Oh my god!
=D

I remember this Zelda info being "confirmed" earlier on before Reggie (I think it was him) made a comment that suggested otherwise. The way we've been switching back and forth it might be a good idea to assume nothing until we see Nintendo demonstrate the remote with Zelda.

Though I want to know why remote support is "one of the most important features" for a Gamecube game.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I remember this Zelda info being "confirmed" earlier on before Reggie (I think it was him) made a comment that suggested otherwise. The way we've been switching back and forth it might be a good idea to assume nothing until we see Nintendo demonstrate the remote with Zelda.

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Maybe it's not so important to the gameplay, but I'm sure it's important to Nintendo. It's important because it justifies the idea of buying a GameCube game to play on the Rev. Think of it as a gateway game for those who never got a Cube. It'll validate the idea of playing GameCube games on the Rev and make sure that almost everyone buying one at launch knows about the backward compatibility and is willing to use it. And the features will get a lot of people to unofficially add it to the list of Rev launch titles (assuming it's released at right about the same time as the Rev) making the Rev launch lineup look even more impressive.

From a gameplay perspective... I don't see how it could be used for much more than fishing without completely unbalancing gameplay that is designed for a typical controller. Guess we'll see.

“I would say that we are progressing well with completing it," says Miyamoto. “And one of the most important features is that, because Revolution can run GameCube software, when you play Twilight Princess on Revolution you can take advantage of the Revolution controller."

There it is, FINALLY.

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Though I want to know why remote support is "one of the most important features" for a Gamecube game.

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By the way, this doesn't necessarily mean that Zelda and Revolution will launch at the same time. Zelda could still come out first with this support, as long as the controller interface is quite finalized by then.

What is really funny about this is we had semi-confirmation about this along time ago.

Remember the after the second delay of the game it was stated one of the reasons for the delay was because they got the green light to add new gameplay elements that was being reserved for the next Zelda game.

Well, what would be reserved for the next Zelda game except for perhaps Revolution controls. For the most part Zelda games have a very simple game concept, design and themes...so I don't see what could have been so special that it left out for the Revolution except controller support.

Now I have a decision to make though. Do I play the game first on the Cube and experience traditional Zelda or do I play it first on the Revolution and finally experience a new truly unique Zelda game experience.

I think I am going to wait for the Revolution to play this game now.

"Maybe it's not so important to the gameplay, but I'm sure it's important to Nintendo. It's important because it justifies the idea of buying a GameCube game to play on the Rev."

That makes sense though I still don't like the idea of using a Cube game to try to sell Revs. When I asked that question I was thinking more in terms of gameplay since that's what I consider important so it's the first thing I thought of. Logically it can't be too important to the actual game or they'll break the game for Cube owners. But that's kind of what I'm worried about. I hope that all he means is that it's important from a business point of view.

I'm sure that's what he means.

Otherwise, he'd have to be implying that Zelda wouldn't work with the cube but the Rev fixes it, despite it being in development for the cube for years.

Zelda having Revolution controls is good Gamecube and good for the Revolution.

For one, it is still on the Gamecube which will help support the system which could have used this game a long time go. But it also helps because it is a Gamecube game people will want to play on the Revolution for the new functions, and as such it helps remind gamers hey I can play Gamecube games on this system. In doing so newcomers to the Revolution may pick up older Gamecube games they heard about but didn't ever play or buy.

This helps the Revolution as well because now it technically has a new launch title in the form of Zelda...a series that is one of the most popular and beloved franchises ever.

Nintendo is doing something very smart here.

This actually caught me off-guard, wasn't expecting it. Interesting news, but I hope the delay was so they could do more to the game than just this.

I'll still probably play the game with the Gamecube controller, as it's sort of the last vestige of this control scheme (as far as Zelda is concerned, and probably Nintendo, and therefore probably me). But I'll definitely try it with Rev controls, after beating it.

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
This actually caught me off-guard, wasn't expecting it.

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
In doing so newcomers to the Revolution may pick up older Gamecube games they heard about but didn't ever play or buy.

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I guess this is confirmation that the GC is dead and they don't trust Zelda to sell well on it alone. Nintendo says time to move on to the "new" generation.

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
I guess this is confirmation that the GC is dead and they don't trust Zelda to sell well on it alone. Nintendo says time to move on to the "new" generation.

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
I guess this is confirmation that the GC is dead and they don't trust Zelda to sell well on it alone. Nintendo says time to move on to the "new" generation.

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It's more a statement that they don't trust Revolution to sell without a big name like Zelda.

But companies like Nintendo are always very eager to convince people to move on to the next generation. They need to recoup R&D and initial manufacturing costs as quickly as possible, as well as establish a large installed base to secure future software development.

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"It's more a statement that they don't trust Revolution to sell without a big name like Zelda."

Wait... isn't that worse? I would hope they have a little more faith in their own launch lineup.

If Zelda can sell a few extra Revs that's good. But the Rev should not rely on a Gamecube game to sell. It's screwed if it is. The Rev concept has to be good enough to stand on it's own.

Maybe, like a baby learning to walk on its own, the revolution must be stood up by a parent first?

Edit: Kinda like a shuttle can orbit the earth on its own, but it needs a rocket to get there first

" R U Serious!? This has been rumored since the first delay and halfway confirmed by NGC magazine a few months ago but was later denied. Now it is confirmed(expect it to be written off as a translation error later ) and I think everyone here was expecting this(except for you) "

I was aware of the rumors. I'm not all that surprised, I just wasn't sure if they'd do it, and I definitely didn't expect the announcement from out of nowhere.
Also, I'm constantly denying "Twilight Princess will be a Rev only game" rumors, so I instinctively related the two somehow, which threw me for a loop.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"It's more a statement that they don't trust Revolution to sell without a big name like Zelda."

Wait... isn't that worse? I would hope they have a little more faith in their own launch lineup.

If Zelda can sell a few extra Revs that's good. But the Rev should not rely on a Gamecube game to sell. It's screwed if it is. The Rev concept has to be good enough to stand on it's own.

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Ian, it isn't about how the Revolution needs Zelda, it's about how Zelda can further leverage the revolution.

Remember, Nintendo is really giving this gen a go and they'll need all the help they can get. It would be prideful and careless of them to let TP and its 2+ years of work be just a GC game when the GC has been all but forgotten. If Nintendo really intends to play hardball this generation, then Zelda forward compatibility would only go further to indicating Nintendo's earnest attempts at console success rather than what you perceive.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

This caught me off guard because Nintendo said about four hundred times that it was not the case. I don't care if it was rumored months ago, I trusted Reggie and Miyamoto and Iwata when they denied it.

Although now that I think of it, they were all pretty shifty and only said "It will remain a GameCube game," which it will. Bastards.

This news was pretty much a given after Zelda was delayed till fall.

I think this just shows Nintendo is committed to making the Revoluton launch it's best launch ever.

btw, I also believe that Nintendo will beef up the graphics for the Zelda game when played on the Rev.

LEGEND OF ZERUDA: TWILITE FLOP

Something is not right here.

Didn't Reggie just say that you CAN NOT use (The) Revolution controller to play GameCube games? This leads me to think something else. Sonic and Knuckles lock on Technology. What if Zelda:TP Came with 2disc but it's really only one. The 8cm GameCube has 5 small points on it so it can fit in side a 4cm ring to make a 12cm disc for Revolution Gameplay. Its not that hard and the 12cm disc would still be sturdy and flush. I don't know how to explain it better but that's whats going to happen. And I'm taking all bets.

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Originally posted by: Nile Boogie
Something is not right here.

Didn't Reggie just say that you CAN NOT use (The) Revolution controller to play GameCube games? This leads me to think something else. Sonic and Knuckles lock on Technology. What if Zelda:TP Came with 2disc but it's really only one. The 8cm GameCube has 5 small points on it so it can fit in side a 4cm ring to make a 12cm disc for Revolution Gameplay. Its not that hard and the 12cm disc would still be sturdy and flush. I don't know how to explain it better but that's whats going to happen. And I'm taking all bets.

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"*cough* PS2 *cough* ! In other words Ian, before you type think about it again, and again, and again, and again..."

The PS2 was the follow up to one of the most successful consoles ever made. It sold out at launch because of hype and shortages. By the time shortages weren't a problem its one next-gen competitor had pulled out of the race and it had months go by without any competition. Then when the competition did arrive it had an insane barrage of killer games that dwarfed the competition. This included a game called Grand Theft Auto III which no one thought would be a big hit.

Last time I checked the Rev doesn't have any of these incredibly fortunate scenarios which are the real reason why the PS2 was so successful. I doubt the million or so people who actually owned a PS2 for the first six months bought the system for Final Fantasy IX.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Wait... isn't that worse? I would hope they have a little more faith in their own launch lineup.

If Zelda can sell a few extra Revs that's good. But the Rev should not rely on a Gamecube game to sell. It's screwed if it is. The Rev concept has to be good enough to stand on it's own.

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I still have to marvel at the success of games as crappy as the GTA series.
Though I will confess to liking the second one.

"When you have proof that it isn't (ie you've played all the Rev launch titles), then you can make claims like this."

I didn't make any claims. I was just responding to what Jonny said.

Wait a second, why are we discussing Rev control for Twilight? We are missing the biggest news in this article, and that is....KOOPA KIDS in SMB DS!

I thought the Koopa Kids news came out yesterday, or maybe two days ago.
How come I got that snippet yesterday, but not the Twilight Princess Rev bit? Two different interviews?

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"*cough* PS2 *cough* ! In other words Ian, before you type think about it again, and again, and again, and again..."

The PS2 was the follow up to one of the most successful consoles ever made. It sold out at launch because of hype and shortages. By the time shortages weren't a problem its one next-gen competitor had pulled out of the race and it had months go by without any competition. Then when the competition did arrive it had an insane barrage of killer games that dwarfed the competition. This included a game called Grand Theft Auto III which no one thought would be a big hit.

Last time I checked the Rev doesn't have any of these incredibly fortunate scenarios which are the real reason why the PS2 was so successful. I doubt the million or so people who actually owned a PS2 for the first six months bought the system for Final Fantasy IX.

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"So what I'm getting at is that if you think what Nintendo is doing is such a screwed-up idea than think twice again because Sony did the same and is doing it again because it will bring them sales, Nintendo is using that same strategy which is bound to give $$$, and that strategy will work even better because they will use a flagship title to help the REV sales."

The Rev is trying to sell a new concept though. The concept is very important since the hardware isn't apparently on par with the competition and without it the Rev's just an underpowered "normal console". So the launch lineup better do a good job of selling that concept. I'm not saying that Zelda won't help Rev sales or that's it's not a good idea. What I'm saying is that the Rev can't sell on Zelda alone and Nintendo shouldn't expect it to. The launch titles still have to deliver or at least some of them do.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The Rev is trying to sell a new concept though. The concept is very important since the hardware isn't apparently on par with the competition and without it the Rev's just an underpowered "normal console". So the launch lineup better do a good job of selling that concept. I'm not saying that Zelda won't help Rev sales or that's it's not a good idea. What I'm saying is that the Rev can't sell on Zelda alone and Nintendo shouldn't expect it to. The launch titles still have to deliver or at least some of them do.

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Damn.. I know it was all but confirmed, but still..

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Originally posted by: Nile Boogie
Something is not right here.

Didn't Reggie just say that you CAN NOT use (The) Revolution controller to play GameCube games? This leads me to think something else. Sonic and Knuckles lock on Technology. What if Zelda:TP Came with 2disc but it's really only one. The 8cm GameCube has 5 small points on it so it can fit in side a 4cm ring to make a 12cm disc for Revolution Gameplay. Its not that hard and the 12cm disc would still be sturdy and flush. I don't know how to explain it better but that's whats going to happen. And I'm taking all bets.

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will they have this at e3? i mean.. playing zelda with the rev controller?

Pro summed up my thoughts nicely.

EDIT: Actually, I still don't believe it. Miyamoto is a liar!

