The title for this thread is quite wrong.

Anyway I'm a little pissed off that they're changing the hardware. If this change comes to North America and my Cube breaks and I have to buy a new one then I'll also have to buy a new component cable to work with my new system. It's an unlikely scenario but it still sucks. The possibility of playing SNES games with the component cable is pretty cool though.

Fixed the title thread ;-)

It looks like my VGA GameCube cable won't work with Nintendo's next system...

Ian, I found out after posting this news that SNES and N64 would not be able to output component video because they weren't designed for it. The new cable will fit in the old systems, but you won't get any picture.

why was the d-terminal analog in the first place? I have a HDTV and after seeing the substantial improvement in picture quality when switching from composite to component cables, I was surprised to read that component was analog. Or did I just misunderstand? Keep up the BS-free news, PGC!

Component video is an analog standard. For digital, you would need DVI or something like that. That's a true digital signal.

Less than 1% of GameCube users have employed the output jack for two reasons: First, they aren't available at retail. Second, most devices that actually have a component input usually only have one, and since DVD players typically don't have component input, that leaves you stuck buying some sort of switch. There's really not that many people who care to go through all that trouble.

Wow. I am one of the few 1% GameCube users who has the component cables! ^_^

I'm one of the 1% as well.

Nintendo is so F*CKING STUPID sometimes. When the cable is only available online (and that's only for the States, us Canadians have to order by phone) and is designed in such a way that third parties like Monster Cable cannot produce alternatives then OF COURSE only 1% of Cube users are going to use it. Nintendo DECIDED that this wouldn't be widely used and sure enough it hasn't. I have no idea WHY they would do this aside from the obvious "Nintendo is a huge dumbass" excuse. You know why some of us are always negative about Nintendo? It's because of STUPID SH!T like this.

You can complain about the quality of the games from the competition but at least they don't cover their eyes and blatantly ignore what doesn't interest them.

Eh, before you blame Nintendo for being the cause of so few people using component cables on the Gamecube, it might be a good idea to find out how many people use component cables on the XBox and PS2. Regardless of the reason so few people use the component cables, I'd say at this point Nintendo is entirely justified in removing the port, especially since it wasn't digital anyway and you can still use component cables on the new designs.

Besides which, who cares? We've already got our Cubes, and they've already got the ports in them.

Just a note on those who have multiple devices that connect using component jacks. I have three devices myself, and my tv only supports two. As a fix, I just use 'Y' adapters, putting my X-Box and Gamecube on the same channel. No switching switches or anything involved. I have also checked how they look without the adapters and have not noticed a difference. If anyone who reads this is interested, give it a shot. Better than buying a $100 switch for 6 devices when all you have is 3 or four.

And I must say initially I was disappointed by this news, as it's more indications of Nintendo trying to roll back time instead of embracing the possibilities of the future. But thinking about it, it is just a smart move of reducing costs. I believe that this move won't be repeated on the next generation of machines since tv's will be required to accept HD signals by 2007 (or is it 2006 now?), which should be smack in the middle of the next console's life. Most users will be using adapters for their tv, but perhaps those adapters will have input options??

Will Nintendo still be selling the digital component cable online? I've put buying it on the backburner for a long time.

" it might be a good idea to find out how many people use component cables on the XBox and PS2."

read some home theater forums and you will see that a boatload of people use component hookups for gaming, I would honestly guess it is around 35%. I just bought MVP2004 for x-box and it plays in 720P and it damn stunning on my set.
THis is just another example of Nintendo thinking technology wont catch on so they leave it out and look like idiots for it.

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read some home theater forums and you will see that a boatload of people use component hookups for gaming,

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"Eh, before you blame Nintendo for being the cause of so few people using component cables on the Gamecube, it might be a good idea to find out how many people use component cables on the XBox and PS2."

It doesn't really matter how many people actually use it for the other consoles. The important thing is that the option should be available. Nintendo has never embraced this technology and are now getting rid of it. That's the problem. They're limiting something for no reason and are adding to that list of "excuses not to buy a Cube" which is getting pretty long and is full of seemingly small insignificant stuff that Nintendo has entirely inflicted on themselves. I could tie this into online gaming but I don't need that arguement again (and this is different since there's no issue of profitability). I assure you though that since the PS2 and Xbox are more accomidating to technology geeks and allow THIRD PARTY cables to be sold in stores the percentage of users who use those cables is much greater.

Plus the real issue isn't the removal of the component hookup. The real issue is that Nintendo has spent this generation with their head in the sand blatantly ignoring any changes to the market. This is just another example of Nintendo's ignorance and shows that they aren't learning anything. Nintendo is not number one anymore and thus cannot decide what the market wants.

