Topic: Editorial: Playing By Party Lines

[Jonnyboy117]

This thread is for discussion of Bonnie Ruberg's editorial, which you can read here:

Playing By Party Lines

[Famicom]

These days I don't really buy that guys only play with guy characters. Maybe kids do that, but me and my circle of friends whom are all in our 20s aren't gender specific with our character selection at all. Heck, one of my male friends picks nothing BUT girls (which is another issue entirely). That said, having never met an experienced female gamer I can't really comment on their choices, but most newbie girls I've met do either go for the female character or the hunky guy. And I never put anymore thought into it then that.

[Terranigma Freak]

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What's the likelihood Nintendo's next big game is going to star a super-powerful woman? Probably not so good. Alas, will videogames be permanently populated by helpless, girly girls?

Well now here's an interesting comment. Maybe Nintendo don't release their next big game starring a super powerful women is because... women don't even care or buy the games. When is the next big game starring super-powerful going to arrive... how about March or somewhere around then?

I'm really annoy that even Nintendo fans ignore Nintendo's own epic strategy role playing game, Fire Emblem. FE7 released in 2003 starred a women. Now, FE8 coming later this year also stars a female lead. Eirik, like Lyndis, takes on the important role right from the start. They're not the love interest of the main hero only to join later in the game. They start out right there, right now, kicking the crap out of everything in sight.

Sure, there are a few damsels that needs saving in Fire Emblem, but the amount of all powerful women far outweights the damsels in distress. Most of the women in Fire Emblem makes Samus look tame. Tell Nintendo to release more Fire Emblem games if you want super-powerful women. There's probably enough super-powerful women in the entire Fire Emblem series to rival the number of Pokemon.

[Bill Aurion]

Heck, one of my male friends picks nothing BUT girls (which is another issue entirely).

I'm the same way! ^_^

[mantidor]

I dont know about games being unbalanced for the female characters, my brother always humiliates me with Zelda in SSBM >_< and my little cousin use to creamed me with Orchid in Killer Instinct back in the good old SNES days. Yes, Im really bad at fighting games, but those characters are in no way weak, my brother puts up a really good fight with Zelda when playing with more skilled players.

[Ian Sane]

My brother refuses to play female characters in games.  If we're playing a multiplayer game and there aren't enough male characters for everyone he insists that he gets to play as a guy.  Interestly enough when we play fighting games with random select he won't care if he ends up with a female.  In fact he insists that we only play fighting games with him using random select.  He's a little insane.

For those that say female fighting game characters are too weak play Mortal Kombat II where Mileena just crushes everyone.

The main reason that there aren't that many strong female characters in games is because in most games those characters aren't designed for women to play as, they're designed for men to oogle at.  Note how most female game characters are babes.  The reason for this obviously is because guys play games more than girls and most games are designed by men.

Plus I find that in general that women are more interested in traditional male interests than men and interested in traditional female interests.  Sports is a traditional male interest yet you'll have no problem finding girls who like playing sports.  However with something more traditionally female like clothing you'll have a harder time finding men interested.  This isn't just with games it's with virtually all forms of entertainment.  Girls like girl stuff and guy stuff, guys only like guy stuff.  So in order to appeal to the widest demographic and make the most money you're better off making guy stuff.

[NiGHTS]

hahaha, she must be a noob female melee player.  if she new anything about melee at all she would know that sheik (a GIRL!) is one of the top tier characters!  and princess peach is a high playing character.  shiek can beat anybody.  people are still debating whether she is the best character in the game.  i don't know what kind of tournament she went to but if she were to go to a REAL tournament she would find that the majority of people will be playing as sheik.  it is hard to acknowledge this editorial since it is mainly based on opinion.  there is no hard evidence or even a small survey done to confirm her point.  this obviosly only took about an hour to write.

[KDR_11k]

All I can say is: WTF?
I don't see many games with character selection defining the females as weak. Well, unless you mean that as in "weak but quick". They're usually as good or even better than the male characters because they usually have the speed advantage. It's pretty rare that you see a slow but strong female character, definitely nothing like Astaroth, Bowser or Potemkin.
For singleplayer games, yes, the females are often the damsels in distress and don't do much on their own because it's a cliché "knight in shining armor rescues the princess" storyline. Toadstool and Zelda were damsels in distress when they first appeared and weren't designed to have an active role in any game, they are made to be weak and in need of a hero, not to star in their own games. Tetra from Windwaker would be a counterexample: Because N didn't want to have Zelda participate while being the damsel in distress they gave her two "personalities" with one being the damsel in distress and the other one being the "bad ass" pirate who rescues the hero more often than the other way around. Expanding upon Zelda and Mario was a mistake in regards to their characters, neither Zelda nor Peach (nor Link nor Mario) were designed for filling a more complex role and neither fits into modern games that demand more elaborate characters.

[NiGHTS]

oh ya, and i forgot about talim!  the most played character in any soul calibur two tournament!  (by the way, talim is a GIRL!)