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Originally posted by: IceCold
Damn.. I know it was all but confirmed, but still..

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I don't understand the Nintendo hate. They haven't said this means that content is locked except for on the revolution...

We are former nintendo fans.

This is cheap, plain and simple, For instance I was thrilled about Metroid Prime 3, but it seems Nintendo is ok with just putting remote functionality on a game like Metroid Prime 2. This cast a shadow of doubt of the kind of software they are going to put as a first party on the Rev. Its like they really see the remote as just a gimm!ck, not a new way to play games.

at least Ill get this game, sadly knowing their promises of their exclusive focus on making the ultimate traditional Zelda game were bullsh1t. Ill of course wait and see before dismissing the Revolution, but the usual hype I had for Nintendo's excellent first party titles is absolutely gone.

Were people bent out of shape when Zelda DX could be played on a regular GB, but got the extras if you played on the GBC? Were people crying when they found out that they could only get some extra goodies if you plugged the oracles games on the GBA? Anybody?

New Super Mario Bros has piqued my interest. Mushrooms to make you smaller? What next?

omg! of course, the GB and GBC were so radically different that the case is comparable with this one :rolleyes:

Mushrooms that make you stay the same size!

mantidor doesn't make sense to me.

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For instance I was thrilled about Metroid Prime 3, but it seems Nintendo is ok with just putting remote functionality on a game like Metroid Prime 2

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Im not going to explain it again :/ its such a long rant, but long story short, imagine putting in a Link to the Past analog stick functionality, the analog stick would be completly wasted, if they just make a normal Metroid Prime game, the potential of the controller would be wasted, and the result would be a gimm!ck, just like analog stick on a 2D zelda game.


"Oh, unless you think Nintendo is ACTUALLY going to release an upgraded Metroid Prime 2 for the Rev as a new game."

yup, yup, thats what Im fearing. They think that the idea alone is ok since they are doing it with Twilight Princess.


I mean, the idea of applying remote functionality to old gameplay ideas instead of new ones, what Ian always says, replacing button presses for gestures, because thats basically all they can do for Twilight Princess unless they revampe the whole game and forget about its GC counterpart, which will also piss me off to no end.

Miyamoto said that you can fire the bow and arrow in TP with the revmote.

OH NO HAND GESTURS FOR BUTTON PRESSES?!?

No, he said that you point to aim, and press a button (omg digital!) to shoot.


By the by, you're totally overreacting.

So there's going to be two difficulties... easy free aiming with the revmote, or clumsy slower aiming with the GC stick. Why even bother playing the GC version? Are they going to make the enemies harder to accompany this new control scheme? They are juggling fire here.

Also, Metroid Prime 3 is going to make Twilight Princess its bitch, releasing at the same time with REAL next gen graphics and REAL next gen controls.

Mario mentions exactly my point, changing bow aiming should happen along with a whole change of the enemies you shoot. Besides, what a waste, bow with the remote could be done also using the depth detection, and you could actually pull the controller like you'd pull a real bow, affecting the distance and speed of the arrow.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Mario mentions exactly my point, changing bow aiming should happen along with a whole change of the enemies you shoot. Besides, what a waste, bow with the remote could be done also using the depth detection, and you could actually pull the controller like you'd pull a real bow, affecting the distance and speed of the arrow.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Mario mentions exactly my point, changing bow aiming should happen along with a whole change of the enemies you shoot. Besides, what a waste, bow with the remote could be done also using the depth detection, and you could actually pull the controller like you'd pull a real bow, affecting the distance and speed of the arrow.

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"And then you'd whine about normally digital controls being spoiled by inherently inaccurate systems such as "how much depth is enough" for firing an arrow.

What was the last zelda game after LTTP that requires insanely precise bow and arrow usage such that the revmote would present a significant advantage? None."

I never said that it should be precise, and the first person aiming is precise enough if used with the remote. Its about the inmersion, Miyamoto said that in games like LttP you didnt press a button to move a lever, you actually grabbed the lever and pull it, is the same in this case, the puzzles and enemies would never require insane precision, but the added inmersion, interactivity with the world and gameplay posibilities for arrows with varying speed and angles would make the gameplay experience better. The game would never require the player to throw an arrow a few Km/h faster than the previous arrow shooted, Things can be completly intuitive for the player, but probably a pain in the ass for the developer who has to program it, but hey, the remote and the new "intuitive" ways of playing was Nintendo's idea in the first place.

"Four posts ago, you were unloading a pile of pessimism and disdain which would make Ian blush with envy...

...and NOW you're making suggestions as to how the Revmote could have been better used with TP?

Huh?"

Im not making suggestions about TP, Im making suggestions for the Zelda game that will be made for the revolution, implementing this on TP would be stupid because it would be just a shiny new way of shooting arrows. Unless they add puzzles and enemies that are related to varying speeds and angles of arrows, which again would be another slap for the GC version.

The remote functionality should be implemented in a Zelda game made from the ground up for the Revolution, not crammed in a last gen game thats constructed around a traditional way of playing games. I cant say this enough.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Im not making suggestions about TP, Im making suggestions for the Zelda game that will be made for the revolution, implementing this on TP would be stupid because it would be just a shiny new way of shooting arrows. Unless they add puzzles and enemies that are related to varying speeds and angles of arrows, which again would be another slap for the GC version.

The remote functionality should be implemented in a Zelda game made from the ground up for the Revolution, not crammed in a last gen game thats constructed around a traditional way of playing games. I cant say this enough.

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"Are we sure that this is all we can expect?"

No, of course not, thats why Ill wait and see, but Nintendo thinks this is good enough reason to delay the game and to deny their GC fanbase a complete product, which worries me because I dont think that TP will be that much better with the remote, and as a GC owner I feel cheated which make all pessimistic right now.

Basically there's no point putting Revolution controls in this, unless it's substantially different to playing it on GC, and in that case it should be a whole new game.

Hey you don't have to play it on the REv. Why are you guys whining about this? You can play just on the GC and pretend it has no Rev controls.

***************
Some of you will whine no matter which way the cards fall.

1. Zelda only launched on the 'cube. Nintendo are idiots for releasing their big franchise on a dead platform. They have no business sense and that's why they are in last place.

2. Keep promise to 'cube owners, but also position the title to help sell Revolutions. Gall damnit, they are delaying a game and disappointing 'cube owners. The functionality they add might mean some different content in there that's only played on the Rev. They'll have to do 2 versions. If it's just just sword swinging that would be dumb. OMG. WtF. We're not Nintendo fans any longer. This will just make the Revolution seem old. No wonder they are in last place.

3. Nintendo positions Zelda:TP for just a Rev release. What a bunch of liars. I have no faith in them. They promised us it would be out on the 'Cube and now they lied. Their promises for the Revolution are just bunch of lies too. No wonder they are in last place in America.

This is the kind of thinking some folks on this board exhibit. If you're always looking for the half-empty cup then you'll always find it.

Oh what a bunch of cry babies these forums have developed. A few months without any useful info on anything Zelda or REV related and they all go haywire just because of one tiny infinitesimal bit about something that supposedly is coming out in 8 months. Relaaaaaaaaaaaaax! Chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil! And enjoy what you already have! Me? oh, I can't wait for the new Zerda and ReVo but you won't see me being a Maury's histerical female that can't find who impregnated her among 30 man lol.

Nintendo screwed themselves when they announced it for the GCN..

Sooo... Twilight Princess has shifted from being the GameCube's swan song, to the final nail in it's coffin. Or maybe it's both. Good to know. I was wondering what was going claim that second honor.

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Were people bent out of shape when Zelda DX could be played on a regular GB, but got the extras if you played on the GBC?

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“I told that we really don’t need any story behind this new Super Mario Bros. at all. I have narrowed down the whole story to about half of what my team originally came up with. Peach is kidnapped, Mario has to go and rescue her from Bowser and the Koopa Kids. That’s about all you need to know for the story!" he laughs.

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix


Shigeru Miyamoto: Developers don't want deep storylines.

Takashi Tezuka: *writes two sentences of plot*

Shigeru Miyamoto: I said... Developers don't want deep storylines. *grabs an eraser*

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix
Sooo... Twilight Princess has shifted from being the GameCube's swan song, to the final nail in it's coffin. Or maybe it's both. Good to know. I was wondering what was going claim that second honor.

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Were people bent out of shape when Zelda DX could be played on a regular GB, but got the extras if you played on the GBC?

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People complained about paying good money to buy Link's Awakening, only to have it become obsolete and be replaced by Link's Awakening DX, a game whose "most important feature" was that it was enhanced for a just-released system which most people didn't have yet.

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Originally posted by: Caliban

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix


Shigeru Miyamoto: Developers don't want deep storylines.

Takashi Tezuka: *writes two sentences of plot*

Shigeru Miyamoto: I said... Developers don't want deep storylines. *grabs an eraser*

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LMAO! Half a sentence would be enough for a Mario game.

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Mantidor, you still realize that it will be playable on Gamecube, right? With a Gamecube controller? Or on Rev with a revmote or a GC controller?
It's not as if it's remote only, you have the OPTION to use either. I think it's excellent.
I'll just be pissed if they didn't improve on every other aspect of the game during the interval, to make it flawless. But I can't imagine that some altered programming and reworking would take all that time.

You guys remember that one presentation? Miyamoto obviously upset the tea table that had Mario's plot on it. The way it happens in my imagination is he strides into the room with that E3 Master Sword in hand and, in the blink of an eye, slices the table and plot neatly in half while screaming something cool in Japanese. And then he glares at everybody in the room till they all look away, then he leaves in dignified silence to tend to his garden.

Anyway, I'm undecided on this issue. Need to know more about the Zelda Rev controls.

Link's Awakening DX was a case of double-dipping by putting out recycled content with an optional revolutionary feature.

The Advance store in the Oracle games was a case of deliberately withholding content in order to reward those who buy certain hardware. (This was also just about the only thing that "connectivity" ever offered.)

Twilight Princess is a case of the GameCube being brain-dead with a respirator and a feeding tube, and Nintendo saying "Hold on! It still has some life in it. There are still some things that only it can do. Amazing things! Wait for it. Wait for it. A little longer. Oh by the way, other devices can do this task. Do it better even. Wait for it. Wait for it. Hey, wait a minute, where are you going?"

And the last one is made even more amusing by the fact that everyone saw it coming, and most people even seemed to think it made sense, and were warming up to the idea, but Nintendo swore up and down that this wasn't the case, and made fools of the people who claimed to have inside information. And now the joke's on Nintendo.


BTW, just in case I need to say it, I don't really have a problem with the three tactics mentioned above.

BTW, there's another complaint that GameCube owners might have that I don't think has been addressed yet.

Twilight Princess was in development for three years, with an existing game engine no less. And a couple months before it was set to come out, indications are that they hadn't even written the plot yet. Which is typical for Nintendo, and is exactly the sort of thing that was wrong with Wind Waker.

Then they delayed the game for a year, and we were led to believe that they were actually going to spend this entire time building content, which is so refreshing unlike Nintendo, and would apparently make Twilight Princess an unprecedently grand experience, not just within Nintendo, but the entire videogame world.

So, how much time does it take to implement Revmote control, break an entire videogame design, and then fix it again?

who cares, people like rereleases
go have a look at ign with there review of metal gear solid 3 LE
added a new camera view, 2 nes roms and a boss mode, pal expert mode... suddenly its godlike and worth rebuying

I personally believe this has potential to be a great way to show Revolutions potential if implemented correctly. There is no doubt in my mind that the controls will be just as, if not more solid, in TP with the GC controller as previous consoles. This added feature of Revolution control could potentially show people how archaic the current controllers are when it comes to immersion and prescision control within an already great game like TP. Granted this all depends on how it is implemented, but until we have played the game I think it is silly to condemn Nintendo.

This is excellent news. Not sure how people are construing it to be bad, let alone suddenly losing interest in zelda/the rev. You guys are like the people who complain about classic movies getting 5.1 mixes even when the original mono is included on the disc. But to each his own.