Ian: You'll still be able to use component cables, they'll just be DIFFERENT component cables. The port was digital in the first place, so it won't make any difference that it's gone. And considering so few people use it, I think Nintendo is jusitifed in removing it at this point. It's not limiting the Gamecube in anyway, it's just taking away a port that not only was being ignored by 99% of it's owners, but didn't do anything the other port couldn't. I really think you're overreacting- Jesus Christ man, get over it. I don't see how you can possibly form the conclusion that Nintendo is oblivious to the market just from some small problems. I agree they're things that could have been fixed, and together need to be fixed, but you need to calm down a little, let the adrenaline seep out of your body, and stop complaining. You're assuming too much from too little information. You're only focusing on the bad- one bad thing to you mars an otherwise perfect picture. Stop being such a pessimist.

And you know what? Who cares that Nintendo isn't number one anymore? And who cares if they're the cause of their own perceived limitations? All that matters is if you like their games. Gamers have become too obsessed with the fine details- we all need to learn how to just enjoy the industry's namesake, not get too caught up in the industry itself. If you're blowing up at one little news story like this, you seriously need to reconsider why you started gaming in the first place.

"Gamers have become too obsessed with the fine details, we all need to learn how to just enjoy the games."

that is a blatent crock of chit! Details are what seperate the good from the great. I have a $10,000 Home theater, and want to get the most out of it. If the component cables arent readily available, people wont buy them because of the trouble. Developers wont include 480P support because no one can get their hands on the f'in cables. It is one big circle, all formed by Nintendos stupidity. As for enjoying the games, I enjoy them a hell of a lot more in 480P or 720P with 5.1 audio, it just makes for a much more engrossing experience.

"You'll still be able to use component cables, they'll just be DIFFERENT component cables."

So like Ian said, if my cube dies, I will need to buy new cables as well. Nintendo can shove that scenerio straight up their arse. I will throw the whole thing in the garbage before I spend another nickle supporting a company that doesnt deserve my money. This is just one more reason in my "this is my last nintendo console" file.

Stop obsessing over how much money Nintendo made in the 3rd quarter of whatever, or how you'll have to buy some new component cables on the off chance your Gamecube breaks, and play a game. Up until recently I was playing my Gamecube on a 9 year old 15 inch "TV" via the crappiest R/F cables you could possibly imagine, but it didn't matter to me because I loved my games. That's what gaming is about, not the details. Stop being so superficial.

"but it didn't matter to me because I loved my games. That's what gaming is about, not the details. Stop being so superficial. "

that again is a crock of chit. I love the games as well, but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt offer the most entertaining experience possible, especially when your direct competitors do.
This isnt about being superficial, it is about getting the most out of a game. Hearing a zombie sneak up behind you before you see him, seeing the tiniest shadowy clues of a creature lurking ina dark room, this is all enhanced with resolution increases and audio capabilities. A game that is good will still be good on your 15 inch set with one speaker, it will be great on a 51 inch widescreen, in 720P with 5.1 dolby digital blaring sound. That is just the simple truth of it, especially whne game developers put these effects in game yet NIN doesnt make the nessasary tools to utilize them.

Widescreen HD TV's are selling in record numbers as are HTIB (home theater in a box) setups for 5, 6 and 7.1 surround sound. This tech is now affordable for a large number of people, a large number of which play games. Nins lack of tech to maximize this stuff (no DD support), coupled with a lack of sports and violent titles is a bad thing, I cant believe anyone could see it any differantly, especially when longevity and sustained profitability come into the picture.

So you can call it superficial all you want, I believe color TV was once laughed at and called supficial as well.

"You'll still be able to use component cables, they'll just be DIFFERENT component cables."

Is that so? Then what does THIS mean:

"Although we are not sure about the existence of a new component cable apparently planned for release in Japan, Nintendo of America has no plans for such a cable. Instead, the company will create a service whereby consumers who buy the new model may trade it in for the old model, if they desire the component video feature."

That to me sounds like NO COMPONENT INPUT period. If you buy a new Cube and want component scan you have to trade a new model for an old model. That's an even bigger pain than what we had before.

It's funny how every one accuses Nintendo of doing something stupid when Sony did the same thing back in the PS1 days. If you can remember the original PS1 had regular RCA a/v jacks in the back, (as well an s-video jack if you got one of the first versions) but Sony later removed them for a proprietary (SP) port. Me and my friends were really angry with this especially since he had a Guncon which needed the composite a/v port. We did find ways around that for the Guncon, and Sony did release that weird "a/v adapter."

I also didn't read that this would get rid of progressive scan on the GCN. I think that everyone is jumping the gun on that one. The old a/v out is fully capable of RGB and probably proscan, (since all it really revolves around is a different voltage output right?) and if not then I’m sure the newer version of the GCN will have the a/v out support it. The only problem I see with this is the auto sensing ability of the digital out port, were if you hold b it will only work if you had the component cable plugged in, but that is probably going to be fixed by an option in the GCN's internal menu.

