that where it takes a couple doses of light play before I get completely absorbed in it.

I find it interesting that no repeat game has won first yet. Incumbency doesn't seem to help much in this election.

[vudu]

Here's a great entry on Secret of Mana that Jeremy Parish just wrote for his personal site.

Go there.  Read it.  And stop voting for Secret of Mana and let me play something new for a change!!

[Jonnyboy117]

I find it interesting that no repeat game has won first yet. Incumbency doesn't seem to help much in this election.

Yes, that is interesting.  I think it's probably that a carry-over can only hope to sustain its number of votes the second time.  There's a small chance that someone will be uninterested in the new candidates and will gravitate towards the carry-over if it was previously his or her second choice.  It's more likely that some people who voted for the carry-over previously will be wooed away by one of the new candidates.  The main reason I started that policy at all is that SGnG got so many votes the first time, and there seemed to be a clamor for it to have another chance as soon as possible.