Mario:
So there's going to be two difficulties... easy free aiming with the revmote, or clumsy slower aiming with the GC stick. Why even bother playing the GC version? Are they going to make the enemies harder to accompany this new control scheme? They are juggling fire here.

Look at Wind Waker. Do you think Nintendo will do anything to make TP challenging in any form?

Paladin:
Anyway, I'm undecided on this issue. Need to know more about the Zelda Rev controls.

Would you be upset if it turned out TP includes minigames you can play online?

Don't you even joke about it.

Considering 3 or 4 people at Retro Studios rigged up Metroid Prime 2 to work with the Revolution controller in about 2 weeks, I think the over 100 people, maybe 200 people on Team Zelda can handle adding Revolution control while properly "finishing" the game at the same time. Especially with the additional year of time to work on it.

One thing about Link's Awakening that's different than this is that Link's Awakening DX came out five years after the original game. That's a lifetime in game years and I think that makes a key difference.

I agree that Nintendo make a mistake in how they approached this. We were all in a funk about the Cube and then at E3 Nintendo surprised the crap out of us. "It's okay. We know the Cube isn't doing too well but we've got this game to make up for all of it. This is going to be the ultimate Cube game." They didn't literally say that but that's how we all interpreted it. Then they delayed it but said that it was to make it better and we all thought that was disappointing but okay. But now I think it's pretty clear they delayed it for the Rev or at least that's why it's THIS delayed. This isn't the big awesome Cube game anymore. It's a trojan horse to try to sell us a new console. It feels like the lied to us. Maybe they weren't at the time and things changed but the way things were handled there was a real lack of honesty. I think we're all a little sick of Nintendo telling us one thing and then doing another.

It's a lot like the Wind Waker graphics situation. Things probably would have been fine if Nintendo didn't show us that tech demo which gave us a completely different idea of what Zelda would look like on the Rev. That's why there was such an outrage at the time. It felt like they fooled us. They either pulled a switcheroo or they didn't realize they were which means they're DUMB which isn't good either.

Though I'm not sure how Nintendo should have handled this. I don't think telling us last year that they were delaying Zelda a whole year to add Rev functionality us Cube owners can't even access with forking over a couple hundred bucks would have gone over well at any time. In other words they probably shouldn't have done this period.

Personally I see a flaw in their plan, or at least that it won't work on me. I've been pretty starved for console games lately. Had Nintendo released Zelda earlier I would have bought it then and by the time the Rev launched I would have finished the game and been bored again and then might have bought a Rev at launch. But now I won't because I don't have to to get my Nintendo console gaming fix. I can buy Zelda for my Gamecube and play that instead of spending more money to get a Rev. Zelda can occupy my time long enough that I might be able to hold out for a special edition colour or a price cut or wait for a specific non-launch game.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k

Would you be upset if it turned out TP includes minigames you can play online?

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"It feels like the lied to us. Maybe they weren't at the time and things changed but the way things were handled there was a real lack of honesty. I think we're all a little sick of Nintendo telling us one thing and then doing another."

Oh, come on! Nintendo is a business, they have to do things like this. Did you cry when you found out your parents were lying to you about Santa?

"Things probably would have been fine if Nintendo didn't show us that tech demo which gave us a completely different idea of what Zelda would look like on the Rev."

You know damn well gamers would have whined anyway. That was just a convenient excuse to do so.
I really don't see the purpose behind all this whining. There's no reason Nintendo can't used Twilight Princess (which will be a spectacular game) to bridge the gap between the two consoles, between controller functionality and Remote functionality. It's the last hurrah for Gamecube and an idea of what we'll have with the Revolution.

I don't agree (surprise) with Ian's comments about Nintendo lying. I have good faith that they are improving the game not only revolution-wise, but content-wise as well in this extra year.

However, I do have a bit of ill will towards the original "Link vs. Ganondorf" teaser shown a long, long time ago. I couldn't stop drooling over that scene and equally over the oncoming GC zelda title. The switch was a major disappointment for a lot of people (myself included). WW did turn out to be a phenomenal game anyway, but the teaser was in bad taste.

This thread makes me laugh. People get so angry for no reason.

Finally found an appropriate image to summarize the thread...

I'm angry. But not at Nintendo. You people whine too damn much. Cry me an effing river.

If Nintendo made TP a Revolution game GameCube owners would bitch. If they kept it as a GameCube game with no Revolution functionality non-GameCube owners wouldn't have as much incentive to pick it up if/when they bought a Revolution.

So Nintendo released it as a GameCube game with added Revolution functionality in order to make both groups happy. Somehow, everyone's pissed. I have no idea how that happened.

Upon further consideration, I think my opinion of this depends more on how long the real Rev Zelda will take to develop. I'd think of this as just a teaser for now... I'll probably play through it on Gamecube first, then play through it again on the Rev to see what fun stuff's been added.

What the crap, you guys. Why would you do something like this? We're trying to have a stimulating discussion here, and you think you can just barge in and ruin everything with your heartless flippant remarks... what gives you the right? You really are just big fat jerks, and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Some people think they have a right to decide what is discussed on a forum even though they aren't moderators. It's like "I don't approve of this topic, I'll spam stupid posts until you stop discussing anything meaningful".

Personally I think all this being pissed off is stupid and pointless, they're adding an option to a game, if you feel cheated because Nintendo doesn't let you access everything on the disc just by owning the system and the game maybe you should have spoken up when Pokemon was released. Or Super Smash Brothers Melee, if you want to stay within the current generation.

Seriously, if you don't want to use that option then don't use it.

And complaining about delays is stupid. Would you rather have cut dungeons because of time constraints again?

Was Wind Waker rushed? I wasn't following zelda news when it was released, but it certainly feels very rushed after completing the game in retrospect...

Anything but that again, please =(

Zelda TP is so long they had to delay the game because the beta testers just haven't completed the game yet. It's THAT long.

/boggle

Even if Zelda:TP never came out on GC, I'd still be happy with my gamecube purchase. I wouldn't feel betrayed at all, or misled.

If it were otherwise, if I felt that Nintendo had strung me along with false promises, that Nintendo had deiberately decieved me with constant delays of Zelda:TP, if I saw Miyamoto and Iwata as money-grubbing opportunists with no respect for their work, or for their customers... well then I wouldn't own a Gamecube.

But perhaps for all those people who are upset about this news, they should rectify these wrongs against them as best they can by pawning off their gamecube, especially since the Rev is backwards compatible. It isn't a perfect way out of this haze of negativity, but I'd think it'd be less stressful to have in your house the purple lunchbox that is a symbol of Nintendo's contempt and abuse of gamers like you.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

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Originally posted by: Kairon

But perhaps for all those people who are upset about this news, they should rectify these wrongs against them as best they can by pawning off their gamecube, especially since the Rev is backwards compatible. It isn't a perfect way out of this haze of negativity, but I'd think it'd be less stressful to have in your house the purple lunchbox that is a symbol of Nintendo's contempt and abuse of gamers like you.

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"Finally found an appropriate image to summarize the thread..."

Dude, please. Everyone knows that Whaaambulance's have the writing backwards so you can read it in your rear view mirror. DU-UH!

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane Dude, please. Everyone knows that Whaaambulance's have the writing backwards so you can read it in your rear view mirror. DU-UH!

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It's a lot like the Wind Waker graphics situation. Things probably would have been fine if Nintendo didn't show us that tech demo which gave us a completely different idea of what Zelda would look like on the Rev. That's why there was such an outrage at the time. It felt like they fooled us. They either pulled a switcheroo or they didn't realize they were which means they're DUMB which isn't good either.

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You people just skim over my rants without reading them, I will buy the game or Ill probably just mod my cube and buy it pirate, because I dont feel as compelled to give them my money as I used to, my concern is what this means for revolution games, you are happy with some gimm!ck first person aiming, Im expecting a hell of a lot more because the controller can offer that, and if Nintendo thinks that just adding remote to old games is acceptable as good game design then its time for me to stick with PC games and forget theirs.

"If Nintendo made TP a Revolution game GameCube owners would bitch. If they kept it as a GameCube game with no Revolution functionality non-GameCube owners wouldn't have as much incentive to pick it up if/when they bought a Revolution."

oh god lets hope not, if non GC owners need TP with this lame functionality to pick up a Revolution then the console will indeed be Nintendo's last. This is only to win an extra buck with the game, nothing else, this wont break or make the Rev launch, if it does, Nintendo has a lot more serious problems than just me being pissed at them for lying.

I thought that Nintendo's priority was to make excellent quality games, but thats not the case.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
oh god lets hope not, if non GC owners need TP with this lame functionality to pick up a Revolution then the console will indeed be Nintendo's last. This is only to win an extra buck with the game, nothing else, this wont break or make the Rev launch, if it does, Nintendo has a lot more serious problems than just me being pissed at them for lying.

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Looks like the whaambulance driver will be pulling a double-shift tonight...

Seriously, if people didn't take time to bitch about things they know little to nothing about yet, I wonder if we'd have internet discussion at all...

"Listen. Not everything relating to the revolution's success is an on/off switch."

Thats just wrong, if theres no software that delivers the concept, the Rev will fail! thats your on/off switch.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Thats just wrong, if theres no software that delivers the concept, the Rev will fail! thats your on/off switch.

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I just can't wait for E3 where they reveal that Twilight Princess is cel-shaded.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Thats just wrong, if theres no software that delivers the concept, the Rev will fail! thats your on/off switch.

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And you have proof that this software doesn't exist? No? Then why complain about it?

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Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
I just can't wait for E3 where they reveal that Twilight Princess is cel-shaded.

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Is it just me or are some people using no creativity whatsoever when it comes to Revolution's potential? Tilting the controller to make Mario jump is about the lamest strawman argument I've heard for fearing Rev's controller. I really think some of you people have nothing better than to do than whine and complain, even when there is nothing to whine and complain about yet!

"I just can't wait for E3 where they reveal that Twilight Princess is cel-shaded."

No wonder they delayed it.

"And you have proof that this software doesn't exist? No? Then why complain about it?"

I think it's a pretty big deal for Nintendo to delay a major Cube title to coincide with the the Rev launch. We Cube owners are starving for games. For some it might be the last straw. The general assumption might be that that things will never get better so why buy a Rev because it's be the same crap. The N64 ended as a barren wasteland and so did the Cube so why wouldn't the Rev? This is the moment where people decide "do I stick with Nintendo or not". Nintendo themselves have said that not having a smooth transition from the N64 to Cube hurt them. So for them to repeat the same mistake again when they potentially don't have to is a little odd.

If Zelda's Rev capabilities are just an "every little bit helps" for the launch that's fine. But why would Nintendo risk having this huge bunch of nothing on the Cube just for that? That suggests that maybe they feel they need Zelda for the launch. You would assume Nintendo has something that sells the concept at launch but they didn't for the DS. They launched the DS with a port and nothing else. It took months for any other first party DS games to even appear and months more for games that actually made good use of the touchscreen.

It happened before and Nintendo seemed pretty damn oblivious to it at the time.

Wow, everyone is so EMO in this thread.

I can't keep track of all this. Zelda = Good. 'nuff said

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother


Finally found an appropriate image to summarize the thread...

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Yes its an option, but its really lame in my eyes, and is not worth the trouble, like adding analog stick to a Link to the Past. I think that I cant be more clear than with that example.

And I should clarify:

I dont think the game will be bad, and I have never said that!

also, I dont think that revolution will fail and that Nintendo wont deliver, I just have my doubts, doubts that have never existed in my long track as Nintendo fanboy which is upsetting and thats why I have to vent as much as I can .

An analog stick would be fun for link to the past if it meant I could aim arrows in all radial directions.