If you ever really look at the digital a/v jack it has more pins then it actually needs, and coupled with the fact that the cables have a DAC converter in them, some people on other forums have theorized that was for digital audio which we all know the GCN doesn’t support to begin with. Maybe Nintendo was going to phase out the old port for the next gen but later decided that it would be cheaper for them to use the old port along with some standard digital audio output option, like optical or coaxial.

The only thing I find stupid about this whole thing is that NOA said they will exchange old GCNs for new ones, when it would probably be cheaper to carry the new cables instead. I think that comment was just NOA quelling fears without all the info.

This will probably make the prices of the newer version component cables go way down because there will be no need for a DAC, and without a DAC other companies like Monster and Madcatz can make third party ones.

Sorry for the long nature of this post as well as any grammar/spelling errors.

These mass-market redesigns always cut corners. It's basically a matter of making the system as cheap as possible for a bit more profit and future price drops. I remember when the top-loading NES came out, they completely got rid of some of the outputs, and as someone else said, Sony did the same type of thing with the PlayStation. The reason companies do this is because the average mass market consumer doesn't care enough about gaming to take advantage of these features. If they did, they would have gotten the system sooner.

However, this generation is a little different I think because the market is becoming less polarized. More and more of us this gen are getting second or third systems. I'm considering getting an Xbox when the price drops, and I'm going to have to order cables for it too because the included cables don't support digital audio. Xbox and PS2 owners that pick up a GameCube to play RE4 are going to be a little frustrated if they have to go through some trade-in process or order cables from Japan.

My GOD I think you people are over-reacting a bit.
Think about it for a second. Exactly how many game players do you know who have over $10,000 worth of progressive scan TV and equipment? Most of these game systems are more than likely plugged up to the smaller TV in the household, in the rumpus room or whatever it's called, probably a good chunk are still using the RF adaptor.
You are jumping to conclusions and whining just like I'd expect from IGNCube. Boo-frickity-hoo. GET OVER IT.

I occasionally bring my GameCube to my Uncle's house and play on his 50+ in. widescreen HDTV (in progressive scan). I don't have my own HDTV yet, but it's important to me to be able to get the most out of my system that I can.

I think it'd be cool if next generation, Nintendo launched with two versions of it's next gen. system. A regular mass-market one and one with a built in cable modem, extra memory slots, a built in GameBoy Player, DVD support (or something along that idea). Kind of like the Q, but with more features. A shiny, mirror-like look would be pretty sweet, too.

I won't cry over that. Why? Well, there's zero support for that port in the PAL regions, anyway. I don't know whether PAL even theoretically allows for progressive scan. Hell, I've noticed the interlacing only once and that was on our widescreen (I'm still thinking they should have gotten a normal 4:3) 100Hz TV. Because the thing apparently draws each frame multiple times, it can draw different frames at once and you can see both showing different images if there's fast movement on screen.

Canuck: You've been told like 10 times already, it's technically impossible to have a game run on Dolby Digital due to decoder delays. Those claiming DD support only have it during cuscenes (when you can predict sounds) and use Pro Logic for the rest of the game. Hell, with PLIIx games your Cube outputs a 7.1 signal! Your expensive home theatre should be able to handle that signal and give you the "entertaining experience" you desire so much.

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Originally posted by: joshnickerson
My GOD I think you people are over-reacting a bit.
Think about it for a second. Exactly how many game players do you know who have over $10,000 worth of progressive scan TV and equipment? Most of these game systems are more than likely plugged up to the smaller TV in the household, in the rumpus room or whatever it's called, probably a good chunk are still using the RF adaptor.
You are jumping to conclusions and whining just like I'd expect from IGNCube. Boo-frickity-hoo. GET OVER IT.

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KDR_11k, you do know that the Xbox has an internal DD decoder in it right, so it is very possible to have DD during gameplay, maybe not for the PS2 or GCN (for obvious reasons) but the Xbox can.

If you have a reliable link that proves me wrong then I will concede.

Well, if you decode it inside the machine you don't output a DD signal anymore, right? And that means you wouldn't have to encode it in first place (as the game itself only delivers directions, not an output signal), right? I'd guess the delay happens in your speaker-controller-thingy (is that the amp?), not the console itself, as the console could be built in a way to avoid that lag.

The soundstorm does decode DD, and it can convert so that it can use DD on a theatre set, but honestly, the mechanics involved lower the sound definitions to not much over PL2, so I really don't give a damn.

Again though, I have a higher end set picture wise (Apple cinema DVi monitor), and very very close to you in sound (7.1 THX certified), so please don't throw the "you just don't know until you've been there" idea, as it's baseless.

NOA is doing stupid, but I doubt they will stand against NCL, if NCL wants new cables, they will offer the new cables.

Here's my take on this, and I think others might agree. With a wife and kid to take care of, I only have the money for one system and games for that system. I chose Nintendo, partially because I enjoy their games, and partially because I know that I'll get visuals and audio comparable to the other systems. I know that I'll get a decent selection of third party games, even if it's not as good a selection as other systems.