[Ian Sane]

"It's pretty rare that you see a slow but strong female character, definitely nothing like Astaroth, Bowser or Potemkin."

That makes sense logical due to the obvious physical differences between men and women.  You could have some super powerhouse Chyna-like female character in a game but if there's going to be some huge mammoth powerhouse it logically makes more sense for it to be male since in real life that's the more likely scenario.

Though I think a Chyna-like character would be a good fit for a fighting game.  It would be a refreshing change from the usual cliche fighting game characters.  

[Pale]

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Originally posted by: NiGHTS
hahaha, she must be a noob female melee player.  if she new anything about melee at all she would know that sheik (a GIRL!) is one of the top tier characters!  and princess peach is a high playing character.  shiek can beat anybody.  people are still debating whether she is the best character in the game.  i don't know what kind of tournament she went to but if she were to go to a REAL tournament she would find that the majority of people will be playing as sheik.  it is hard to acknowledge this editorial since it is mainly based on opinion.  there is no hard evidence or even a small survey done to confirm her point.  this obviosly only took about an hour to write.

I had to stop reading there because of the fact that Sheik/Zelda rocks so much.  I challenge anyone to beat me at a 1 on 1 smash bros. match where I play as sheik.

[RadicalKelsi]

    I thought the article was pretty interesting. As a girl gamer...I understand how it feels to be the odd man out. (er...woman rather). We're still few and far between. However..when it comes to playing a girl or guy character, it's never been something I worried about. I just play. To be honest, I get enough respect just for being able to play videogames. When I play with a bunch of guys, I pick whatever charcter suits me, be it a guy or girl. And I can't say how guys would feel, but I can't see why a guy would judge a girl by what character they pick.  I guess what I'm saying is I 've never seen any reaction from picking a character. It depends more on how you act. I don't play games and get all giggly and ask "what do I do now" every five seconds. I think that's where stereotypes come from, and to be honest, if you act like that you won't be considered a true gamer.
     And as for girl characters mainly being "weaker" that is not entirely true, as like a few of you have already siad, characters like sheik are awesome. Also, many games make male characters stronger and female characters quicker, because it reflects reality a little more closely. Plus, it would be boring if all characters were made entirely equal.

[odifiend]

Zelda physically transforms into a man to become shiek, doesn't she? Bill?
But zelda's aerial lightning kick can take anybody, anyway.

[Jonnyboy117]

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Originally posted by: NiGHTS
hahaha, she must be a noob female melee player.  if she new anything about melee at all she would know that sheik (a GIRL!) is one of the top tier characters!  and princess peach is a high playing character.  shiek can beat anybody.  people are still debating whether she is the best character in the game.  i don't know what kind of tournament she went to but if she were to go to a REAL tournament she would find that the majority of people will be playing as sheik.  it is hard to acknowledge this editorial since it is mainly based on opinion.  there is no hard evidence or even a small survey done to confirm her point.  this obviosly only took about an hour to write.

Editorials are, by definition, opinion pieces.  Lay off the personal insults or you will be banned.

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: odifiend
Zelda physically transforms into a man to become shiek, doesn't she? Bill?

Zing...

[mantidor]

Quote
Originally posted by: NiGHTS
hahaha, she must be a noob female melee player.  if she new anything about melee at all she would know that sheik (a GIRL!) is one of the top tier characters!  and princess peach is a high playing character.  shiek can beat anybody.  people are still debating whether she is the best character in the game.  i don't know what kind of tournament she went to but if she were to go to a REAL tournament she would find that the majority of people will be playing as sheik.  it is hard to acknowledge this editorial since it is mainly based on opinion.  there is no hard evidence or even a small survey done to confirm her point.  this obviosly only took about an hour to write.

it wouldve be better if you actually took the time to read the article, as she expresses, Sheik is such a bad ass character because she changed her identity, as we all remember no one expected Shiek to be a woman, much less princess Zelda, which implies in some way that as a woman she's weak.

[bonnieruberg]

Hello, this is Bonnie Ruberg, author of the editorial in question.

To respond to some of your concerns...  Well, let's go down the line.

Famicon - you've never put much thought into the issue because you're a guy, and as such part of the gender majority, therefore there's no reason (except general interest) you would be thinking about it.  As a girl, it's good, and interesting, to address these things.

Ian Sane - yup, (almost) every videogame girl's a babe.  Maybe that's not a problem if you're guys looking at her, but when you're trying to identity with her, it gets strange.  And why can't guys like girls things, but girls can like guy things?  That's a whole other social issue.

Terrinigma Freak - if you think no women care about or buy videogames, you're living in a hole.  The girl gamer world may be small, but we're growing, no thanks to guys who stereotype women.

Bill Aurion - I think you're awesome.

KDR-11k - yes, weak but quick.  Not weak like bad, weak like weak.