Analogy dismantled.

why would it be fun? the enemies, combat system and puzzles are constructed around the limitations of the dpad and its 4 directions (8 technically), shooting arrows in radial directions its just as empty as all the embellishments that the 360 and the ps3 want to put in games with their HD crap, it would be waste... unless the combat system and enemies are reprogrammed for this, and you get enemies attacking you from all directions and you can swap them quickly with the bow, which guess what? never happens with the orginal because it would be frustrating with just the dpad.

see?

haha sorry but Ill never stop until all my anger is vent, after it Ill probably wont even care for the damn game

I find it funny that people in here are stating stuff about how the Rev features in TP will be utilized, when no one knows yet! Analog stick in LTTP is the best argument? When you have a fully 3D controller, it has potential to add much more than something as simple as "analog" in LTTP.

i also notice alot of you take things waaaay to personally ;-D

its cool that its your opinion but lighten up, just a lil. i'd hate to see your head blow up. i'm only new to posting in the forums, but i've read alot of good and iteresting things that all you different characters have had to say in the past. thought it was cool enough to join the forums myself, so i'd hate to see a fellow pgc user go bye bye.

i do agree that analog in LTtP would blow hard, but i dont see motion-sensing in TP the same as you do. thats just my opinion. i'm hoping nintendo will make it worht the wait though. the game will no-doubt be stellar, whether they had years, months, weeks or days to come up with the story (i didnt think WW had a bad story at all) but i want to be blown away by the reVmote in TP. If not i'll just stick to playing it GC style, no biggy in my eyes.

well, the reason of my anger is personal, I feel cheated as a GC owner, but I have to live with it so Ill leave it at that. my concerns on the outcome of the controller are speculation of course, but also based on this direction that I see Nintendo taking with the game. Some of you see it differently, well, I can understand that view but cannot share it, this is basically the only game we've seen for the revolution, I cant help to start judging the console by this game, is the only one we have any information about.

i can understand why you feel that way. i wish i had as much time to put into video games as i did when i was say 12 or 13, but sadly i dont. i knew before i bought my gamecube that life would turn out this way and knew that the only games i would get and devote my off-time to would be those nintendo titles, the only ones worth getting in my eyes. i dont feel cheated though, dissapointed yes but not cheated. business is business and i think this is a wise move on their part if it helps add to launch and not be the only reason to own a revolution right away. i say in the meantime, play something else. i only recently bought a ds, and with it im discovering a bunch of GBA games i've always wanted to play but never did becouse i didnt own one. go back and re-master that game that always gave you a hard time, add a few more titles to your library, or even go on a retro-rix and hook up that NES and see how many stages you can get thru without your game freezing and your game turning blue pink or green. or if you're really that into zelda do what i do, go back adn play every one from start to finish. hell now that i have an SP i finally get to use that damned tingle tuner!!!
my point is just wait till E3. its comin up pretty fast. if by then we don't see any solid games or gameplay...i'll be right there ranting with ya.


edit- i dont know if the above statement makes sense anymore. i am very tired and don't understand anything i wrote. heres hoping it makes sense to you

****WARNING****
READ PURE IGNORANCE AT YOUR OWN RISK!
****WARNING****
The two quotes below were "surprisingly" stated by the most ignorant person in this forum. I don't need to state any names because his ignorance speaks for itself.
****WARNING****

1. "oh god lets hope not, if non GC owners need TP with this lame functionality to pick up a Revolution"

2. "my concern is what this means for revolution games, you are happy with some gimm!ck first person aiming
Im expecting a hell of a lot more because the controller can offer that, and if Nintendo thinks that just adding remote to old games is acceptable as good game design then its time for me to stick with PC games and forget theirs."


So, please forgive his preschool whining for he does not know what he says.....

Look man you have never even played TP with the "sparkling innovation" functionality that you are refering to. How can you immediately
pass it off as a "sparkling innovation" when you have never EVEN played it to verify it as a "sparkling innovation?" You can't possibly build an opinion and state it's a "sparkling innovation" without trying the stated functionality out??????

People like you need to step back and actually think about a thing called "reasoning" before you make your scandalous "sparkling innovationy" claims. I bet you 100% of the people reading my reply, including you (but sadly will never admit), agree with the fact that your statement is based on pure ignorance, and even worse mere self-fullfilling speculation!

If you do not like the news.... go ahead and blame it on the fact that you like to whine....that would actually be more acceptable to the readers of this forum....but please do not judge this functionality as a "sparkling innovation" unless you have complete...concrete...proof....and can form an "honest" opinion about things.

Sorry if you get angry, but thats they way I see it, and yes, I or you can predict the outcome of things based on current evidence. I know the type of gameplay traditional Zelda offers, I know it very well, and I also know the kind of functionality the remote offers, screaming and flaming me because Im "ignorant" and I cannot form an "honest" opinion without trying it is just silly, lets not comment then on anything revolution related because none of us have tried it and we cannot form an "honest" opinion on it... please...

No....please.....let's go ahead and comment on your pure ignorance....cause we at least have concrete evidence of that...

Ive explain my position more than once since the first anouncement from the english magazine was made, you instead, have not, you are just flaming me because you dont like what Im saying, tough luck buddy, but your argument is pretty weak, it also makes "ignorant" everyone who thinks this is a good idea, because no one has tried it.

"ok....buddy....please.....buddy.....but your argument is pretty weak, it also makes "ignorant" everyone who thinks this is a good idea, because no one has tried it"


---WHAT IN THE HELL DID YOU JUST TRY TO SAY?????

you need to practice proper english grammar before you claim my argument is pretty weak.....or even begin to claim that I'm ignorant to justify your pathetic ignorant whining....I have yet to make one statement that lacked evidence....

.....but I guess ignorance is truly bliss.....for those ignorant, shall remain ignorant....and shall die happily ignorant....because of their rather ironic, sad, and unfortunately blinding ignorance....

A few people have coined the term "Preemptive Bitching" in this thread, and no, you probably DON'T know who you are.

Come on people, relax, there's no point in discussing like this until we get our hands on it or at least watch plenty of footage. I know it can get stressfull to have something you love get delayed, it is only 3 more days until GDC and unless they don't reveal anything Zelda or REV related (doubtful I am of that) it will get even worse, so sit back comfortably and use your free time with something else. Or at least try to vent off your anger/stress/unhappiness in some other way. There's no point in bickering.

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Originally posted by: EasyCure
by the way this is my first post, I'm Mike and nice to meet everyong. I felt i had to make this topic my first post because lately i've read nothing but whines. anyone have cheese? (bad joke sorry)

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Don't worry Mantidor, you've explained your position many times, and I agree with you, we'd just be repeating ourselves to continue. For those that say "OMG these types of people ALWAYS find something to complain about" well I don't know about anyone else but this is the first thing i've been angry about at Nintendo for a LONG time, and I don't think anyone would complain if they just left it GC only the way it was supposed to be. This move is just pure greed to try and force the loyal GC fans over to Rev, I thought Nintendo was all about the gamers?

WOW....I'M SHOCKED....both of you are just pathetic....


IceCold - "Please croumeli don't hurt his feelings....lay off...okay....please....lay off....we all know he whines....but he's ignorant
and so he sadly can't really tell that he's actually whining just to whine....but he likes to whine okay!!!....so he should....and he's my bestest bestest friend okay.....so.....just....just.....lay off, okay....just laaaaayoooooffahh...."



and to anyone else that's pathetic in this forum.....please let me know if I did anything wrong....and please feel free to tell me to layoff as well....hahaha

I think the way you expressed your opinion was very childish and rash, yes.

Please use constructive posts when critiquing others.

I am not expressing my opinion....I am merely expressing fact....

"THIS WILL BE GIMMIIIKKKY functionality....I feel sooo cheated......I can't believe this news, even though I have not yet played it.....I can justifiably whine with my rather baseless and ignorant whines!!!"

So I guess ignorant whining...is not "childish and rash"....and all of a sudden.....it's actually the really mature thing to do?

Enjoy your vacation.

I don't agree with his thoughts, but I don't think he's expressing himself in an inappropriate way.

I'm actually really enjoying the fact that he quit whining.....as his posts were full of rather annoying but
"appropriate whining"

croumeli, this is the only warning I'll give you. If I see you try to flame another user, you will be banned.

LOL....sorry bloodworth....I'll quit my "flaming" immediately....I must of hurt many feelings here.....so tell me, do I have another chance if I change and start ignorantly whining for everyone else's good?

Disagreeing with somebody's reaction is fine. I don't agree with them on this one. I think the functionality might be cool, and we don't even know half the story yet.

You can certainly call attention to the fact that there's nothing TO judge, nothing TO call lame, except a vague notion that the Rev. controller will somehow be used.

What you can't do is completely belittle and demean people by repeatedly calling them "ignorant" and "pathetic" and going overboard to make them look stupid.

It's going to be a fishing game.

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Originally posted by: Pale
It's going to be a fishing game.

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Alright....If I belittled some people I truly apologize. I read these PG forums consistently and I always read them to get a feel for how all the Nintendo fans react to the breaking news...I never really had a real urge to post though until I read some of the absurd and unjustifiable posts tonight that many people had about this topic....some will blame Nintendo with whatever they do, and I cannot believe how disgustingly childish it gets......

But all I see here.....even if you love or hate the news today....that Nintendo is the only company that has the guts to even try something different!!!....and for that I give them absolute credit, and my full respect.....EVEN IF THEY FAIL!

....I personally already know I will be utterly bored with the "gaming" experience that Playstation and Xbox will try to offer with this next generation.....

At least give Nintendo the chance they deserve....and don't doom them with ignorant and baseless whining.....be patient, watch, learn, try everything out....just shut up.....and play one of the greatest gaming series to ever grace videogaming with the confirmed added bonus of a new controller that has a very good chance to actually revolutionize "gaming" as we know it today....

:-O

That was actually a well constructed and convincing post. Now you've given people something to think about other than "what did he just call me?"

Wow, this thread hasn't imploded yet? Maybe I *did* somehow fix that bug....

You know, I haven't seriously commented in this thread yet...

I plan on buying the new Zelda - and I plan on buying a Revolution... So, pretty much, this news doesn't bother me at all.

Am I sad the game is delayed further? Well, yeah. But really, I've been gaming for about 23+ years. I've waited this long, I can wait another few months.

I somewhat miss the days where we had like, zero info on new games. You remember those days, when you knew a game was coming out when you saw it on the shelf. When you bought a game based on what the box said. When there wasn't 12+ Magazines dedicated only to games and there was no Internet for "leaked" infomation to get out on...

Honestly, I'd *love* if more games just came out of nowhere (Like TetrisDS)... It makes it all the more fun.

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Originally posted by: Mario This move is just pure greed to try and force the loyal GC fans over to Rev, I thought Nintendo was all about the gamers?

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Killzone ftw

Is Nintendo still holding the quality of games as the highest goal?

Well, let's ignore the fact that they're a money-grubbing corporation for a second. It's starting to look like Nintendo is growing up corporately. In my opinion it was Miyamoto's willy nilly "everything-for-the-game" drive that drove the N64 to cartridges (he remarked that Mario 64 would be impossible on CD technology of the day), and thus cost Nintendo market leadership.

Maybe Iwata knows how to straddle the line between art and business better than Yamauchi. And maybe Miyamoto has grown sensible to market considerations as well instead of being purely focused on his games. The Zelda forward-compatible with Revolution appears to be a mature and intelligent compromise between the business considerations Nintendo must pursue and Miyamoto's artistic drive and their promise to have a GC Zelda.

Mantidor, you wonder what happened to Nintendo always putting games first. It looks like you're right, they're not doing that anymore. It appears that Nintendo has learned how to balance their creative pride with their ambition to retake a strong market presence.

Releasing TP on the GC but allowing it to be played on the Rev is the best compromise that let's Nintendo pursue all its goals. The GC gets a Zelda swan song. The Rev gets a major opening act to get its potential audience interested. And most importantly in eyes like yours, the quality of the game is not diminished. In fact, TP may even be ENHANCED (just think of that 100+ hours of playtime claim) due to the longer dev time, which is a DEFINITE blessing compared to WW's rushed completion.