That being said, I'm beginning to agree with those which say that this might be my last Nintendo console, if this "cost cutting measure" is any indication of Nintendo's direction. It's not just this one thing, it's this in connection with statements out of Japan about how "good graphics aren't important" or people "want simpler games with simpler gameplay". This all may be true - to a certain extent. As much as I love a simple game, "Luigi's Mansion" for example, I also want to play a complex fighting game, or a good sports game, or even a sim-type game. I want variety, and I want good graphics and sound. I used to be confident that I'd get that from a Nintendo console, but now...?

The thing about this announcement, is that it's one more reason for third parties to give the Cube lackluster support, or at best poor ports. "We wanted our game to be graphically superior", game developers will say, "That's why we chose not to support the Gamecube, with it's lack of Progressive scan." It might be a lame or flimsy excuse, but you know it will be used.

The thing is, despite this being billed as a "cost-cutting measure", it may end up costing Nintendo far more than they save. High definition is here to stay, heck, I just bought one three months ago! If people - meaning here, in America - see that Nintendo's console doesn't support their shiny new HDTV, while the Playstation 2 (or 3) and the Xbox (2) does, which way do you think they'll lean? I'm thinking of leaning the same way myself. I'll miss Mario and Metroid, but at this point that may not be enough.

Ok, that makes no sense...Picking HD over great gameplay? And you call yourself a gamer...

"I also want to play a complex fighting game, or a good sports game, or even a sim-type game."

If you want these games, get a different system...I hate all three of those genres, so I'm in heaven with the GC's lineup...

I don't think that makes any sense, because PL2 goes through way more proccesing then a DD signal, and if it is the reciever(amp) then those that run a video signal through them would also have a small delay on video as well. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what you mean.

Anubis: Well, I only heard it second hand from one of the local tech masters (GN or TRSF, I believe).

evilnate: A complex fighting game can very well be controlled with two or three buttons, just because capcom went completely overkill with buttons doesn't mean noone else can do it (Virtua Fighter: Kick, Punch, Guard; Soul Calibur: Vertical, Horizontal, Kick, Guard). A sim (especially flight sims) is impossible to play with ANY kind of gamepad, a joystick, throttle control and maybe a keyboard are required for getting all of those controls mapped somewhere. Sports games don't need complex controls, either. Back on the C64 we had ONE button and that was sufficient for sports games!

Here's my take:

I have a home theater system. Maybe not worth many thousands of dollars, but enough for a cool experience when I play games. Having surround sound and large image projected on a wall does make a difference when playing Gamecube games.

XBox, and to a lesser extent GC, are probably the first consoles to my knowledge to have certain developers explore the full possibilities of a home theater-type experience on a console w/high resolutions and surround sound for games. While XBox may go all the way with high definition and Dolby Digital support, the many GC games having progressive scan and Pro Logic II isn't bad either.

While I'm not exactly happy to see the digital AV port go (did Nintendo ever plan to use something for the "A" part), as long as the Cube can still support progressive scan and there will be cheaper cable options, it's not a huge deal. Yes, I'm also one the "old" Cube owners.

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Originally posted by: Bill
Ok, that makes no sense...Picking HD over great gameplay? And you call yourself a gamer...

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"I also want to play a complex fighting game, or a good sports game, or even a sim-type game."

If you want these games, get a different system...I hate all three of those genres, so I'm in heaven with the GC's lineup...

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Believe it or not, just because the Gamecube doesn't have the largest selection of games from every genre doesn't mean the games already available completely suck.

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This somehow reminds me of the PS1 and the parallel port on the back.
Although the PS1 was actually removing functionality IMO.

This is all just a pin-out folks, of which 4 are used for the regular A/V cables
- so they just need to employ 3 more and bam, you have your component out.
(the S-video stuff likely uses some other pins as well, but I'm not sure
how many)

If you ask me, this is how the cube should have been done the first time
around. Right now it's overly complicated as you need both cables to get video
and sound. I much rather have it that you only need one cable that plugs into
the A/V port with 5 RCA plugs for a component solution.

Since they've been keeping this pin-out consistent over their product line the
new cable will probably even work with the next system... if anything this is a
pseudo confirmation of exactly how the gamecube's successor will do component
output. Also, yeah you could plug this cable into your SNES and N64, but
you'll only get sound.

And if I had a component setup with an older cube and it died, the first thing
I would do is call up Nintendo and negotiate a trade up of the old to new cable
version. It might be a little bit of a headache, but nothing to the degree
that's made out on this board and definitely not as big of a headache as my
cube dying in the first place.

" it's technically impossible to have a game run on Dolby Digital due to decoder delays."

False

" Ok, that makes no sense...Picking HD over great gameplay? And you call yourself a gamer..."

He never said that, you again read only what you want to read. For me personally, I will not buy a next gen system that does not support DD and HD. As for great gameplay, there are planty of games on both the PS2 and X-box that are as good or better than any Nintendo made game.