To everyone complaining that there ARE good women characters - well, duh, there are always exceptions.  And certain characters, like Peach, may be strong in one games and presented as weak in a dozen others.  No one, especially not me, is saying there are NO strong female characters.  If that's what you're concerned with you're missing the point.

If you have any comments on the editorial or girl gaming in general, to write to me at bonnie@planetgamecube.com and strike up a constructive chat on the subject.  Also, feel free to write to me and let me know about girl gamer issues you'd rather see addressed, if you feel unsatisfied with this one.  Otherwise thanks for reading the editorial.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

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Zelda physically transforms into a man to become shiek, doesn't she? Bill?

Nope, its just a disguise, Sheik is refered to as a girl.

Besides you can tell by the voice and the body structure that Sheik is female.

[DoAsInfinity67]

It's true that girl gamers are a rarity, but nobody even really considers homosexual gamers. I think our minorities might rival eachother in number, actually. Heh...

At least there are women that are cool and kickass in games nowadays. So at least it's progressing. Homosexual guys in games are still horrible stereotypes, if they're in there at all that is.

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: Avinash_Tyagi

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Zelda physically transforms into a man to become shiek, doesn't she? Bill?

Nope, its just a disguise, Sheik is refered to as a girl.

Besides you can tell by the voice and the body structure that Sheik is female.

What?  Sheik is only refered to as a girl in Melee because Zelda and Sheik are known as one...Before her identity was revealed, her alter-ego definitely was playing as a male...

[ruby_onix]

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...Sheik is such a bad ass character because she changed her identity, as we all remember no one expected Shiek to be a woman, much less princess Zelda, which implies in some way that as a woman she's weak.

I was always under the impression that Zelda (in OoT) was more powerful as Zelda than as Sheik. Sheik was Zelda restrained, so that Gannon wouldn't take notice of her. Also, as Zelda she was "too dignified" for the hands-on approach that Sheik took. Perhaps more people need to re-evaluate what they see as "strength".

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Nope, its just a disguise, Sheik is refered to as a girl.

Magical disguise. How deep did it run? Was she still Zelda underneath, and may have been physically attracted to Link? Or did she become male, in body and spirit, and develop homosexual feelings for Link? Or was Sheik just an effeminate guy, with a warrior's camaraderie with Link? And how much of any of those feelings did she retain? We'll never know. That mystery is part of the appeal of Sheik.

[Bill Aurion]

Aha, this is running way too deep now... ^_^

My take on it was that it was merely a cosmetic change (with spiritual shield hiding her power)...For one to change in body and spirit, you'd think they would also lose all memories of their original self  during that switch, which is not the case...Unless Hyrule magic is just like that...But I'm not going to think about it that way...  

[gally]

First off, I'm male, despite my name (it's a nickname based on my last name contracted).

Anyway, I do have a real problem with people who refuse to play as a member of the opposite sex. I have no problem playing as a girl or woman if I happen to like the character, and I've felt that way since I was an elementary schooler.

I'm always happy when a girl character is popular with boys, especially if it's based on the character being interesting, and NOT on sex appeal (i.e. Punky Brewster, for instance). It shows an ability to exit from the defined roles that one can only like one's own gender or identify with one's own gender. On a side note, I do think acceptance of homosexuality will help heterosexuals be able to admit to identifying with the opposite sex more.

I would like to see a girl character who is a mixture of "girly" and "strong" - i.e., uniquely human. In other words, she shows fear, but acts brave. Not a "badass", not a wimp, but a hero trying to fight the odds. Heck, I'd like to see a *girl* character, even, not just a woman. Remember Little Nemo the Dream Master, in which a boy who looked to be around 7 years old saved the dream world? Maybe make a girl hero like that.

What do you all think?

[KnowsNothing]

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When you spot a girl confidently picking up a controller, it makes you go all fuzzy inside.

Absolute truth.

I personally have no problem playing as a female character in any game.  Peach pwned in Mario Kart 64, and was only replaced with Toadette in Double Dash!!  Taki from Soul Calibur is my favorite character, followed by Cassandra (well, Link's my fav of course, but I don't play with him that much ^_^).  And although she wasn't THE main character in ToS, Sheena is positivley awesome.  I PREFER playing as female characters in alot of games because they're usually quick, which fits my style (Sheik, although she's not my best Melee character, certainly holds her own in the fray).  As for being weak, they may inflict less damage per hit, but it mainly depends on the person controlling them.  Which is of course what this editorial's about.  What.

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So, they set her up with Jigglypuff and, needless to say, she cutely jumped herself off the playing field and cutely floated to her doom enough times to use up four cute lives without receiving a single point of damage.

Hilarity

[SgtShiversBen]

In Smash Bros, I use none other than Jigglypuff.  That little puff girl whoops everyone's ass and takes names.  My friend uses Samus and always laughs how it's the two girls (character wise) that remain standing while Link and Ness are at the bottom of the stage, dead.  Shows that the girls are tough as iron nuts.   Personally though, I think Toad was the best character in MK64, but Peach did always give me a run for my money.