Yes, you're saying goodbye to the company that sacrificed market leadership in order to create the cartridge-based Mario 64 masterpiece. But Nintendo fans everywhere may finally be able to see a company humbled by its selfish, artistic hubris and that may finally start to balance the need for integrity inc reating great games and the drive to dominate the industry and marketplace once again.

Using that perspective, perhaps the utter confusion and sense of loss this announcement engenders is put into perspective?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

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Sources including Chinese gaming site Level Up have confirmed the game’s length to be 100 hours. This is in excess of several other infamous game lengths, including the 2-disc, 80-hour RPGs Tales of Symphonia (GCN) and Star Ocean: Till the End of Time (PS2).

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The game is a fairly tight package. Unlike its sequels, which are built in a way that the experience lasts 30-40 hours, Zelda: Link to the Past is constructed in a manner that is almost pure game. The Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time are long games because of story cut-scenes, mini-games, town exploration, side quests, and other miscellaneous items. While these elements make those games closer to “Action/RPGs” than Action/Adventure, Link to the Past contains none of them, and instead it focuses on only delivering solid dungeons and exploration. Thus, the game can be beaten in a single sitting of only a few hours.

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Funny... LTTP actually had plenty of "cut-scenes, mini-games, town exploration, and side quests". I don't know how much time I spent in that digging game to find a piece of heart. Fetch quests didn't start in earnest until Link's Awakening. I will agree on the point about travel. The 3D games have a lot more empty space. In 2D there was always something in each square of the map.

I think LTTP had all those things, but in smaller doses (which were big for their day). And the first playtimes of LTTP when the game was brand new on the SNES were probably more than a couple hours. But I think the gist of it is true. I think LTTP was a bigger game than Wind Waker, while at the same time being shorter.

If Twilight Princess were to merely fix the "insufficent" level of "pure game" presented by WW, pushing it back up to LTTP and OoT standards, and double the "padding" in the game (which would still probably be less than the beautifully deep padding found in Majora's Mask), then I think it could meet that "100 hour" mark without doing anything unusually remarkable. Which is why I just don't trust the "100 hour" claim. If Twilight Princess is like three Wind Wakers combined, well, I'd still love it (but I'm biased). But if Twilight Princess is like thirty Link to the Pasts, all rolled into one? Well, realistically that'd never happen. But it's why I was hoping Nintendo was spending this entire year-long delay pouring quality into those hundred hours (whatever form they end up taking).

couldnt agree with you more.
nintendo seems to be maturing as a Business but luckily, and thankfully for us, the fans, they want to also keep that integrity of creating nothing short of a masterpeice with each game - flagship characters or not. I don't think nintendo is trying to Force you to buy a revolution to play zelda TP. I dont think they Need to force you. It's almost positive that everyone who posted something in this thread will no doubt buy the game, because in the end all that matters is we get a brand new zelda adventure. whether you play it on the revolution or gamecube, with the GC controll or the reVmote, it doesnt matter..you know you still wanna play this game. and remember, even if you don't have a GC and buy revolution just for TP because you were one of those people who ignorantly didnt try WW because it wasnt wat you expected, you can still play it using the GC controllers; thats what those ports on the side are for. Miyamoto didnt say that you could only play it on the Rev using the new remote.
i know some will argue that its not fair to add the fwd functionality because its a slap in the face to loyal GC owners, but i for one don't see it that way. i know there will be the argument of "well their making it so that if you Dont buy a revolution, you cant get the full experience from the game" and frankly, thats bull-plop.
we dont know yet how the reVmote will be implemented int he game, though even if you could opt to play the game from start to finish with it, that doesnt take away that feeling you get when you figure out that puzzle you've been scratching your head at for hours. Or the smile on your face when you find the Big chest containing a Bow or Arror and you hear that oh so familiar music. no matter which system you play it on or which way you choose to play it, its still a zelda game. nintendo promises this to be the biggest zelda game to date. they heard your crys of WW being to short and their fixing that for YOU THE FANS. are they out to get your money? sure. their not putting a gun to your head and saying you have to buy a revolution for zelda. they're getting your money either way 'cause you ARE going to buy zelda.
i consider myself a 'loyal gc' owner and i dont feel offended or cheated or anything. dissaointed yes, but im not going to cry over a delay to fine tune a game and add new features. i think that any real loyal GC owner will buy a revolution regardless, just because its something fresh and new. im totally behind nintendos cry for innovation and if this new hardware fails....i guess i wont be playing any new video games again. atleast not on a home console, i still have plenty of DS/GBA/GBC games to check out. still ahvea l those old favorites from NES-GC too. i embrace a change in the industry because i dont want to be one of the million who play games like GTA3 and its many clones, or boring mindless shooters.
if zelda means the last GREAT peice of nintendo software on a home console, so be it. it'll be a plast to play no matter what and revmote only adds replay value in my book

"Mantidor, you wonder what happened to Nintendo always putting games first. It looks like you're right, they're not doing that anymore. It appears that Nintendo has learned how to balance their creative pride with their ambition to retake a strong market presence."

That sounds about right. How ironic that for years I have wanted Nintendo to try harder to increase their marketshare yet now that they sort of are I don't like it. But then I didn't just want them to try, I wanted them to do it right. Nintendo's whole strength is that they make each game the best it can be. That's why they have a fanbase in the first place. I think with Nintendo rushing games and releasing cookie cutter Mario spinoff junk they're losing what makes them Nintendo in the first place. And without that they're nothing. They're clueless at marketing and are too inflexible to compete with average titles. Nintendo can only compete with balls out 110% "make every game count" quality. That's the one thing they've got right and that shouldn't be the thing to change. The clueless marketing and stubborn inflexibility is what needs to go.

Regarding A Link to the Past that game can only be beaten in a few hours if you blast through it and know exactly what to do. When you don't know what to do ahead of time the game takes time. The only difference is back then you did almost everything in games yourself. Games today have too much downtime. Developers are lazy so they use elaborate cutscenes any chance they get which pads a game. A Link to the Past comes from the days where you blew your flute and the duck immediately grabs you instead of some 30 second cutscene occuring.

...It's Zelda, people. You'd buy it if Nintendo demanded every store employee kick you in the balls at the time of purchase.

And if you think you can get around that by purchasing it on the intertron, oh boy are you wrong. Nintendo will hunt you DOWN. The Revolution is really an anti-US superpower device, designed to brainwash children and castrate all suitable males. JAPAN SHALL RISE AGAIN! ZEIG HAI! ZEIG HAI!

Seriously, you know who loses? Anyone who doesn't buy Zelda. You know who loses even more? Those not buyng it for stupid pride/vendetta reasons.

I mean, gosh people. Gosh. You made me say gosh. I hope you are happy.

How else would anyone propose Nintendo handle this issue, hmm? Release a GC-only version, then follow up with an LE version with Rev functionality? Would that have made you happier? No, because you'd complain WELL CRAPS WHAT IFS I GETS A REV, HUH? THEN I NEED THE LE. There'd be rants of double dipping and other nonsense. At this point they can't make people happy enough. What happened to the golden days of the N64 Nintendo fanbase, where we expected delays, and subsequently let them happen with a casual, lassiez-faire like attitude of "Well, when it's done, it's done, simple."

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Nintendo can never win. Ever.

EA games can make Madden 2001 and release it twice a year with palette changes for the next 10 years, Nintendo can't release what will (most likely) be the greatest game ever without pissing people off.

Seriously, don't buy it. You're only hurting yourself, more for me, etc etc.

Also, Bloodworth. What the hell. I did WAY less than whoever was flaming up there and you threatened a ban on me! You are losing your edge!

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Mantidor, you wonder what happened to Nintendo always putting games first. It looks like you're right, they're not doing that anymore. It appears that Nintendo has learned how to balance their creative pride with their ambition to retake a strong market presence."

That sounds about right. How ironic that for years I have wanted Nintendo to try harder to increase their marketshare yet now that they sort of are I don't like it. But then I didn't just want them to try, I wanted them to do it right. Nintendo's whole strength is that they make each game the best it can be. That's why they have a fanbase in the first place. I think with Nintendo rushing games and releasing cookie cutter Mario spinoff junk they're losing what makes them Nintendo in the first place. And without that they're nothing. They're clueless at marketing and are too inflexible to compete with average titles. Nintendo can only compete with balls out 110% "make every game count" quality. That's the one thing they've got right and that shouldn't be the thing to change. The clueless marketing and stubborn inflexibility is what needs to go.

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Regarding A Link to the Past that game can only be beaten in a few hours if you blast through it and know exactly what to do. When you don't know what to do ahead of time the game takes time. The only difference is back then you did almost everything in games yourself. Games today have too much downtime. Developers are lazy so they use elaborate cutscenes any chance they get which pads a game. A Link to the Past comes from the days where you blew your flute and the duck immediately grabs you instead of some 30 second cutscene occuring.

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Also, Bloodworth. What the hell. I did WAY less than whoever was flaming up there and you threatened a ban on me! You are losing your edge!

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"Personally, I would've been fine if Nintendo kept dedicating themselves 110% to the game at the detriment of everything else and remained a 3rd place entity, albeit profitable, forever."

I guess you have to question if they would be in 3rd place if they stuck to the 110% way of making games. There were three contenders during that time period and Nintendo ended up second. Now they're in third after losing out to an inexperienced newcomber. They still have that attitude that they can release games in a vacuum and people will eat it up just because it exists, only now their games aren't quite as good and they rely on their old franchises more. The real problem that hurt the N64 was their marketing and stubborn jerk method of doing things and those issues haven't been addressed. If Nintendo is going to cut back on their games it would make more sense to do this at the same time as improving those other issues. The same exact plan only with lower quality games isn't exactly a good strategy.

Plus I've never been completely convinced that cartridges were used just because of Super Mario 64 but more due to Nintendo penny-pinching. They wanted complete control over their medium so that they could make money supplying the cartridges on top of high licencing fees. Maybe it was a combination of issues but I'm sure that played a big part. Afterall their attempt to "address" the problem was the DD, which again used a medium they were in complete control of. If Nintendo initially thought having two different mediums was a good idea they could have from the getgo made a system that used both cartridges and CDs but they didn't. Now that idea might not actually be cost feasible but still. Plus Nintendo also canned the initial Sony/Nintendo SNES CD attachment because Sony would get a cut of the profits. They also didn't use a standardized format on the Cube. They've been notorious for not wanting to share for a long time so the theory isn't so unlikely.

"I think with Nintendo rushing games and releasing cookie cutter Mario spinoff junk they're losing what makes them Nintendo in the first place"

Big difference these days is Nintendo has been putting a significant amount of work into their handheld game development, unlike the N64 days. (then there's the issue of two "next-generations" coming in prematurely, DS and Rev, causing them to shift gears too) Of course the resources will spread thin.

You just conveniently don't care about the handheld sector and focus on what the console sector is lacking.

They may be the 3rd place console here in the US, but they are still one of the biggest videogaming publishers in the world. I think only EA is bigger.

"You just conveniently don't care about the handheld sector and focus on what the console sector is lacking."

They're different markets so I don't take into account Nintendo's handhelds when talking about their consoles. I don't consider "they're concentrating on their handhelds" a decent excuse for any shortcomings on the console front. Each system should be able to stand alone without the assumed requirement from Nintendo that Cube owners own a GBA or DS and vice versa.

I'm going to agree with Ian on that point, definitely.
I think Nintendo should expand somewhat. Consume some more good developers, so they have a more consistent console output.

The only problem I see with implementing Rev. features, is that GC owners may have to wait a couple more months to get their hand on the game. Chances are the game will be fully functional, with the Rev features being something that could not be otherwise done on GC.

Both parties win in this situation(except for a delay), GC owners will get a great Zelda game that is well worth the money, and Rev owners will get to play the same great game with some features (whether they are good or not remains to be seen) that couldn't be accomplished on GC. I don't see any downside to this, unless Nintendo intentionally has unlockables that could be easily done on GC or they are lazy with the GC controls. The only thing you are getting ripped off of, is a couple month delay (I really doubt this 1 year delay was just for Rev functionality).