"Exactly how many game players do you know who have over $10,000 worth of progressive scan TV and equipment? Most of these game systems are more than likely plugged up to the smaller TV in the household, in the rumpus room or whatever it's called, probably a good chunk are still using the RF adaptor. "

You dont need a 10k system, you can get a home theater in a box for under $200. I highly doubt MOST are hooked up to the smallest TV in the house anymore either, and the RF comment is really laughable. Read something other than these forums and you will find many gamers have elaborate systems to enjoy their games on. Read the AVS forums, with 150,000+ members and tell them your theory.

"If you want these games, get a different system...I hate all three of those genres, so I'm in heaven with the GC's lineup... "

good for you, but you are clearly in the gaming minority.

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For me personally, I will not buy a next gen system that does not support DD and HD.

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that again is a crock of chit. I love the games as well, but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt offer the most entertaining experience possible, especially when your direct competitors do.

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You you can call it superficial all you want, I believe color TV was once laughed at and called supficial as well.

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"How is that not choosing a hard drive over great gameplay? You're basically telling us that you'll ignore any console that does not have a hard drive regardless of games for it. In the process of trying to counter Bill you just proved him right."

HD = high Def not Hard drive. I dont feel NINs games are any better than anyone elses, so when I make my decision, I base it on many factors, Sound and visuals being important, the games being foremost, and from my point of view NIN doesnt offer me what I want in any of the three catagories.

"You ever watch I Love Lucy? Perhaps the Dick Van Dyke Show? What about The Honeymooners? Maybe you've seen Fleischer Studios' Popeye cartoons? Or Psycho? Certainly The Haunting? ANY Charlie Chaplain movie? Hell, even young Frankenstein? ALL of these are cinematic masterpieces, and ALL of these are in black and white. If you can't even recognize the beauty of such television shows and movies (some of which actually work better in black and white), then I believe I have every right to call you superficial."

Yes, I have seen most of them and cant stand them, They are not my cup of tea, nothing to do with superficial, I just dont enjoy watching them.

"You fell into the same trap you claim Bill did- you only read what you wanted to read. I never said Nintendo shouldn't offer such features, just that it doesn't make ANY difference that they don't from a gamer's standpoint. All those extra features are nice, and do enhance the game yes, but there's a reason they're called extra features and not essential features. If having digital output and the highest possible quality video is required for you to like games, Cubed, then you have some serious issues to sort out. And if that is the case, yes, you are being superficial."

I dont think these are extra features, I think SOUND and VISUALS are keys to enjoyment of a game, and the better they are, the better the experience. To say that is superficial sounds like simple jealousy because you dont have the luxury of them, so you dont feel they matter.

"I never said Nintendo shouldn't offer such features, just that it doesn't make ANY difference that they don't from a gamer's standpoint. All those extra features are nice, and do enhance the game yes, but there's a reason they're called extra features and not essential features."

Progressive Scan is an essential feature. Why? Because the other consoles have it and therefore the Cube should have it too. I wouldn't say that it's required for a good game but I would consider it a requirement for a good console. And this is different than not including a feature. It's REMOVING a feature which is much worse.

I would say that yes good games are more important than compatibility with high end equipment. But there's NO EXCUSE to not have both. Right now we have both and it's pretty sweet.

One thing I've noticed a lot of you do is take a "well it's good enough" attitude with Nintendo. As long as they have great games there's this attitude that they're allowed to make stupid mistakes. Well "good enough" is not sufficient. When I buy a console I want it to be "as good as possible". That means that features that the competition have are matched. That means that a really serious effort is made to attract as many third parties as possible and as many key games. That means flexibility in genres and themes. That means the option to use modern technology like progressive scan or online gaming. That means that as many options as possible should be available to the userbase. With all of their other consoles (including the N64) Nintendo put 110% into their consoles and did whatever they could (ie: the N64 was limited by the cartridge issue) to make it the best it could be. This "good enough" approach that they've taken with the Cube is the VERY REASON they're being matched by Microsoft, a console newcomber.

"Good enough" is not good enough and we shouldn't tolerate it. I want 110% effort from Nintendo not 80%.

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HD = high Def not Hard drive.

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I dont feel NINs games are any better than anyone elses, so when I make my decision, I base it on many factors, Sound and visuals being important, the games being foremost, and from my point of view NIN doesnt offer me what I want in any of the three catagories.

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Yes, I have seen most of them and cant stand them, They are not my cup of tea, nothing to do with superficial, I just dont enjoy watching them.

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To say that is superficial sounds like simple jealousy because you dont have the luxury of them, so you dont feel they matter.

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"This isn't about Nintendo- you said you wouldn't buy ANY console not offering HD or DD. You're probably not going to buy Nintendo's next console regardless of what features they offer, which is perfectly fine, but it shouldn't be for anything like whether or not it offers HD or DD. Cubed, you're saying yourself that unless you can play the next round of consoles with the highest possible quality sound and the highest possible quality picture, you will not play them at all. Please, explain to me how this is not being shallow?"