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
I'm going to agree with Ian on that point, definitely.
I think Nintendo should expand somewhat. Consume some more good developers, so they have a more consistent console output.

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Check out the balance sheets though: Nintendo's got lots of money sitting in the bank, they should be using it to add some more first party development studios.

If we have to count on first party titles for the vast majority of our worthwhile console games, we'd better make sure we've got enough of them to cover it. We should never have multimonth gaps between legitimate releases.

I imagine it's challenging to add more first parties when you need 1) offices/resources to house them in and 2) Reliable/experienced/talented individuals to lead these teams.

Getting really good people probably is an issue, I can't imagine the office space is holding them back. Maybe bring in a whole bunch of less experienced teams and just turn them loose and see what they can do... some will undoubtedly flop, but somewhere in there might be the next Miyamoto.

Long whiny rant ahead again! :'D


" The only thing you are getting ripped off of, is a couple month delay (I really doubt this 1 year delay was just for Rev functionality)."

Thats the big point of concern for me. In one hand we have the possibility that rev functionality is added last minute, so will it be a good implementation? what if its mediocre? Even if its true that in just two weeks they added first person aiming to the Echoes demo, well, I think that it would be seen as a half assed implementation if all they do is mapping first person aiming, fishing and something else to TP and call it done. I dont think that just taking a couple of months to add the remote functionality is going to yield decent results. And a couple of months is already a considerable long time waiting.

On the other hand, they might be taking a long time to do this, probably since they finalized the controller idea (and I fear this is the real case), the problem with this is how it royally screws the GC fanbase, specially because they promised this game to be for the fans and for GC a million times. Also, the GC game will suffer, because it was never the real focus. The last, most amazing traditional Zelda game as we know it? all lies. And even if the focus on the rev features is considerable, it wouldnt be the best way to bring Zelda to the Revolution, because its tied to the Cube, they arent free to explore insane, crazy ideas. The worst part is that it would be clear that they only lied to extend the GC life with a false promise and even to make some people buy a GC for the game, I couldnt flame Kutaragi anymore, because Nintendo would be at the same level.

Its a lose-lose situation for me, but Ill rather have the first one, at least Id know that they invested their resources on making the original game, and Zelda revolution will come along in the next years to trully prove the remote capabilities, I can wait for it, I certainly can. And most important, Nintendo wouldnt be so tacky.

As for how good this is for Nintendo financially, I really dont give a damn I dont have stocks invested in them. Of course I couldnt be indiferent in the past to the fact that Nintendo is making money, because part of that money was destined to make games like the Wind Waker, Metroid Prime or Mario Sunshine, even if Nintendo was also investing in Pokemon games. But if Nintendo is shifting their priorities with the franchises I like the most, then what good is to me that they are going to make more money?

" I trust that even as Nintendo learns to balance business alongside their creative drive Miyamoto and Iwata will still hold at heart their experiences as Game Developers and the spirit of innovation and quality that is Nintendo."

Thats why Im so dissapointed and angry, thats why I sound so agressive sometimes , I had that trust but I lost it with this anouncement T_T I cant believe in them.

I missed this before:

"How else would anyone propose Nintendo handle this issue, hmm? Release a GC-only version, then follow up with an LE version with Rev functionality? Would that have made you happier? No, because you'd complain WELL CRAPS WHAT IFS I GETS A REV, HUH? THEN I NEED THE LE. There'd be rants of double dipping and other nonsense. At this point they can't make people happy enough. What happened to the golden days of the N64 Nintendo fanbase, where we expected delays, and subsequently let them happen with a casual, lassiez-faire like attitude of "Well, when it's done, it's done, simple."

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Nintendo can never win. Ever."

well, thats not my case, before this I couldnt point a single bad thing about Nintendo, I defended the water pack and the toon shading with my heart and soul, I also defended the first delay, although I was frustrated, I was also happy to wait more because Nintendo promised heaven an earth for this game and I had blind trust, but this features really made me go "WTF!" with them, I still cant believe this is real.

I guarantee you the revmote functionality isn't the only thing being tweaked up until launch.

Yeah, yeah, the sky is falling

TP is simultaneously a Cube game so it'll suck on the Rev and a Rev game so it'll suck on the cube, it's the worst possible situation humanly possible and the disc will be sharpened so it'll cut you when you try to take it out of the package. It was all part of some insidious plot to sell Cubes, and we see how well that worked... all those people that rushed out and bought a Cube for one game that never had a firm release date. It's Virtual Boy, Crystal Chronicles being a connectivity title, and Microsoft buying Rare all rolled into one.

We get the idea. We all count ourselves amongst the damned.

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Originally posted by: Professional 666

Yes, they should expand, and there's the problem: was it easier for Nintendo, as a company, to simply increase their development resources on BOTH fronts, drop one front to focus on the ailing front, or shift their focus to the front where they were wildly successful at?

Should the hand putting food in their mouth drop what its doing to help out the 2nd hand that doesn't have the strength to lift the knife to cut the turkey (a fairly small turkey)? Or let the food hand continue its way while the knife hand takes a break and tries again when it has the energy to do so?

We already know the results: DS is a success, GameCube is already on life-support even in a short generation, and Rev has a brighter future than the GameCube initially displayed. The market did force Nintendo to expand, it just took a generation to do it.

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So basically you are saying what? That Nintendo had TP done around November, and would have rather it came out then, and that somehow a 1 year delay (worse case scenario) was used for Rev functionality is going to hurt the quality? The game has been in development for around 2 years and I'm sure it was focused for GC gamers! I'm sorry but this whining is really making no sense, and I can understand why there is name calling in the thread, even if I don't agree that is the best way to go about things.

You do realize the Zelda team is huge right? They are able to multitask where needed, they probaly have a small group working solely on Rev functionality while the others are making improvements to the overall game. Trust me, there is no way there could be more than 6 months MAX needed for Rev implementations, and that includes a design period, even in a smaller design team, and that could easily be a quality implementation. Personally I hope those that are talking about the sky falling end up dissapointed in the long run, serves them right for running their mouths (fingers) before there is anything concrete about what they did and how they did it.

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane

Plus I've never been completely convinced that cartridges were used just because of Super Mario 64 but more due to Nintendo penny-pinching. They wanted complete control over their medium so that they could make money supplying the cartridges on top of high licencing fees. Maybe it was a combination of issues but I'm sure that played a big part. Afterall their attempt to "address" the problem was the DD, which again used a medium they were in complete control of. If Nintendo initially thought having two different mediums was a good idea they could have from the getgo made a system that used both cartridges and CDs but they didn't. Now that idea might not actually be cost feasible but still. Plus Nintendo also canned the initial Sony/Nintendo SNES CD attachment because Sony would get a cut of the profits. They also didn't use a standardized format on the Cube. They've been notorious for not wanting to share for a long time so the theory isn't so unlikely.

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"So basically you are saying what? That Nintendo had TP done around November, and would have rather it came out then, and that somehow a 1 year delay (worse case scenario) was used for Rev functionality is going to hurt the quality?"

No, not at all, I didnt explain myself clearly I suppose. Lets say that this game is developed by separate teams with one focusing on graphics, the other in controller implementation for GC, other for Rev controls, the other on level design etc, but it never happens that at last month they all get glued together. Its a constant interaction between all the areas. TP wasnt done by November because it would obviously have been released then, what Im saying is that its posible that Nintendo decided to diminish the focus on the GC part at that time and started implementing the functionality, giving it the priority. Its a posibility among others, I do think that was clear enough, I never say "this is what happen, period".

Its simply the fact that they split the focus of the game between GC and Rev, the worst case, they are giving more focus to the Rev, the not-as-worse case, they are giving more focus to the GC, my ideal case: give all the damn focus to the GC! The game will be good most likely, but I would take any day extra dungeons, weapons or bosses than remote functionality.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
well, thats not my case, before this I couldnt point a single bad thing about Nintendo, I defended the water pack and the toon shading with my heart and soul, I also defended the first delay, although I was frustrated, I was also happy to wait more because Nintendo promised heaven an earth for this game and I had blind trust, but this features really made me go "WTF!" with them, I still cant believe this is real.

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Wind Waker was a bold move, the kind of move that makes Nintendo so great. The game was incomplete, but it was a fantastic experience for me, it was timeless and absolutely charming, the game is simply unique. Twilight Princess is Nintendo getting coward, giving remote functionality, besides all my other complains, is Nintendo being coward regarding the rev. You cant even compare these two at all.

Well, nowadays the only company trying to keep formats as unproprietary as possible is Microsoft. And if they win, well, then we've got bigger problems than proprietary formats, lol.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Windwaker was a cowardly move by Nintendo. And it was a dumb one.

First of all, the game was unfinished: it had amazingly few dungeons and an infinitesimal amount of landmass when there could have been so much more.

Second of all, it had collection quests, the same scourge that permeated hated Rare games Bajo-Tooie and DK64.

Third, it suffered from the same malaise that struck GC era sequels: the malaise of not truly being anything new.

Fourth, various destinations in the ocean prove next to useless and not fully developed, such as the fort-like structure that is just walls sticking out of the ocean, shoots cannonballs out of its walls, and really doesn't serve much purpose.

If you can't see that Wind Waker was rushed to completion and suffered immensely as a result of it, if you don't see how much of a blemish this was on Nintendo's reputation as a developer who valued a game's quality above its launch date, if you don't see that not once have I criticized it's artistic style nor it's battle system, nor even its "fun" aspect (though I personally see many further wrongs in myriad related fields like difficulty and dungeon design), then either you're still strangely hopelessly stuck in fanboy mode, or you're simply beyond hope.

Then you go on to call Nintendo cowardly for taking Zelda: TP, which for all we know is shaping up to be a very content-strong game UNLIKE Wind Waker, taking TP and adding just a single aspect of forward compatibility and you call that cowardly. Here is a company that is going for the gold, trying to balance creativity and the pressures of the real world, trying to do its legacy justice WHILE AT THE SAME TIME trying to ensure that it has a future, a company that apologizes to consumers when they run out of DS units or DS lites, a company that has just introduced an entirely new game interface and is taking the leap into the unknown, a company that is the last bastion against the uber-commercialization of mega-corporations like Sony and Microsoft, a company that does all this... and you call them cowardly?

Call them overly cautious in ensuring a strong launch-related title for their next system, fine. Say they're leveraging their past with this forward compatibility, sure. Claim that Nintendo is painfully aware of just how badly failure in this next console generation can hurt them, yes.

But I have yet to see any proof that you have ANY right whatsoever to call them cowardly.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Wind Waker was a bold move, the kind of move that makes Nintendo so great. The game was incomplete, but it was a fantastic experience for me, it was timeless and absolutely charming, the game is simply unique. Twilight Princess is Nintendo getting coward, giving remote functionality, besides all my other complains, is Nintendo being coward regarding the rev. You cant even compare these two at all.

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With all the time spent on TP, I'm hoping they packed in so much "STUFF" that it reaches SSBM-levels.

Lets look on the bright side "I would say that we are progressing well with completing it" sound like their almost done and this is thier last second idea their were talking about when the delayed it. So it's release must be soon.

"Look at Wind Waker. Do you think Nintendo will do anything to make TP challenging in any form?"

ZELDA TP is going to be so hrd your brain will melt.

Even if the Wind Waker was complete, it would be just as bashed. People couldnt take the toon shaded for whatever reason and thats all theres to it, the rest is nitpicking. The game isnt as horrible as you are trying to put it, it has its flaws like any game.

The Revolution itself is really bold, which is why I think this "playing it safe" with TP remote functionality is so lame. They should trust their idea to sell! Not use Zelda to push it a little more.

Yes, they should release the revolution with no launch games while they're at it. It should rely only on its built in UI to sell the remote concept.