I dont think its shallow at all. I refuse to support a company that thinks I should settle for second rate gear because they dont feel like including it when competiton does. I also dont think Nintendo's games are good enough anymore to warrent making that sacrafice. Call it shallow all you want.

"Once again, Cubed, you have entirely missed the point of my post- I was not asking you whether or not you liked them personally but whether you were able to look beyond their lack of colors. I brought them up in your response that it was wrong for people to claim color TV was superficial, but if people honestly won't watch something because it's in black and white, then they ARE being superficial."

Again, no it isnt superficial. Who the hell decided what people should and shouldnt like or watch for whatever reason they want. I hate LUCY, not because its in black and white, but becuase I find the humor to be intollerable. You seem to be putting TV and gaming on a pedastal (sp?), I look at them as entertainment, nothing more.

"Like I said, up until recently I played all of my consoles on my 15 inch 8 year old TV via the crappiest R/F cables you could possibly imagine (or on another TV that's older than I am and has a faulty composite jack), but that didn't stop me from enjoying my games, and it wouldn't stop me if I had to give up everything I have now and go back to it, and it shouldn't stop you, either. You've become too wrapped up in all of your little extras, so much so that you actually refuse to buy a console that doesn't offer them next generation."

Again, I dont feel that NIN's games are good enough for me to make the sacrafice of buying an inferior product. The games on all 3 consoles are fairly equal, so I will choose the console that gives me the most of what i want out side of the games. As for the extras as you call them, I like them and CHOOSE to be wrapped up in them, their job is to entertain me, and the extras help in that regard.

"Are you serious? You're actually claiming I'M jealous of YOU. You're also being rather arrogant, Cubed."

I am sorry if it came off that way, not intended.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I would say that yes good games are more important than compatibility with high end equipment. But there's NO EXCUSE to not have both. Right now we have both and it's pretty sweet.

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Cubed: All I'm asking you is to look beyond the surface- don't ignore great games simply because you can't play them in with the best sound and picture. And I'm not talking about Nintendo- if you honestly don't like Nintendo's games, then I see absolutely no reason for you to buy their next console. It would be a waste of money. But, like I said, I'm not talking about Nintendo- forget Nintendo for a moment. If Sony were to not offer DD or HD on the PS3, would you ignore it as well, despite the all but certainty that you would love many of the games on the console? You said yourself you would not buy any console that didn't offer DD or HD. You continually miss my point, Cubed- I wasn't saying you SHOULD like I Love Lucy, or any of the other examples I mentioned, just that anyone who ignores them BECAUSE they're in black and white IS being superficial. I understand your desite for extra features- I share that desire, if only on a smaller scale- but don't complain when you lose them because you didn't need them in the first place.

And yes, I do place entertainment on a pedestal, because without entertainment we would all be sitting here twiddling our thumbs, except that's a form of entertainment as well.

Mouse,

If only 1 console next gen offered the features I want, then that would be the only console I would buy. I dont have the time to play 3 consoles anyway. This gen was an experiment of sorts, I have never owned anything othan a NIN console for the last 15 years, so I was curious to try the rest.

Like I say, I can find enough games on any of the three to make me happy, meaning features will make the biggest factor in my buying descision.

"Progressive Scan is an essential feature. Why? Because the other consoles have it and therefore the Cube should have it too. I wouldn't say that it's required for a good game but I would consider it a requirement for a good console."

The problem is this. My TV is a state of the art HD display device and has huge screen. It reproduces source material very, very accuratly. Crappy source = crappy picture, on a big screen this is really magnified. Games look great in 480P, and look brilliant in 720P, but in 480i they look like chit, even when upconverted via the TV. So it does take away from the experience and makes the game less fun to play. Afterall, fun is what it is about, isnt it?

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Afterall, fun is what it is about, isnt it?

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
Mouse,
The problem is this. My TV is a state of the art HD display device and has huge screen. It reproduces source material very, very accuratly. Crappy source = crappy picture, on a big screen this is really magnified. Games look great in 480P, and look brilliant in 720P, but in 480i they look like chit, even when upconverted via the TV. So it does take away from the experience and makes the game less fun to play. Afterall, fun is what it is about, isnt it?

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"Make sure your sharpness is turned all the way down when you're playing a 480i game. I had the same problem, and turning the sharpness to 0 really helped. They still don't look as good as a game in 480p, but at least they're playable, instead of being a pixilated mess."

My set is ISF calibrated and It doesnt help. On most HD sets shapness adds noise at 50% or higher, 50% or lower will cause dullness, on Toshiba sets that number is about 35% as per ISF guidelines.

Will the old composite cables that come with the systems (including the SNES, and N64) still work with the new Gamecubes?

and I think that Nintendo should still sell the "old" cubes too, just label the other ones differently and maybe make the "old" ones a little more expensive if they throw in component cables.

and NOA should start giving us alternate nameplates, I can't belive that they are making them on detachable.

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Will the old composite cables that come with the systems (including the SNES, and N64) still work with the new Gamecubes?

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I believe he means the A/V cables. I assume they would remain the same.

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker

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Afterall, fun is what it is about, isnt it?

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You keep giving me easy stuff to use, Cubed. Yes, fun is what it's about- if you'll ignore fun because it doesn't look or sound as good as possible, then yes, you are being shallow. I've really said all I can say, Cubed, and I'm guessing you've said all you can say- let's not spam this thread any more than we already have.

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Yes, all of the A/V cables work on each NTSC console.

There are a few exceptions though, the NES does not have the same a/v output as the other Nintendo systems, (The NES2 does not even have A/V out) The SNES2 does not send out an S-video signal for some odd reason, and the N64 does not send out RGB.(which wouldn't matter anyway in NTSC regions unless you wanted to mod it to get a better signal)

I don't know that much about the PAL video standard, so if you live in a PAL region then disregard everything I just said.

If he does mean RCA cables, then the ones that came with the N64 and Gamecube should work fine.

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I'm sorry mouse but if he does not have fun playing a game because it looks bad to him, then that is his perogitive. We all have our own tastes, and for people to say that someone is shallow because they like things to look better, is like calling someone shallow because he likes the cinematography more than a plot in a movie. Both veiws are valid, neither more than the other, because these are forms of entertainment.

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Very true Mouse, I didn't even think of your opinion of his opinion was an opinion, thanks for showing me the light.

BTW I'm not trying to be sarcastic, sorry if it came off that way.

BTW if anyone would like to know the pinouts for the analog A/V out for most Nintendo systems, to see what it is capable of, this sight has the info:

Games X

This site also has a lot of other cool information, like how to mod systems for RGB output and how to make your own joysticks, if you are interested anyway.

If I had the option of getting a third party game (such as Soul Callibur II) for a system that supports higher resolution and digital surround sound rather than one with lower resolution and analog sound, I'd go for the one that supports the better features. It's the same game (ignoring one exclusive character per game) but one looks and sounds better. Currently, I don't have an HDTV. Additionally, when I chose to get a GameCube rather than an XBox or PS2 I didn't have a surround sound system (but I do now). So, for the time being, any game will end up running in 480i for me. But by the time the next generation starts, I most likely will have an HDTV. If a majority of the games I get will look better on another system, it would be foolish not to get the superior system and better looking versions of the games.

I don't get it..... why does everyone think functionality is being removed....
It's just being moved from the D connector to the standard A/V connector. You
still have the component out... Now if NOA decides not to stock/support the new
cable, well then _access_ to this feature has been removed... I think the
NOA update is just a quick response to the Japan announcement, and should be
taken with a grain of salt.

Shecky is new, but Shecky is wise.

Seriously everyone, this argument is a HUGE over-reaction. If you don't want to trade-in, just import the cable.

I understand mouseclicker's point of view that it's silly not to play a game just because it doesn't have special features -- I mean most of us don't have any problems playing GBA right? Still I prefer to use the most immersive sound option available (HDTV I won't be concerned about until sets are $500) I don't think it would be good for Nintendo to stop progressing with the new technologies. Nintendo has always pushed for the best sound options widely available, and I hope they get Dolby Digital up and running next-gen.

Speaking of DD, I want to clear up some confusion with that. The problem is encoding not decoding Digital that led Factor 5 and Nintendo to choose PLII instead. Decoding is done by the home theater, and as someone noted, is no problem at all. However, encoding the signal is apparently more taxing than PLII, causing a relative delay in the sound. Some Xbox developers have it running in-game though, which is probably a combination of the machine's extra horsepower and some tricky programming. I think that with the next set of processors, it won't be as much of a problem.

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Speaking of DD, I want to clear up some confusion with that. The problem is encoding not decoding Digital that led Factor 5 and Nintendo to choose PLII instead. Decoding is done by the home theater, and as someone noted, is no problem at all. However, encoding the signal is apparently more taxing than PLII, causing a relative delay in the sound. Some Xbox developers have it running in-game though, which is probably a combination of the machine's extra horsepower and some tricky programming. I think that with the next set of processors, it won't be as much of a problem.

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Something popped up in my head about progressive scan support.

How hard is it for a developer to include that feature in games? Is it easy to implement, or time consuming?

I'd guess it causes a severe performance impact (the only thing I can compare is Homeworld since there's no 480p equivalent in PAL). If your game is near the limit upping the res could kill the framerate.

I vote for a "Canuck vs. Clicker Arena" forum, where CC and MC can talk their arguements out and other users can throw things into the ring...

And, erm, is there any noticeable difference between DD and DPLII?

i always thought that the difference was a slight, if at all resolution change (720x480?) and and change to the way it was drawn. I don't remember though for sure..... its been awhile since I've had the problem.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I'd guess it causes a severe performance impact (the only thing I can compare is Homeworld since there's no 480p equivalent in PAL). If your game is near the limit upping the res could kill the framerate.