Or, Nintendo can do every thing in their power to ensure it has the most successful launch since N64.

FYI Mantidor, I'm also willing to bash Mjora's Mask. This is not about toon shading, it is about thegame itself.

And with regards to "trusting the Rev" and not letting the Rev benefit it, there is absolutely no benefit to doing that. Nintendo has a powerful resource in TP and they would have to be hubristic and prideful NOT to leverage it for the rev. Now is not the time for Nintendo to get big-headed or blindly cocky about their chances for the future, now is the time to bring all resources to bear because there's no denying it that the next console generation will be a big fight and a big test.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

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Originally posted by: mantidor
The Revolution itself is really bold, which is why I think this "playing it safe" with TP remote functionality is so lame. They should trust their idea to sell! Not use Zelda to push it a little more.

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Going in circles again?

You people are making it sound like TP was crucial for the Rev, which would be a terrible, terrible scenario for the future of the console, as has been said, like, a million times, now that I pointed out that, you will say, agreeing with me, again, that Zelda with rev controls wont make or break the revs launch, and we get back to the original point, that this funcionality then really isnt needed.

"FYI Mantidor, I'm also willing to bash Mjora's Mask. This is not about toon shading, it is about thegame itself."

Oh you just have bad taste in games, then ^_^ Majora's Mask is perfect

No, a lot of people are saying that TP is an excellent complement to the revolution's launch. That doesn't "make or break", rather, it "makes or better makes" the launch.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Going in circles again?

You people are making it sound like TP was crucial for the Rev, which would be a terrible, terrible scenario for the future of the console, as has been said, like, a million times, now that I pointed out that, you will say, agreeing with me, again, that Zelda with rev controls wont make or break the revs launch, and we get back to the original point, that this funcionality then really isnt needed.

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Originally posted by: mantidor


Oh you just have bad taste in games, then ^_^ Majora's Mask is perfect

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Originally posted by: jasonditz

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Originally posted by: mantidor
I wish they'd offer some optional high difficulty settings.

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Like boss fights that don't throw dozens of hearts at you...

I have to agree, Wind Waker was an amazing game. Personally it is my 2nd favorite Zelda, behind LTTP (I did not care much for Majora's Mask), sure it had a lack of dungeons and a lame collectathon at the end but it still was an amazing experience. The visuals were stunning and engrossed me more than OOT, the story was quite solid for a Zelda game, the atmosphere was great (time frozen Hyrule anyone? Definately one of my favorite gaming moments), and the gameplay mechanics were flawless. I for one enjoyed sailing, it was relaxing and it had enough action here and there to keep you on your toes. The boss fights were fun, if not a bit easy, but fun none the less, and the final boss fight was definately interesting with one of the coolest Zelda endings ever.

“Wind Waker was a bold move, the kind of move that makes Nintendo so great. The game was incomplete, but it was a fantastic experience for me, it was timeless and absolutely charming, the game is simply unique. Twilight Princess is Nintendo getting coward, giving remote functionality, besides all my other complains, is Nintendo being coward regarding the rev. You cant even compare these two at all.”

Man I just read through all your posts, and you are contradicting yourself left and right. The statement above is so absurd and contradictory that I cannot even come to believe that you fully back up, and wholeheartedly believe, what you are saying or even trying to say.

If “Wind Waker was a bold move, the kind of move that makes Nintendo so great” then
......you obviously missed the boat here....COMPLETELY.....

When you saw the WW trailer.....YOU doubted Nintendo for drastically switching the graphical style....But when you actually played the finished product.....WW was all of a sudden “fantastic”, “charming”, “timeless”!!!! This was a BOLD move by Nintendo right??????

By definition MAN a bold move is a move that is daring, fearless, and risky.......YOU doubt that Nintendo can deliver with the added Revmote functionality......YOU doubt that the game will not see any benefit......YOU have no faith in Nintendo because you feel that they cannot deliver a great product while appeasing both the GC and the REV customer.......NINTENDO may lose you as a customer!!!!........YOU feel this way about Nintendo’s new move for TP right???........then you by DEFINITION have labeled this move BOLD!

HOW can you simply sit back and state that “Twilight Princess is Nintendo getting coward” WHEN YOU YOURSELF HAVE ABSOLUTELY DEFINED NINTENDO’S MOVE AS BOLD!!!!........adding Revmote functionality.......something completely unconventional.......to anything.......is the boldest move for Nintendo........Nintendo has the potential of falling hard.....or even regaining its crown....THAT MAN...........IS COURAGEOUS AND BOLD!!!!.....but to state that adding Revmote functionality........is "cowardly"....even when you do not even know anything about it yet either.....is.....completely......scandalous.....and .....absurd!!!

AND WHY CAN’T WE COMPARE WW and TP????? WHEN CAN YOU NOT COMPARE GAMES THAT ARE BOTH COMPLETLEY ZELDA........and to my absolute surprise.....wow this is a huge revelation.......BOTH GAMES CONTAINED SOMETHING “UNCONVENTIONAL”.........according to you I CANNOT “even compare these two at all”?!?!?!?!

And you yourself stated that WW was “incomplete”........ “but it was a fantastic experience for me, it was timeless and absolutely charming”.......YOU CAN ACTUALLY SAY THAT BECAUSE YOU ACTAULLY PLAYED THE GAME!!!.....NOW......WHY.....IN THE HEELLL.........CAN’T YOU SEE YOUR OWN LOGIC HERE?????.....SOOOOO.....with YOUR OWN ENLIGHTENING LOGIC......you have just agreed.....that EVEN IF TP offers “incomplete” GC support or “incomplete” Revmote functionality........you MAY ACTUALLY find that it is “fantastic”, “charming”, and “timeless” as well!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT SAY FOR SURE UNTIL YOU GAAAD DAAAYMN ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME!!!!! Stop contradicting yourself and stop whining for no apparent reason!!!

That post was blistering on the eyes to read. Use less caps and ellipsis...es.

So...if croumeli's IP was banned, how much do you want to bet PIAC would suddenly not be able to post as well?

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Originally posted by: mantidor
Going in circles again?

You people are making it sound like TP was crucial for the Rev, which would be a terrible, terrible scenario for the future of the console, as has been said, like, a million times, now that I pointed out that, you will say, agreeing with me, again, that Zelda with rev controls wont make or break the revs launch, and we get back to the original point, that this funcionality then really isnt needed.

"FYI Mantidor, I'm also willing to bash Mjora's Mask. This is not about toon shading, it is about thegame itself."

Oh you just have bad taste in games, then ^_^ Majora's Mask is perfect

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hahaha croumeli's post has made my day. Just to be sure, because I think Ive only repeated it like 50 times, I dont think TP will be a bad game. When I said that the GC version will "suffer" because of the functionality, I mean that the standalone GC game, the one I care about, could be better if all the focus is on GC, which is obvious. Our disagreement comes into how much are we willing to accept this "sacrifice" for lack of a better word, I think is unacceptable because Nintendo promised it and got my hype up, some of you think is acceptable because it will get an incentive for people to jump onboard to the Rev and also think that this "sacrifice" wont be of consideration as opposed to what I think. But we all agree that the game will be good.

Mantidor, the GC-portion of the game can only suffer if the game is derailed to add rev controller functionality. No one can say whether that is happening, will happen, or has already happened.

But a lot of us are encouraged by the fact that the game is being delayed instead of rushed, that when they refer to rev functionality as an addition they truly mean an addition as opposed to the sort of "replacement-addition that Ian fears the Rev controller is, and that the game by some reports felt more or less complete last fall when people played its demo. Why would Nintendo bother to go into the completed GC game and retool its guts when they still intend on it being played on the GC? Why wouldn't they overlay an optional control scheme on the complete game that doesn't change anything about the game except how it receives and interprets input?

You seem to be predicting that Nintendo will go into the GC game and dramatically alter the way it plays with a GC controller just so they can add Revolution input, a situation where I cannot possibly imagine any derived benefits!

Or are you proposing that they GC game will be damaged because it will be delayed? Will a few extra months of waiting make the game less of an accomplishment or failure than how Nintendo imbues it with spirit?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Why would you see the SIDE of the ambulance through a rear-view or side-view mirror?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

actually, I would think that including revolution functionality in Twilight Princess is a very offensive move. It adds sugar to the cake. From a few of the Interviews I have read they have been wanting to make Zelda have this sort ofd funtionality for years, but rather than releasing an add-on for the cube..which would definitely be precieved as a sparkling innovationy device as all add-ons do, they are releasing it for the cube with the chance to upgrade the gameplay with the new controller.

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Originally posted by: RiskyChris
No, a lot of people are saying that TP is an excellent complement to the revolution's launch. That doesn't "make or break", rather, it "makes or better makes" the launch.

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I think most GC owners will care about Rev's launch considering that the first initial buyers will be those that have bought a cube and previous Nintendo products.

Majora's Mask is my third favorite Zelda, behind Link's Awakening (the best, if you argue you're wrong) and Wind Waker.
Majora's Mask just had too many dull, tedious parts (far more tedious than sailing and even triforce hunting, the latter of which I didn't mind cuz I only had to find three after I'd beaten the Wind Temple). The sidequests were awesome, incredible even, but the main quest felt a little weary at times.
Wind Waker had a better balance between the two.

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Originally posted by: Mario

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Originally posted by: RiskyChris
No, a lot of people are saying that TP is an excellent complement to the revolution's launch. That doesn't "make or break", rather, it "makes or better makes" the launch.

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Why would GC owners care about the Rev launch?

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"I dont think TP will be a bad game. When I said that the GC version will "suffer" because of the functionality, "

I dont think the game will suffer because of the rev stuff add on because they have work on the gc version for a year to get it just right and they'er not going to mess it up. Add rev support wont break the game, when has aiming the bow been a big part of the zelda difficulty or gameplay, were the game will be broken when it gets improved, add rev controls to the game wont mean that every single part of the game will now have to be changed. Redoing the game and everything before to be thrown out by the fact of revmote is just silly. The cube version has been perfected and it wont be mess with, if the monster move faster or are thougher in the rev version wont make them faster is the cube game mode. And the tp going to change as much on the rev as oot on n64 did changed in oot master quest on gc port.

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
The sidequests were awesome, incredible even, but the main quest felt a little weary at times.

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Originally posted by: mantidor
dont think TP will be a bad game. When I said that the GC version will "suffer" because of the functionality, I mean that the standalone GC game, the one I care about, could be better if all the focus is on GC, which is obvious.

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"Well, since the sidequests were the whole point of the game, I'm not sure that was much a problem...."

I know, that's why it's my third favorite Zelda of all time

Somewhat delayed response here but I was busy on the weekend.

"Rev has a brighter future than the GameCube initially displayed."

I disagree. At the time we were pretty optimistic about the Cube. It was supposed to be Nintendo's big comeback because now they didn't have the cartridges limiting them and they had this awesome dream team of devs like Rare, Silicon Knights, Left Field, and Retro Studios. And Microsoft was a newcomber who clearly didn't know gaming and thus wouldn't be a threat. The Rev's potential is much smaller. Nintendo's reputation in the console market is far more tarnished. It's going to take more to convince someone that this time Nintendo isn't going to underperform and that five years from now we're not going to be in the same boat where virtually no games are being released because support has almost completely dried up. Plus the Rev is so risky. It's offering something very different and we can't say for sure it will be accepted. The Rev has to work the hardest of all of Nintendo's consoles to gain acceptance and it's probably the riskiest system Nintendo has ever released except for the Virtual Boy. So it doesn't have a brighter looking future than the Cube did initially. Brighter than the Cube ended up having? Maybe. But when the Cube was first shown there was a lot more optimism and a lot more hype.

Regarding the whole Zelda issue my point remains that if the Rev needs Zelda at launch then the Rev is screwed. There is no way in hell that Nintendo could successfully sell a brand new concept like the Rev on the strength of a last generation title. It's not a bad idea to cover all their bases and hedge their bets but the Rev needs to stand on it's own two feet and blow everyone away right off the bat. Who honestly, besides hardcore Nintendo fans, do you think is going to give the Rev time to prove itself? The competition is more popular and has more potential for third party support. No one is going to sit around waiting for a title that really demonstrates the remote. It's a new concept no one asked for or wanted. Nintendo has to sell it right away. The way Nintendo is seen by the general gaming public today I'd say that even if the Rev was a more traditional console they would have to make a fantastic first impression or else everyone would just assume it would be another "Nintendo flop". Ever had a situation where someone just didn't have any faith in you and in their mind you seemingly could do no right? If you hadn't seen that person in a few years the next time you met them, to prove them wrong you would have to show them right away. If the first thing you did didn't impress you would be screwed. Nothing you could do would change their opinion. It's the same way with Nintendo. Everyone assumes it's always going to be the same underachievement so Nintendo has to prove them wrong right away because they only have one chance.

So Zelda for the Rev launch can't be a requirement for Nintendo's launch plans. The launch needs to be able stand alone.

I agree with you Ian, if all the Rev has is Zelda:TP to show off its controller then it WILL be a disappointing launch.

Of course, there are shades of grey in-between succes and total failure. The GC launch was a sort of "eh" launch with Rogue Leader and Luigi's Mansion, and only several months later the killer app Smash Bros. The PS2 launch was a failure of course, the games were immensely underwhelming, but then again Sony had a year of luxury and plenty of momentum. The DC launch was pretty well received...I think. And both the PSP and DS launches were sort of not break-out, with the DS correcting that to a greater extent than the PSP. And the XBox 360 also had a sort of "eh" launch, though like the PS2 it also has a year's grace period.

I think we also need to look at how long of a honeymoon period a console gets when launching. It's pretty much a shoe-in that both the PS3 and Rev will sell out at launch on hype or novelty alone.

Actually, come to think of it, let's ditch this old notion of a "system launch" and adopt the "launch window" term used by industry heads because it's pretty well shown that what matters is NOT the launch itself, but after the honeymoon period is over. The XBox 360 has had a semi-drought, but with key titles coming out late spring that may come to an end. The PS3 is said to have 100 games in development, so I don't think they'll have any drought of titles after the launch. But Nintendo? Hmm....

This adds another benefit to the forward-compatibility of TP. Nintendo will surely have less games from third parties than either MS or Sony, that's a fact that won't be rectified overnight. Now, this ISN'T a fact that dooms them, (compare to the XBox's non-existent JPN support at launch, and the sense about a year after its launch that Halo was the only thing worth owning it for) it just means that Nintendo will have to play smart with the resources they have. Another big title at launch like TP will allow Nintendo to relax their release schedule just a little bit longer and hopefully prevent players from feeling any sort of drought at all.

And of course, a "lack-of-proof launch" like you predict Ian, works from the assumption that Nintendo has no games of innovative significance during the launch window. That is a pretty large IF though, so I don't think that the scenario you paint is the most likely one.

~Carmine Red
Kairon@aol.com

I've been suspicious of this being the reason for the delay since it was first announced. Perhaps at GDC we will find out whether this means full 3D sword control or simply just aiming for the bow and camera control via the remote.

And I do think this means Zelda at or within a month of launch of Revolution.

I strongly doubt that the only thing they're adding with all this extra time is rev controller compatibility. I'm interested in finding all the chunka of content and side quests and quirks and nooks and crannys and crooks and grannies they throw in.

But then again...Miyamoto isn't directing it... so I'm sure to be disappointed. *sigh*

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

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I disagree. At the time we were pretty optimistic about the Cube. It was supposed to be Nintendo's big comeback because now they didn't have the cartridges limiting them and they had this awesome dream team of devs like Rare, Silicon Knights, Left Field, and Retro Studios. And Microsoft was a newcomber who clearly didn't know gaming and thus wouldn't be a threat. The Rev's potential is much smaller. Nintendo's reputation in the console market is far more tarnished. It's going to take more to convince someone that this time Nintendo isn't going to underperform and that five years from now we're not going to be in the same boat where virtually no games are being released because support has almost completely dried up. Plus the Rev is so risky. It's offering something very different and we can't say for sure it will be accepted. The Rev has to work the hardest of all of Nintendo's consoles to gain acceptance and it's probably the riskiest system Nintendo has ever released except for the Virtual Boy. So it doesn't have a brighter looking future than the Cube did initially. Brighter than the Cube ended up having? Maybe. But when the Cube was first shown there was a lot more optimism and a lot more hype.

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Zelda is a project with a huge volume of people and complex game development procedures," said Miyamoto, speaking with Official Nintendo Magazine. "As soon as we decided to postpone the game from last year to this year and make the perfect Zelda, all the team were delighted to have the time to work on many ideas.

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Then you go on to call Nintendo cowardly for taking Zelda: TP, which for all we know is shaping up to be a very content-strong game UNLIKE Wind Waker, taking TP and adding just a single aspect of forward compatibility and you call that cowardly. Here is a company that is going for the gold, trying to balance creativity and the pressures of the real world, trying to do its legacy justice WHILE AT THE SAME TIME trying to ensure that it has a future, a company that apologizes to consumers when they run out of DS units or DS lites, a company that has just introduced an entirely new game interface and is taking the leap into the unknown, a company that is the last bastion against the uber-commercialization of mega-corporations like Sony and Microsoft, a company that does all this... and you call them cowardly?



-Ahmen brother. Preach on, preach on.
It'd be a sad sad day if Nintendo every became anything like Sony or Microsoft. I'll even go as for to say that i'd be more content with Nintendo dying out all together over going the Sega route. The day nintendo soley makes game for the dollar is the day i stop giving that dollar to nintendo. I"ve said it before and i'll say it over and over again. Call me a fanboy or whatever, i simply don't care, i've been a nintendo fan since the age of 3 and always saw myself as being one till the day i die. It sounds emo, i know, but its true. It was they're passion of gaming reflected in the games they created, some of the greatest of the ages, that kept me coming back for more again and again. WindWaker was rushed, i see that in hind-sight but at the time of completing it i was still blown away but what a wonderfull experiance it gave off. Thats why i think its sad that when Nintendo tries to keep its fans happy by giving a Zelda release and delivering, it gets thrown in their face because it felt "rushed". Now they do their usual routine of delaying a game to fix the wrongs of the past and all alot of you can see is "gimick this, gimick taht" and "their only out for my dollar". well t heir supposed to be as a company, but the main goal as developers, is to give you the best damn gamin experience you've ever had and make every dollar you dished out count. Thats how i see them going about this.
i don't think its cowardly at all to be the "last place competitor" and tell the world you dont want to be apart of the console war while actually trying to take away steam form a competitors launch. personally i think that takes balls of steal.

"Actually, come to think of it, let's ditch this old notion of a 'system launch' and adopt the 'launch window' term used by industry heads because it's pretty well shown that what matters is NOT the launch itself, but after the honeymoon period is over."

That probably is a better way to look at it. I still think it's really important to make a good first impression in this case because of what Nintendo has promised. I fear that if they don't deliver at launch the gaming media will rag on them for the remote just being a g!mmick and I think it would just overall be better to avoid something like that.

But there is a window period where things can be corrected. I think the crucial time period is from launch until the second Christmas. The first Christmas is usually pretty close to the launch so it doesn't really count. The second Christmas though takes place after the console has been out for at least a year and releases are coming out a regular rate and the demand at that Christmas is more indicative of the real demand from the public, while the first year it's more about hardcore nuts and early adopters. Typically in the first few months after that Christmas we can see where things are going. It was clear that after Christmas 1997 that the Playstation was going to beat the N64. It was clear after Christmas 2002 that the Xbox would beat the Cube for second place. Once that point is reached everyone just assumes that things will stay that way so it's impossible to break out. The "ranking" has been established and that affects people's decisions regarding console purchases. People will be drawn to one console because it's in first while they'll be turned off by another console because it's in last.

That's a very good observation Ian.

And I think that we can all agree that if the Revolution hasn't had any "proof games" by it's second Christmas, THEN we have had a disappointing launch, to put it mildly.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

The media has access to more than just the released games so ragging on the Rev because of the launch games would require a deliberate choice to be negative on the Revolution. I don't recall the media ragging on any system for bad launch titles if some major titles were expected soon. I mean, look at the freaking XCircle. What did the media speak about? Exactly, DoA 4, TES4: O and Halo 3. It is possible to find supporting points for any desired position so if you see mags rag on the Revolution it's not because of anything Nintendo did, it's because they want to rag on the Revolution.

KDR, you've almost convinced me to go republican! Darn liberal out-of-control media!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

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Originally posted by: wandering

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Originally posted by: mantidor
dont think TP will be a bad game. When I said that the GC version will "suffer" because of the functionality, I mean that the standalone GC game, the one I care about, could be better if all the focus is on GC, which is obvious.

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No offence, but, to me, this is a bit like reacting to the unveiling of the TP boxart with 'The box art is fantastic! This is terrible! How could Nintendo betray me like this? If they had focused more on the game and less on making good box art, the game could've been even better!'

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Mantidor, it's said that TP as a gamecube game is basically finished. I don't see how a finished game can get neglected.

If anything, they're using this extra time to implement a Rev-controller overlay option, and to implement a lot of ideas they normally wouldn't have time to put in. Let's not forget, Retro did that MP2 controller demo in two weeks. Even with TPs added complexity, they have at least another 6 months! I'd be pretty surprised if by the end of an ambitious game project you didn't have whole list of awesome ideas you'd love to put in if only you could convince your release-date hungry publisher for more time.

In fact, this revolution forward compatibility may have been just the excuse they needed to give you those extra dungeons and added content that you yearn for. Ironically, you may be getting exactly what you want because Nintendo decided to use TP to leverage the Revolution.

In fact, I'm coming to view this as quite the win-win situation. The Rev gets a huge title that's compatible with its controller and is a big deal, and the GC game gets the luxury of extra time to get polished, get perfected, and get extra dungeons due to the release date being pushed back to coincide with the Rev.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

KDR, you've almost convinced me to go republican! Darn liberal out-of-control media!

Huh? "I hate pink so I went with magenta"? "Sony's business practices are so evil I've decided to buy an XBox"?

The first case implies poor rev functionality, which would be make the press say the controller is just a gimm!ck

So you think any sane person would judge the Rev on an enhanced last-gen game only while completely ignoring native Rev software released and coming? Did people say "That XCircle doesn't deliver anything new, if you put in Halo 2 it looks no better than before"? The only people applying this logic will be the ones who want to bash Nintendo and if they hadn't got Zelda they'd make up something else. "You can't play traditional games on it!" "It's weaker than the XCircle and won't get a single multiplatform release!" "OMG that rod has only two buttons!" "It can only do WiFi!" "Nintendo is for kids!"

oh god, I have to beat this dead horse once more...

"Mantidor, it's said that TP as a gamecube game is basically finished. I don't see how a finished game can get neglected."

Jesus thats even worse! so we could have the game now but have to wait several months to get it just because they are adding the rev part? f!ck that, Ill rather have the game now without it.

"So you think any sane person would judge the Rev on an enhanced last-gen game only while completely ignoring native Rev software released and coming? "

It is the gaming press community, Ill call them anything but sane :P sorry, pgc, not you, but you have had your moments though

So the only reason you're angry is because you have to wait? That's a little naive of you. More than a little, actually.

Nintendo has never been about giving you stuff when you want it, just be happy they're giving you stuff that you'll want.

~Carmine M. red
Kairon@aol.com

Its not just waiting, is waiting for something I dont want and something I wont be able to use. Then again, I think is impossible that the game was finished last year and Nintendo decided to sacrifice the christmas sales to make it a rev launch title, that would be a really dumb thing to do.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a line-item-veto in buying videogames. Like congressional bills, you either buy into the whole thing, or you don't.

I can understand your disappointment and frustration, but your anger is misplaced and useless in the face of the realities of the situation.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com