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"And, erm, is there any noticeable difference between DD and DPLII"

yes, there is a huge differance., and with high end recievers and speakers those differances are magnified even greater.
Sound is clearly delivered to the intended speaker, giving a true sense of direction that the sound is coming from, again on a good system this makes an enormous differance.

"720p and 1080i are higher resolutions, which is why in some XBOX games there is a performance hit when using these modes."

I have never noticed such a hit. I played MLB 2004 all night Saturday in 720P and played flawlessly smooth with a picture quality that blew everyone who was over away.

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
"720p and 1080i are higher resolutions, which is why in some XBOX games there is a performance hit when using these modes."

I have never noticed such a hit. I played MLB 2004 all night Saturday in 720P and played flawlessly smooth with a picture quality that blew everyone who was over away.

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"Of course there isn't a true widescreen option when you're running in that mode either."

thats ok, the Toshiba I have has the BEST stretch modes available. TW1 stretch looks as if it were true widescreen.

"Well, I did say "some"! Although a buddy of mine's got it for the XBOX, and he was playing it on 720p and I did notice some choppiness over my Cube version. We bumped it down to 480p and voila - the framerate drops went away. At least for that game it's a trade-off, it looks fantastic in 720p, but there are some hiccups, especially on throws to the plate from the outfield. At least from what I saw."

I have to admit I rarely notice frame rate drops unless they are signifigant such as in TRUE CRIME.

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
"Of course there isn't a true widescreen option when you're running in that mode either."

thats ok, the Toshiba I have has the BEST stretch modes available. TW1 stretch looks as if it were true widescreen.

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hmmmm, you are correct. I know I cant stretch HD sattalite, it always reverts to NATURAL mode. I never looked at X-box in the same light when I should have. ALl my 720P games are WS so I have never had to think about it.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I vote for a "Canuck vs. Clicker Arena" forum, where CC and MC can talk their arguements out and other users can throw things into the ring...

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I'm allergic to popcorn unless it has exactly one metric ton of butter/ kernel. And I have to eat it with Mello Yello. On a Thursday. When there is no baseball game. But someone should sell tickets for the show.

30FPS might not be impacted by progscan, but 60FPS will clearly be. Since each frame would have to be only half of the lines, you don't need to render the other half, saving performance. Progscan would demand you to render the WHOLE picture every time, that might be a reason some games don't support it.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
30FPS might not be impacted by progscan, but 60FPS will clearly be. Since each frame would have to be only half of the lines, you don't need to render the other half, saving performance. Progscan would demand you to render the WHOLE picture every time, that might be a reason some games don't support it.

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If a game is running at 60 FPS (i.e. 60 images per second) that does not mean the TV displays two fields per game-frame. Displaying 120 fields per second would toast your TV. Keep in mind that FPS here means "images output by the game", not "full screens drawn by the TV". The framerate of the game can slow down under high load, the framerate of the TV is constant.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If a game is running at 60 FPS (i.e. 60 images per second) that does not mean the TV displays two fields per game-frame. Displaying 120 fields per second would toast your TV. Keep in mind that FPS here means "images output by the game", not "full screens drawn by the TV". The framerate of the game can slow down under high load, the framerate of the TV is constant.

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Originally posted by: evilnate
You're correct, but my point is that if a game is running at 60fps, the console has to render then entire frame, which contains all the information for two fields.

60fps = a refresh rate of 120hz (120 fields/60 frames per second)
30fps = a refresh rate of 60hz (60 fields/30 frames per second)

If the console was only rendering half of the image every 1/60th of a second, then it's actually running at 30fps, not 60, and you wouldn't get the added smoothness that a game running at 60fps provides.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k

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Originally posted by: evilnate
You're correct, but my point is that if a game is running at 60fps, the console has to render then entire frame, which contains all the information for two fields.

60fps = a refresh rate of 120hz (120 fields/60 frames per second)
30fps = a refresh rate of 60hz (60 fields/30 frames per second)

If the console was only rendering half of the image every 1/60th of a second, then it's actually running at 30fps, not 60, and you wouldn't get the added smoothness that a game running at 60fps provides.

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No. Just plain No. There are games that run at 60FPS for the Cube, but thoe don't overclock your TV to 120Hz (which is dangerous). Those games deliver one frame per field. 60 half-images/sec appears smoother than 30 full images/sec because each frame of a movement is visible for less time.

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1. Games are locked at the screen refresh rate. It's called VSync and is meant to avoid showing the top half of one frame and the bottom half of another.
2. If you don't have to render all 480 lines you wouldn't do it. Unless there's a deficiency in the hardware of the Gamecube itself preventing this the other half won't be rendered. One of the first things done to improve a game's performance is removing unnecessary work (like rendering the other half of the frame). Why would they want to render the other half, anyway?